susanb
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Post by susanb on Sept 5, 2012 18:19:31 GMT -5
DH's grandfather is a WWII veteran. He actually stormed the beaches of Normandy on D Day. He saw a lot of death. Then, he lived through cold war.
He had a lot of reasons to be pessimistic about his future and about the future of the nation, even the world. Instead of being paralyzed by pessimism, he was/is one of the most generative and optimistic people you could ever meet.
At the end of the month, we will go and celebrate his 90th birthday. He still lives by himself and takes care of thing like yard work at his rental properties. He runs and lifts weights 3 days a week. There aren't many men alive today who were there on D-day. I have little doubt that his unwavering optimism is what has kept him alive and active.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Sept 5, 2012 18:53:40 GMT -5
The federal govt is making all kinds of military equipment available to local police forces. Some cities are getting armored personnel carriers. Some are getting aircraft for free or cheap. The federal govt supplies tons of fully automatic rifles to police stations. Is there any rational reason for this other then the federal govt is expecting some trouble some time in the future? Why else would the federal govt spend all that money just to give it to local police? They are preparing for martial law. Maybe you should move to a safer country.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 5, 2012 18:55:08 GMT -5
The Mayans failed to tell us of the zombie invasion of December 2012.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 5, 2012 19:00:37 GMT -5
The federal govt is making all kinds of military equipment available to local police forces. Some cities are getting armored personnel carriers. Some are getting aircraft for free or cheap. The federal govt supplies tons of fully automatic rifles to police stations. Is there any rational reason for this other then the federal govt is expecting some trouble some time in the future? Why else would the federal govt spend all that money just to give it to local police? Well, goodness, it's not like the police are facing criminals armed with machine guns and military hardware bought over the internet. Not like they're chasing terrorists and crazies who shoot up movie theaters in the middle of the night. What rational reason could they possibly have to needing bigger hardware? It's good you're hear to be the voice of reason...
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Sept 5, 2012 19:19:51 GMT -5
Aw, thanks, Cretinous. He really is the best.
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adela76
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Post by adela76 on Sept 5, 2012 19:23:55 GMT -5
Well, goodness, it's not like the police are facing criminals armed with machine guns and military hardware bought over the internet. Not like they're chasing terrorists and crazies who shoot up movie theaters in the middle of the night. What rational reason could they possibly have to needing bigger hardware? It's good you're hear to be the voice of reason... when was the last time you remember hearing of a criminal with a machine gun? The New York City police shot 14 bystanders when the guy killed his old boss at the empire state bldg. They were using semi-automatics I imagine. If they had been using fully automatics..... The police kill more innocent people every year then bad people kill police. Reconcile that fact with your post. And you have a source to back up that fact, of course?
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 5, 2012 19:58:36 GMT -5
Message deleted by milee.
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Loopdilou
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AKA Mrs. Dark Honor
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 5, 2012 19:59:55 GMT -5
They saw the announcement for the Red Dawn reboot and thought North Korea was really planning to invade?
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 5, 2012 20:07:03 GMT -5
You need to decide what point you're trying to make first. My point stands. Police face a scary law enforcement environment these days. I live near the aurora theatre, and as long as that kind of thong is going on, you can't convince me otherwise.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 5, 2012 20:08:42 GMT -5
Not sure on the motives. Could be just pork spending or could be nefarious. The one thing that keeps me from getting too worried about underhanded motives is how decentralized all the various departments are. It is hard enough to get the local sheriff and police to communicate and work together and neither of them work well with the feds... so it would be tough for any sort of central agency to harness and use all this firepower for their own purposes because too many local cheeses would need to be brought into the fold.
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swamp
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Don't be a fool. Call me!
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Post by swamp on Sept 5, 2012 20:13:25 GMT -5
And the Feds refuse to cooperate with the local cheeses, they swoop in and dictate "how it's going to be" and things go downhill from there.....
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 5, 2012 20:26:54 GMT -5
so far the only two reasonable reasons given for the feds to militarize local police are the reason I gave and pork spending. Yeah. I don't disagree with the assessment about forming infrastructure. How easy it would be in practice to actually access that infrastructure - who knows? But yes, I agree with your assessment of the motives.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Sept 5, 2012 20:32:59 GMT -5
so far the only two reasonable reasons given for the feds to militarize local police are the reason I gave and pork spending. Mexico has a very unstable government. The heads of police officers are literally rolling in the streets. Drug cartels have machine guns. Given the fact that we share a border with Mexico, that seems like a good reason for police to have automatic weapons.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Sept 5, 2012 20:43:26 GMT -5
We know you predict doom and gloom for all, Cretinous. I grew up in the country and learned how to raise and butcher chickens and cows. I also learned how to hunt, chop firewood, garden, can food and irrigate (both flood irrigation with tarps and with pumps/pipes).
If you really think doom and gloom are going to befall us, I suggest you learn all of those skills. An EMT/paramedic course might be a good idea as well.
Finally, perhaps you should buy a machine gun of your own.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Sept 5, 2012 20:57:09 GMT -5
Thanks, Cretinous. Really, I can only take credit for learning how to can food. My parents taught me or forced me to learn the rest of it.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Sept 6, 2012 6:50:14 GMT -5
They are preparing for civil war. They hope the police will be on their side. The war on drugs is a farce, but it keeps lots of folks employed and if you're stoned, you don't want to do anything else.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 6, 2012 8:17:09 GMT -5
Not to prolong this ridiculous thread, but why in your theory would the federal government prepare for a civil war or massive unrest by arming the state and local police forces? They answer to different authorities, have different agendas, and usually state and federal authorities are at odds on how to handle things or whose turf is whose. They can't even get along now, so how would they get along during the zombie apocalypse? They would be really arming the wrong set of folks, as a better plan would just be beefing up natl guard and military facilities instead. Arming the state, county, and local folks would just result in more threats to federal rule and arming potentially more opponents to their big conspiritorial agenda.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 6, 2012 8:26:26 GMT -5
I don't quite follow your dire predictions. Our country survived a Great Depression and a dust bowl without having citizens running amok in the streets.
Personally I would rather the police have lots of weapons than the criminals.
And where I live we do have a serious drug problem - lots of meth labs. Periodically one of the meth heads will go crazy and start shooting things, sometimes other druggies, sometimes random neighbors. I count on our local law enforcement to put a bullet in their brains before they do too much damage. I don't think Barney Fife with a bullhorn would really slow one of the meth freaks down, IMHO.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 6, 2012 17:39:31 GMT -5
And law enforcement managed for decades without modern forensic technology tools too. But better technology helps them do their job better in a modern world facing modern threats. Plus they can catch crimes and criminals that couldn't have been stopped decades ago. Would you prefer they get rid of them and go back to the past? If a helicopter helps the police track a fleeing felon through an urban jungle, would you prefer we just let the fugitives disappear into the night like they did when they had to follow people only on foot? Perhaps you'd prefer horses?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2012 17:47:39 GMT -5
Are you saying that the militarization of local police is a non-issue and I am wrong to worry about it? YES!
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 6, 2012 17:49:46 GMT -5
Are the feds arming local police with better forensic tools? I have not heard that. I did hear that the NYPD shot 14 innocent bystanders while trying to stop a gunman. But we quibble. Are you saying that the militarization of local police is a non-issue and I am wrong to worry about it? I'm sure some people thought that giving police cars instead of horses was militarizing them! And yes, the FBI provides forensic services to all levels of law enforcement. Better services, training, and technology to keep up with modern needs. By the way, you haven't explained how my other question works into your conspiracy theory...
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 7, 2012 7:12:23 GMT -5
"What was Germany's experience with ending their depression?"
The Germans elected a charismatic speaker who promised to put everyone to work and make the trains run on time. For a time his policies were successful and the German people supported him, but gradually the leader began to take some of their freedoms away, especially Jewish freedoms. The Germans began to get uneasy about this, and the leader began to get paranoid, retaliating against any opposition, which culminated in the Night of the Long Knives, where his followers rounded up and killed the opposition leaders. After that, most Germans were too frightened to go against the new leader and his party; the new party began an aggressive bid to take over surrounding real estate, and we had world war II.
What part of this do you think the US might copy? A charismatic leader might terminate our freedoms and start a police state? In a county as large and diverse and as freedom loving as ours?
Imagine what would happen if Obama rounded up the prominent Republicans and had them shot tonight. By tomorrow there would be a million people on the White House lawn with pitchforks and torches ready to burn the place down, and all the prominent democrats would be right in there at the front of the crowd. We do not tolerate tyrants.
I'm not saying there won't be bad economic times ahead. There might be. The economy may run off a cliff. We may be forced to turn our lawns into veggie gardens and raise chickens in the back yard. But would we stand around and allow a dictator to take over our government? Nope.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 7, 2012 9:16:19 GMT -5
"I don't think you will lose your liberties all at once, but gradually. Then something big happens and you lose a lot more liberties. "
Possibly in countries where the culture is to accept government authority, like Japan or Korea.
How many large countries don't have gun control laws? Countries like Canada, Great Britain, France, etc. Why don't we have more aggressive gun control laws in the US? Because so many of our citizens say the government can only take their weapons from their cold dead hands. The US is rapid about our defense of our personal liberties (except when it comes to birth control).
You're scenario of a massive civil war with a dictator trying to use the combined fire power of the state militias, the sheriffs, the police departments and the military to enslave the US population is of course possible, and maybe in the event of something catastrophic like an asteroid hitting the earth and carpeting the world with noxious ash or a zombie Apocalypse this might even be a likely turn of events.
How likely, though, is such a grand, wide scale catastrophe? More likely our bad times would be more along the lines of a long economic depression, possibly a pandemic flu outbreak, or continual weather shifts (and subsequent crop/farming issues) due to global warming.
I know, Cretinous, that you're having wet dreams about the end times being like The Road by Cormac McCartney, but I think it's much more likely we'll muddle through, in our sub par, sloppy, inefficient way, and civilization will continue lurching forward like we always have.
And besides, do you really think the federal, state and local armed forces could ever work together in a united way? I think it's more likely all the various forces would be locked in a giant internal power struggle over who is really in charge.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 8, 2012 12:42:06 GMT -5
You need to decide what point you're trying to make first. My point stands. Police face a scary law enforcement environment these days. I live near the aurora theatre, and as long as that kind of thong is going on, you can't convince me otherwise. That is my understanding as well. Criminals are getting better armed so the cops have to get better hardware as well. As the only saying goes "don't bring a knife to a gun fight."
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 8, 2012 15:19:09 GMT -5
You need to decide what point you're trying to make first. My point stands. Police face a scary law enforcement environment these days. I live near the aurora theatre, and as long as that kind of thong is going on, you can't convince me otherwise. That is my understanding as well. Criminals are getting better armed so the cops have to get better hardware as well. As the only saying goes "don't bring a knife to a gun fight." TD and I were at a defensive handgun class this past weekend and this was largely the issue that was discussed many times. The criminals have much more fire power than the police, which puts the police at a disadvantage in a battle.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 10, 2012 17:27:33 GMT -5
I'm glad someone made that point early on.
Disclaimer for those who don't know: My husband is a police officer, and I am a cops and courts reporter for a newspaper, so I definitely have very strong feelings about this.
The average citizen has no clue what is going on on the streets at night, and sometimes in the day. You can talk about what it was like back in the day, but that was before kids started shooting up schools and the bad guys were able to buy weapons and body armor over the internet.
In the past three years I can think of seven officers who have been shot, four of whom died, from our area. Our friend just got shot (thankfully only in the leg) last month chasing down armed robbers.
I pray my husband never has to fire his gun at anyone, but if it comes down to him or someone else, I hope it's him coming home at the end of it. So, yes, I'd like our police to have whatever is available to protect them while they're on the street protecting us.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 10, 2012 18:10:49 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 10, 2012 18:28:20 GMT -5
To hijack a political quote, "It's the economy stupid." Please note I don't actually think Cretinous is stupid. I can remove the quote if he'd like.
My point is, we've built up a massive defense department. Which has built up a massive industry supplying that massive defense department with stuff. Weapons, drones, surveillance capabilities, etc. Sooner or later those companies are going to saturate even our massive appetite for military hardware, and if they don't find new buyers, it's going to put millions of people out of work. So they start peddling their wares to law enforcement agencies. At first, only federal. The FBI, ATF, etc., start buying up surplus military gear. That works for a few years, and the massive industry supplying that stuff gets even massive-er (what do you know, spell check approved that... weird). Anyway, now they're again on the lookout to keep the boom going. They've exhausted the military, they've exhausted federal law enforcement, they're selling what they can to private citizens, we've been supplying weapons to the world for a while... there's nowhere else to go. In the middle of a not great economy. Start selling to local law enforcement or see the boom stop, and millions of job losses when it does.
In any other industry the public would be outraged, but when it comes to safety we'll stomach a lot. So this is by and large pork spending to appease a massive defense industry, because we've allowed ourselves to become a pretty defense oriented economy. In my opinion.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 18, 2012 20:08:55 GMT -5
Paul Joseph Watson Infowars.com Tuesday, September 18, 2012 Following controversy over its purchase of around 1.2 billion bullets in the last six months alone, the Department of Homeland Security has put out a new solicitation for over 200 million more rounds of ammunition, some of which are designated to be used by snipers. A series of new solicitations posted on the FedBizOpps website show that the DHS is looking to purchase 200 million rounds of .223 rifle ammunition over the next four years, as well as 176,000 rounds of .308 caliber 168 grain hollow point boat tail (HPBT) rounds in addition to 25,000 rounds of blank .308 caliber bullets. As James Smith over at the Prepper Podcast website highlights, “It is the type of ammunition and not necessarily the quantity that is troubling.” Smith points out that the DHS’ acquisition of .308 rounds is of concern because they are set to be used by well-trained snipers. “All of the sniper grade ammunition is being used by trained, or in-the-process-of-being-trained snipers,” writes Smith, noting that the math adds up to 135,384 potential kills for the snipers to make, using the 176,000 rounds of ammunition, basing the figures on the fact that United States Army and Marine Corps snipers in the Vietnam War expended 1.3 rounds of ammunition for each claimed and verified kill. As this police training website documents, .308 caliber 168 grain bullets are the ammunition of choice for experienced law enforcement snipers. The number of bullets purchased by the DHS now adds up to a staggering 1.4 billion over the last six months alone. Although all those bullets won’t be delivered at once, the DHS’ commitment to purchasing such an arsenal of ammo is both worrying and ironic given that Americans are being harassed and treated with suspicion for buying a couple of boxes of ammo at their local gun store. Following a barrage of questions about why the federal agency has purchased so many bullets, the DHS has refused to respond and even gone to the lengths of censoring information relating to solicitations for ammunition. This amounts to about 6000 rounds of ammunition per agent, over a 5 year period, or 1200 rounds a year. If you figure that every time TD and I go out target shooting, we go through 200-300 bullets EACH and we go a couple times each month. I'd kind of like to see the people that are protecting the US a bit more accurate than the 34% accuracy that has been published by some police departments in the US. That takes practice, which needs ammunition. As all ammunition does not fire the same way, you want to practice with what you use.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 19, 2012 13:52:33 GMT -5
That math is faulty as hell. It assumes the agents never fire any of those rounds at the range to practice and qualify which is of course ridiculous. Each sniper in training will fire thousands of rounds just during the course of their training. Once trained, they have to range qualify every 3-12 months depending on the agency they work for. That qualification alone will use dozens of rounds per agent. In between qualifying, they still get practice range time, where they'll probably fire 50 to a couple hundred rounds. Each session. When you include training, practice, and qualification you probably get a kill ratio more like 1 enemy kill per thousand rounds of ammunition. Which still might be vastly underestimating the round count at the range.
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