The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 1, 2012 12:55:06 GMT -5
DH and I watched this last night. www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dropout-nation/While watching it, and after watching, I am at a total loss for words. What those kids (and teachers) have to deal with is completely off the charts. In a lot of the cases the worst abuse done to the kids was by their own parents. How are the teachers supposed to overcome that? In many of these cases trying to keep the family together at all costs appeared to cause more harm than good. I don't know what the solution is but think it sucks many of these kids started out life with so much against them. Makes me glad the biggest issue I have to deal with so far is DD forgetting her homework
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 1, 2012 13:06:31 GMT -5
Welcome to social services, where the goal is to give crappy parents their children, to the detriment of those children.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 13:07:48 GMT -5
Parents know what is best for their kids.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 1, 2012 13:12:04 GMT -5
I feel for these kids.they need to be removed from their homes and given to people who could love, care for, and motivate them to succeed. Instead they are someone's paycheck.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 1, 2012 13:21:48 GMT -5
Zib - you've worked in social services, correct? Do you have any ideas?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 15:24:15 GMT -5
Unfortunately the alternative is not all that great either...
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Oct 1, 2012 15:27:42 GMT -5
Not when those parents are addicts, abusive, criminals, gang bangers, and the various other dregs of society.
It's not PC to admit it anymore, but some people are a waste of skin and air. They shouldn't be allowed to care for house plant, much less children. Yeah, yeah, second chances, the deck was stacked against them, I don't know what they've had to overcome, etc., etc. Tough shit. Their kids deserve better, and they aren't able to provide it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 1, 2012 16:03:45 GMT -5
The only decent places I have seen were honestly sheriff youth ranches. The foster homes I dealt with were decent enough and those women tried but by the time they get them, the girls are in very bad shape mentally and emotionally from being left in their homes too long before being finally removed. Those kids need to be removed way before in order for them to beat the odds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2012 16:06:14 GMT -5
I didn't mean to suggest all the alternatives were bad, especially relatively.. Just wish we had better alternatives...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 1, 2012 16:11:22 GMT -5
So do I.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 1, 2012 16:12:36 GMT -5
The stories these kids tell you would just break your heart and the sad part is that they expect nothing more in their lives. Its "normal" for them so going to a decent family and seeing how they live would be meaningless.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Oct 1, 2012 16:20:57 GMT -5
Only if they do it on a temporary basis. If they stay there long enough that becomes their new normal.
Any kid who grew up on welfare and turned into a productive citizen can tell you that your normal can definitely change.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 1, 2012 18:00:19 GMT -5
They seem to always get sent back to the hell hole. We had over 70 people in my GAL class. 3 are left, that's how bad it is for these well meaning people to realize they can't help at all. Just mouth meaningless platitudes. That's why I took older kids. They're messed up but they aren't going back to hell, either.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 1, 2012 21:05:10 GMT -5
At one point DH and I were going to consider adoption. We were happy to open our home to a younger child but found many of the agencies in our area required "open adoptions" for younger kids. I did some research and read some blogs and quickly came to the conclusion I had no desire to play social worker to the baby's mother. The stories I read of adopting older kids usually indicated they came with more emotional baggage than I felt equipped to handle.
We we love to have another child in our home but are not equipped to handle the emotional scars most of these kids have to work through.
That's why I respect the hell out of anyone who adopts older kids. They are much stronger than I am.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2012 7:20:25 GMT -5
You have to be very careful when you do. If you're lucky, you just give a nice home to someone that will never bond with you, because they can't trust you or if they do love you, they feel guilty for betraying their crap parent. If you're unlucky, there's worse that can happen and social workers lie because they want the child placed. There is one way to handle the open adoption and that is to not ever let the bio parent into your home and to make sure the child does not give out address or phone number. All visits can be done in a supervised, sometimes by GALS or CASAS, at the agency. They make sure bio child is not pumped for info on you. Schools won't give info to bio parent either if you notify school not to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2012 7:23:12 GMT -5
Well, since we apparently need to find people to "do jobs most American's won't do", then here is the perfect solution. So, instead of importing a whole new subclass of second citizen human beings via illegal immigration to do our scut work, we now just use a subclass of our own human beings. s.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2012 7:25:51 GMT -5
These kids deserve better but until the nanny govt steps in and does what's right for the kids instead of buying their parents votes, you will have generation after generation of this crap. One generation removed from their parents and most welfare and it's mentality would be gone. Funny to watch the movie 60s where education and civility was so stressed by all cultures and to see what welfare has done to the country. Or not so funny.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2012 7:32:53 GMT -5
The Way We Never Were... seriously, a good read...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2012 7:35:55 GMT -5
The kids deserve to be taught that they can indeed rise above their circumstances. Yes, in life, there are going to be people raised by crappy parents and of course, CPS, should make sure children are in a safe home. But, that doesn't mean you or i can't do anything. One of my son's teen friends has a single mom who is in and out of jobs, in and out of relationships, has moved from one squalored apt to the next, had 2 new babies to 2 different guys just recently and probably drinks alot and /or possibly drugs but of that i can't say. Anyway, i call this kid my 'favorite" and he hangs out at our house all the time, he eats dinner with us, i drive him places he needs to go, (checking with his mom to make sure that is OK) and we treat him like family. He knows he always can call me if he needs anything or a place to go. I leave that door open to him. I can't really do anything to change his home life. And, his mom does love him in her own way and is mostly a nice person but has just choosen a difficult path. There are KIDS all around you. Do something to brighten a kid's day.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 2, 2012 8:39:19 GMT -5
"These kids deserve better but until the nanny govt steps in and does what's right for the kids instead of buying their parents votes, you will have generation after generation of this crap. One generation removed from their parents and most welfare and it's mentality would be gone."
The problem is not that the government is trying to curry favor with the parents, it's that there is no money to help resolve the problem. If they take a kid away from a neglectful family they either have to house them in crowded juvie centers or farm them out to the foster care system, which is sometimes good but often terrible. It would be good in theory to step in quickly and terminate the parental rights to these kids to try to get them adopted out into a better environment, the younger the better, but people want to adopt babies, not young kids who might have had permanent damage either from drug or alcohol in the womb or neglect/abuse. Again in theory if we set up home-like orphanages where the kids are treated well the State could raise the kids successfully, but in a time when we can't afford to repair our roads and bridges where are we going to get the funds to establish some really good quality orphanages? Or do the kids just get warehoused someplace as cheaply as possible until they're 18?
I don't know the answer. I don't think there is a good one.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2012 9:27:39 GMT -5
12 months a year would be better. They lose themselves both educationally and every other way in even a few weeks. A month would be disaster. Are you kidding about the parents? There's a big hue and cry about tying welfare benefits to kids attendance in school. It places an "unfair" burden on poor parents. Bullshit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2012 9:49:29 GMT -5
You honestly want the state deciding who is 'good' parents, and taking away elementary school kids to live in boarding schools so they can be indoctrinated in what the state feels is an appropriate education/social norms?
I mean, I know what you are saying, but I don't think you realize what it is that you are saying...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2012 10:09:00 GMT -5
Thing is - I saw the same show on my PBS - there was one kids who was struggling with bad parents (IIRC they were alcoholics) one of the Deans at the school let him live in her house (18 year old junior) for the last couple months of the school year. Guess how he repaid her? He punched another student out on the final day of the school year with just two hours left in the school day and got expelled. By the time these kids get to high school, their behaviors have already been learned and imprinted - there is only so much that can be done at that point...
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 2, 2012 10:12:33 GMT -5
"I figure boarding school for 9 months out of the year has to be cheaper than foster care and all of the resources that the states are currently spending." The only private boarding schools we have around here are ultra elite (and expensive). Somehow I don't see them allowing the riff raff to attend there along with all the sons and daughters of the 1% After all, their parents are forking over the big bucks so little Biffy and Skip don't have to mingle with the lower classes.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Oct 2, 2012 11:10:08 GMT -5
My vote is for the state to pay for private boarding schools. The kids need to be given a new normal to break out of the cycle. If you start them boarding soon enough, they can still have contact with the parents, but they will be given tools and understand that their parents lives aren't the only option. Really it's a win-win... the system can still say.. "Gee parents are the best option and we haven't terminated parental or familial rights, but jr still gets out of the crappy environment" I figure boarding school for 9 months out of the year has to be cheaper than foster care and all of the resources that the states are currently spending. I used to volunteer for a program that was similar to your describing. 12 month round home for the kids while they attended school. SOme of the stories I heard were heart breaking. Some stay until they are 18 and graduate then released with no place to go. It's a place to get kids our of their family situations before they end up in juvie.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2012 11:33:36 GMT -5
If the places are doing their jobs, they should be onto the military, a vocational Ed school, a community college, or college itself. GALS and social services for older kids are already talking to them about what is happening after high school. I think it's great that they get out of high school without getting knocked up, jailed, or a drug addict. That, in itself is a miracle.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2012 11:38:07 GMT -5
There are other boarding school than the ones for the elite. This would make a great place for teachers with no jobs, like new ones. Some might even be willing to board and then there'd be supervision. This would also make jobs for unemployed people. Or displaced home makers.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 2, 2012 11:40:19 GMT -5
Your alternative is what is happening already. Generation after generation of poor parenting and it gets passed on. Yes, the state already does get involved in parenting, it needs to be more so. If you're incapable of raising your child decently, then someone else needs to. Raising feral and uneducated citizens is not the way we should go. Perhaps if bad parents knew they would lose their children so if they LOVE them so much, theyll clean up their act to keep their children.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 2, 2012 12:10:36 GMT -5
The kids deserve to be taught that they can indeed rise above their circumstances. Yes, in life, there are going to be people raised by crappy parents and of course, CPS, should make sure children are in a safe home. But, that doesn't mean you or i can't do anything. One of my son's teen friends has a single mom who is in and out of jobs, in and out of relationships, has moved from one squalored apt to the next, had 2 new babies to 2 different guys just recently and probably drinks alot and /or possibly drugs but of that i can't say. Anyway, i call this kid my 'favorite" and he hangs out at our house all the time, he eats dinner with us, i drive him places he needs to go, (checking with his mom to make sure that is OK) and we treat him like family. He knows he always can call me if he needs anything or a place to go. I leave that door open to him. I can't really do anything to change his home life. And, his mom does love him in her own way and is mostly a nice person but has just choosen a difficult path. There are KIDS all around you. Do something to brighten a kid's day. Shooby - my one failed experiment at that...DD made a friend in daycare who we later figured out was the second out of wedlock child to her mother. OK, stuff happens - then we find out the girl, her sister, and her mother are sleeping on one matress in the grandmother's house and the father is a drug user who is almost never around. OK, won't hold that against the kid. We figure she might like to do some family stuff with us so invite her to a local event. The mom calls and asks if there's any chance we could get an extra ticket so the dad can come and they can have some family time together. okaaay - we didn't even say anything when the mom suggested we meet at a local mcdonalds so the druggie dad would not know where we live, so he wouldn't get it in his mind to steal from us to support his habit (her words, not ours). So we can't leave our daughter unsupervised with the mom/family because the dad might show up unannounced and ask about where she lives, we can deal with that. The final straw was when we had the friend over and I found them in DD's room with the door closed. I opened it and our pet comes streaking out. DD appears visibly disturbed. The friend just gets up and walks out calm as could be. I ask DD what happened after the friend's mom picked her up and she said the friend was choking our pet with it's collar and threatened to do the same to her if she told. DD was 6 at the time, as was the friend. We pulled DD out of daycare the next day and told them why. So sorry, I'm done trying to be the beacon of light in some messed up kids life. She was 6 for god's sake.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 2, 2012 12:15:14 GMT -5
"I ask DD what happened after the friend's mom picked her up and she said the friend was choking our pet with it's collar and threatened to do the same to her if she told." That is truly disturbing ETA: I know a family who had a foster kid who set their cat on fire. This child was also only 6 yrs old. She had been severely abused by both her biological parents and then by a different foster family. By the time this loving family got her she seemed beyond help and they couldn't have her around because they were afraid she might harm other kids in the family. This was several years ago and I sometimes wonder what this child is doing now. sometimes it is hard to help a child once they are so far gone.
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