Re-organizing Catholicism

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

I didn't want to hijack foodiedad's thread.

AND I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE THIS INTO A DISCUSSION OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY. THIS IS A THREAD ABOUT ORGANIZATIONAL DYNAMICS.

I even admit I haven't thought this all the way through. Heck, I suppose I could probably get ex-communicated for even raising the idea. And, I am sure the example I will provide is not a neat and clean and welcomed as it might appear. And, although several popes and theologians and a whole bunch of religious folks will turn over in their graves:

I have been thinking, that given the wide range of adherence/disobedience of some tenets of the Catholic faith, why doesn't the Catholic Church follow the example of the Jewish faith and split off in to layers based upon depth of belief/practice? You know, Jews fall into their faith anywhere from ultra-religious Hasidic Jews all the way down to Reform Jews and cultural Jews. So, Catholics could align themselves all the way from ultra-conservative/adherent to Catholic-lite.

Sure, there are already *some* unofficial, insignificant, differences between the different orders (i.e., Jesuits, Christian Brothers, Stigmatines, Sisters of Notre Dame, Sisters of St. Joseph, School Sisters of Notre Dame, etc.) and there are some exclusive ultra-religious Catholic organizations. But, a lot of emotion is spent haranguing over the divide between strict Catholics and "cafeteria Catholics". IMHO, finding ways to cast a wider net and draw people toward *some* faith rather than the "all or none" official approach, at least "seems" desirable.

Am I missing something (besides that the Catholic Church is ruled by old, white, men in dresses)?

Are we maybe headed that way?

Or, do you think change is not/never going to happen?

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Sept 2, 2012 16:24:28 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

Maybe because those in power believe it to be true and think they would be doing a disservice to somehow okay belief in less then true. Maybe the powers that be want people not to sin, even if the sin happens because of ignorance, so they fight against what they believe to be ignorance.

So, the powers that be are the most conservative, strictest believers a la the Hasidic Jews.

And, as far as the ignorance thing, the Catholic Church has a long history of spreading its beliefs and influence in under and undeveloped countries where "ignorance due to lack of education" is rampant.

There certainly is some argument for saying "this is the dogma, take it or get out".

But, you know, this world is pretty messed up. I believe there is also an argument for a "we prefer you believed/practiced it all, but we'll take you where you are in your beliefs/practices because that is better than nothing" approach.

Am I clear...or clear as mud? I'm finding it hard to explain without getting all theological and stuff.

[Tennesseer]

GRG-what you suggest has already happened. It's called the Protestant Reformation.

[Tennesseer]

Also interesting you brought up this subject. From today's news:

In final interview, liberal Cardinal says Church '200 years out of date'

"The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change," said Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini two weeks before his death

ROME (Reuters) - The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was "200 years out of date" in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.

Martini, once favored by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.

"Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous," Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.


More: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48876172/ns/world_news-europe

[Deleted]

It's something I've considered, too- if they have Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews, why not the same for Roman Catholics? (I use the modifier "Roman" because I'm an Episcopalian. We consider ourselves to be "Catholic" as well, but not aligned with the Pope).

I think the reason is that they have some pretty inflexible rules. Either you're in or you're not. Yeah I know that the average person in the pew is using BC if they're childbearing age and thinks it might be OK to have women as priests, but the hierarchy in Rome would never allow a group with these practices to call themselves Roman Catholics of any stripe.

My choice, after 18 years in a devoutly Roman Catholic family and 20 years outside of organized religion, was to become an Episcopalian.

[Tiny]

What Tennesseer said. If you are unhappy with your local Catholic congregation - odds are you can find what you are looking for in one of the myriad of other protestant churches.

I hear the Lutheran's serve good food at their social functions <-- I'm an athiest. I'm poking some kind hearted fun at a religious group I kind of like. (I have been to several Lutheran functions and the food WAS pretty good.)

[Phoenix84]

There was the protestant reformation in the 1400's. The protestants then split off into different groups, like the baptists, the lutherans, the penticostals the methodists ect.

If you want to find another christian branch, there are plenty to choose from. There are also plenty of non denominational christian churches around too.

[Malarky]

DH is the other sort of Catholic.

Lapsed.

His stepmother still blames me.

[Deleted]

I really don't seem to know that many practicing Catholics anymore. I think the Catholic Church does need to modernize to some extent if it wants to retain and recruit new members.

[TD2K]

I doubt the Catholic leadership is ever going to do this because they believe they are right. Rather, individual churches or groups will simply break off and lead their own paths much like the recent splits in the Presbyterian church. The Catholic Church centered in Rome would likely not accept them as full 'equal' Catholics.

Similarly, I don't know how much 'coordination' of beliefs there is between the various Jewish religious groups (Ultra-orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc).

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"There was the protestant reformation in the 1400's. The protestants then split off into different groups, like the baptists, the lutherans, the penticostals the methodists ect.":::...

Dammit... I'm only on season 1 of "The Tudors". Don't you dare spoil this for me!

So far so good on the thread. I want to be able to leave it here, but we will see how it progresses.

[Phoenix84]

Actually I was wrong, the protistant reformation happened in the 1500's. Martin Luther wrote his nintey-five theses in 1517.

[TD2K]

Sept 2, 2012 22:10:11 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"There was the protestant reformation in the 1400's. The protestants then split off into different groups, like the baptists, the lutherans, the penticostals the methodists ect.":::...

Dammit... I'm only on season 1 of "The Tudors". Don't you dare spoil this for me!

So far so good on the thread. I want to be able to leave it here, but we will see how it progresses.

The Tudors has nothing to do with the Reformation, Henry VIII created the Church of England which was very similar to the Catholic Church except Henry replaced the Pope as the Supreme head of the church.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

<<< Re-organizing Catholicism ... ... ... AND I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE THIS INTO A DISCUSSION OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY. THIS IS A THREAD ABOUT ORGANIZATIONAL DYNAMICS. ... ... ... IMHO, finding ways to cast a wider net and draw people toward *some* faith rather than the "all or none" official approach, at least "seems" desirable. >>>


...wow, GRG... you don't ask for much, do you? ;D

...on the one hand, Tenn is right... this already happened... Protestant Reformation, Vatican I, Vatican II...

...otoh, the Protestant Reformation wasn't organizational in motivation, but doctrinal/theological... while Vaticans I & II were fairly organizationally motivated... yes, imo... but most should agree with this...

...and to discuss church structure in Catholicism, you must consider doctrine and theology... to discuss their PR and recruiting efforts is another matter entirely... again, imo...

...and while I'm not really answering any of your questions, they did remind me of something from seminary... we were discussing the fluidity of faith... how a Protestant experience differs from a Catholic experience... how embracing Christianity differs from other world religions... the works-based religions were excluded from this faith systems discussion... and so viewing faith systems as a fluid became the "object lesson"... gauging a holy scripture's tenets/instructions based on flexibility and form in the following... and how faith pours into a life over millennia... and comparing the faith that pours like water vs. the faith that pours like cement... what form it takes over time... the watery faiths being universal, accessible, personal, lasting... the rigidity of cement faiths, not so much...

...anyway, I was reminded of this since you're wanting to discuss the influence/appeal of Catholicism over time... how would it/should it/could it change to attract followers of new eras and ethos? ...and while Bible teachings have shown much success in being applied/accepted in many cultures and times, Vatican Councils and papal bulls, not so much...



...fwiw, I'll be interested to read the responses to your very interesting thread!

[Deleted]

I really don't see the Catholic church doing much of anything to attract new people. We have some old dying churches here. Other denominations seem to be drawing people in as they have changed a bit with the times, offer more modern style worship and music , have events and VBS and other things to bring people in.

[Deleted]

I really don't see the Catholic church doing much of anything to attract new people. We have some old dying churches here.

The same is happening in my area.. The dying out of many of the Catholic churches.. I have friends who are trying to untie their soul ties from their church because they feel so empty, but still so locked into the systems at the same time..

I am interested in reading what may be written here as a potential pass-along..

[Deleted]

It is kind of sad because it was a very vibrant faith when i was growing up. A lot of my friends were Catholic and had to attend after school cathechism. And, there were confirmations and so forth. They seemed like a pretty tight knit group. I now know more former Catholics than practicing Catholics. I am not Catholic but there are things i really do like about the Catholic church and hope that they could maintain their churches.

[Bluerobin]

GRG, you forgot Senile, old, white men in dresses. They will not concede, because it has always been done this way. Split offs have been the Lutherans and the Anglicans. No one else has the stones to defy the Senile Priests. The church is so out of touch, why would anyone fear excommunication?

[Tennesseer]

Sept 3, 2012 8:41:14 GMT -5 @shooby said:

It is kind of sad because it was a very vibrant faith when i was growing up. A lot of my friends were Catholic and had to attend after school cathechism. And, there were confirmations and so forth. They seemed like a pretty tight knit group. I now know more former Catholics than practicing Catholics. I am not Catholic but there are things i really do like about the Catholic church and hope that they could maintain their churches.

At least east of the Mississippi River, Catholic churches were populated by first, second, and third, fourth, etc. generations of European (legal) immigrants. The birth rate for the later generations is decreasing. (I am sure there are other reasons for lower church attendance for these groups but this reason stands out in my mind.)

What you will find now and in the future is an increase of Latino Catholic church attendees as their birth rates are increasing.

The demographic of those attending Catholic churches are changing.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Okay, without opening a discussion about whether this is true or even possible (sincerely trying not to turn this into a theological discussion), the ONE thing that differentiates the Catholic faith from other Christian denominations is that Catholics uniquely believe in Transfiguration -- the bread and wine transfigure during the Eucharist into the body and blood of Jesus.

So, for Catholics who by definition believe in Transfiguration, simply converting to another Christian faith is not an option.

Therefore, a re-organization would allow Catholics to sort themselves out with respect to the remaining tenets of the faith.

I know, I know, why apply organizational management concepts to something not rational or logical? LOL. Is it too much to want to find ways for people to access faith from where.*they* are and not vice versa?

[zibazinski]

It's hard to shake belief system. I was raised Baptist and then went to Presybyterian and now Methodist. Very comfortable with Methodist because they are more liberal in regards to equality for women. My minister is a woman. Good speaker. Get a lot from her. Trouble is I moved to another area. One filled with churches and I can't find one that I'm comfortable with. So now I don't go which bothers me. Plus, no matter what, those old church teachings stay with me. I feel a lot of built about things. Crazy, I know, but it's there. I don't think a church should teach feeling guilt about things other than true sins like murder. It's still hard for me to look in a mirror for long because of my Grandma saying GOD would strike me dead or blind for being vain Sheesh.

[Tiny]

So, for Catholics who by definition believe in Transfiguration, simply converting to another Christian faith is not an option.

Do you mean Transubstantiation?

I'll be honest and doubt that many of my Catholic friends/relatives even know how Transubstantiation happens (what it means to Catholics) much less that they fervently believe this actually happens. I also doubt they know what the other Protestant denominations believe it DOESN"T work the way the Catholic doctrine sez it does.
Catholics are already picking and choosing what they believe and what they don't - i doubt Transubstantiation is at the top of their list. I suspect that it might be fairly easy to switch Churches belief wise - especially if one finds a church with the same moral beliefs as you have (well there's probably some course work and consueling involved). I think maybe the stigma of changing religions is what keeps people from doing it.

ADDED: Despite a Catholic upbringing, Catholic Grade school with daily religious classes, and then additional thru the Church classes during HS - I didn't learn a whole lot about Catholicism - I learned what I was and was not suppose to do to be a Catholic but not much else. Many of my friends/relatives had the same experience.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

So, for Catholics who by definition believe in Transfiguration Transubstantiation , simply converting to another Christian faith is not an option.


...and the confessional... or the coredemptrix... both of which are incompatible with many Protestant churches... which limits a converting Catholic's options...

...contemporary music and interactive powerpoint displays, notwithstanding...



edited typo

[Bluerobin]

When I used to believe, no Transubstantion took place. My church used bread and wine, and it tasted like bread and wine. I just love the canabalistic tenent of the faith.

[Deleted]

I'm on the West Coast so Catholic congregations still seem pretty vibrant to me. They've just changed a lot - my local churches have services in Vietnamese and Spanish for example. There is a Catholic/Lutheran church. I think there is also a lot more religious competition for people of faith now.

I think Catholics have already split into layers - it's just not formal. You can see it based on participation in organizations, which organizations you join, and which church you attend depending on the tone/content of the homily.

[TD2K]

From what I've read, a lot of US Catholics already pick and chose what they want to follow in their faith. If they want to follow the church's teaching on birth control, fine. If they want to use birth control not sanctioned by the church, fine. It's sort of an informal splitting of the Catholic Church into different 'denominations'.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 3, 2012 11:46:12 GMT -5 TD2K said:

From what I've read, a lot of US Catholics already pick and chose what they want to follow in their faith. If they want to follow the church's teaching on birth control, fine. If they want to use birth control not sanctioned by the church, fine. It's sort of an informal splitting of the Catholic Church into different 'denominations'.

Even the RC sisters and nuns are in a rebellious mood.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2012 10:35:30 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

So, for Catholics who by definition believe in Transfiguration Transubstantiation , simply converting to another Christian faith is not an option.


...and the confessional... or the coredemptrix... both of which are incompatible with many Protestant churches... which limits a converting Catholic's options...

...contemporary music and interactive powerpoint displays, notwithstanding...



edited typo

(a) Protestant churches are always an option, but if you believe in transubstantiation, symbolic communion would certainly be a loss.

(b) Don't forget the earlier division between the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox church. There are divisions beyond the Protestant reformation. LDS too, I suppose.

(c) I don't think Judaism is a fair example of a sub-divided religion. It isn't like there is a central Jewish faith that manages the different movements. It is more analogous to all of the sects of Christianity.

(d) speaking as a frustrated Catholic, I think the real options are basically "vote with your feet" (find a new faith) or "change from within" (keep the faith, fight the corruption). YMMV

[resolution]

Sept 3, 2012 10:35:30 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

So, for Catholics who by definition believe in Transfiguration Transubstantiation , simply converting to another Christian faith is not an option.


...and the confessional... or the coredemptrix... both of which are incompatible with many Protestant churches... which limits a converting Catholic's options...

...contemporary music and interactive powerpoint displays, notwithstanding...



edited typo

I think the confessional and co-redemtrix are already varying by parish. I never even heard the term co-redemtrix and when I looked it up to see what it was, it is not an official church dogma. The confessional is also something that is not really emphasized. My priest recommends that people go once a year if he gets asked about it, but most people in our parish don't go. The transubstantiation would be the limiting factor on converting in our parish, since that is the one that gets preached about a lot and is a commonly held belief.

Our area we also are seeing numbers slowly growing rather than dropping off, but there aren't enough priests. They are even importing them from Africa and India and still have them floating around between 2 or 3 locations each weekend. I think if anything prompts a reform or reorganization it will be the priest shortage. I don't understand why Rome is so set on not letting them get married when they were allowed to for the first 1000 years of church history. I think that would resolve a lot of the problems with recruiting.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"The Tudors has nothing to do with the Reformation, Henry VIII created the Church of England which was very similar to the Catholic Church except Henry replaced the Pope as the Supreme head of the church.":::...

OK, you took it literally... I know that Showtime took creative liberties with history, and am not ACTUALLY depending on a scripted drama for facts. The show has already killed off characters that lived, as well as let characters live who died. I just wanted to lighten the mood.

I believe that this thread does belong in the proper area though, and as such I need to move it. Please note, I am not closing it, I am just placing it where it should have been in the first place.