Student subsidies of classmates' tuition

[Deleted]

I see. I think we need to start by reigning in paper mills, and requiring entrance counseling which would let kids realistically know how much they can expect to make, job trends, etc., as well as actual costs of loans, etc...

[ontrack]

Aug 29, 2012 13:25:07 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

The article would have been more interesting if it had addressed the unpreparedness of out of country students who pay gobs of $$ to get educated in the US. I had to deal with this situation last summer, where I had a student from Saudi who was horribly unprepared for the work she had to do. I know that the university kept her around because she was paying a buttload of tuition to the college. Unfortunately, many times when they are so unprepared, they are likely to cheat so I had to be on the lookout for plagerism as well. That single graduate student took up far more of my time than 3 undergrad students.

We had plagarism issues with international students when I TAed during grad school. Part of the problem is that in some countries, it's perfectly acceptable to cheat. I proctored an exam and caught blatent cheating, and they didn't think "collaborating" was wrong, even though it was made clear to them earlier that it wasn't allowed.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Aww these poor babies. Finding out that school is expensive. My heart breaks for them. Shut up and suck it up, or get the frak out. You're a grown up now, learn to do your research and deal.

[Deleted]

And to be honest, I also don't have much sympathy for people who move to a new area intending to go to school without double checking the in state/out of state requirements

We did check the requirements. We were told that owning a home would be sufficient for the appeal. It was not. We also were not told that because DH had started a CC within 9 months of moving to OR that we would also have to pay out of state tuition two years later when he transferred to a state school. At that point we'd lived in the state for two years while owning a home and we still didn't qualify for in state tuition.

That seems extreme, especially now that the state is trying to get in state tuition for undocumented aliens.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

And to be honest, I also don't have much sympathy for people who move to a new area intending to go to school without double checking the in state/out of state requirements. When we moved to WA, I knew I intended to go back to school, so I did all the residency things right away- switched banks (not a requirement anymore), got a new driver's license, etc. And I also knew that I had to be a resident of the state (which the banking/license thing proved) at least one year before I'd be considered a resident.
I knew this, because just like tuition rates, this is all publically available information, usually right on the school's website.

I did the same thing. I knew I'd be going back to school so set myself up that as soon as my year residency requirement was up, I'd be eligible for in-state tuition.

There are some states that have reciprocity agreements such that residents of adjacent states can go to another state's school for in state tuition rates. For instance, North Dakota State University as reciprocity agreements with MN.

[Deleted]

FYI, there was out of state additional tuition for graduate students at both my undergrad and graduate universities, which are in different states.

[shanendoah]

Anne: I agree that it sucks that you and your DH were given wrong information. But I continue to maintain that every school website I have seen says that in order to obtain resident status, you must live in the state for one year WITHOUT attending school- not just there school, but any school. And that's to prevent any kid who didn't go home over the summer from qualifiying for in state rates. One year, no school. It's pretty standard.

NV and CA have a "Good Neighbor" program (or at least did in the 1990s), which allowed students from NV to attend CA schools at rates that were not as high as most of their out of state costs, and allowed students from CA to attend NV schools at rates that varied based on their county of residence. (Kids from LA did not get as good of a rate at UN,Reno as kids from Sacramento did, but they did get a better rate at UNLV.) It was a complicated ass program, but UNR had a lot of kids coming over from CA, paying slightly more than residents and it worked really well.

Gin: Thanks for letting us know. Again, at the schools I looked at, they just charged so much for grad programs that I guess they figured it didn't matter if you were in state or out of state.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

would let kids realistically know how much they can expect to make, job trends

But that's not a sure thing and the markets are cyclical.

I have a YM approved STEM degree and I am not making near what I could have made if I had graduated sooner because funding tanked.

Also when I was in school my field was booming, there were hundreds of technician jobs available. Now I've barely seen more than three on our web site for starters and not much anywhere else either.

Funding has been slashed, the economy has sunk. What was a great idea in college has not been such a great idea now.

That doesn't mean it won't pick back up someday, I am very aware and always have been that the market I am in is highly cyclical.

But which cycle do I go by at 18 for picking a major. At 18 this was a great choice, at 26 not so much.

That's not to say that I think blessing and six figure loans should be given to an underwater basket weaving type degree, but I don't think trying to force an 18 year old to pick a major based on what the job market is doing is going to help all that much.

What might be great now might not be so great later. Look at the dotcom boom and bust in the 90's.

I would think a better thing would be to say it is a crapshoot no matter what you major in, be prepared for some down times and always be open to retraining/reeducation if you find your market bottoming out.

We have non-STEM majors on here that are doing quite well for themselves, many in fields that aren't even related to their degree.

I think it would be of more service to teach kids that your path isn't set in stone and just because you majored in English you have to find something in the field of English to use it.

You can find a way to use it to gain a leg up elsewhere if you keep an open mind.

We need to teach and encourage critical thinking/open minds so if you find yourself graduating with an unmarketable degree or in a tanked economy you can pull yourself up and make yourself marketable/find a job.

Forcing them to pick majors WE want them to pick based on what we think is a profitable/suitable profession is just more hand holding/coddling.

[thyme4change]

I thought the point of the in state status was not so much that the taxes were paying x% of the tuition that year - but that the family had been paying state taxes for years......and would be after all their kids were out too.

Originally this probably was the concept, but more so than mobility, the conflict I see is that states have slashed their funding for Universities. So, my state schools aren't getting very much of my tax money anyway, and neither are any of the other state schools - so what difference does it make if my kid goes to University of Arizona or University of Washinton?

[Deleted]

the conflict I see is that states have slashed their funding for Universities. So, my state schools aren't getting very much of my tax money anyway, and neither are any of the other state schools - so what difference does it make if my kid goes to University of Arizona or University of Washinton?

Which is why so many public universities are trying to go private. They receive negligible funding from the state but have to follow all of the state's rules.

[Deleted]

Forcing them to pick majors WE want them to pick based on what we think is a profitable/suitable profession is just more hand holding/coddling.


We need to make sure that they understand that certain career choices have a higher degree of uncertainty

It also depends on your geographical area

Certain fields/degrees have a higher likelyhood of employment than others....they may not be "sexy", but they are known to pay the bills

accounting
computer science
engineering
nursing

Getting a degree in anthropology may be your life's passion, but understanding that it may not lead to a great job is reality

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2012 13:25:07 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

The article would have been more interesting if it had addressed the unpreparedness of out of country students who pay gobs of $$ to get educated in the US. I had to deal with this situation last summer, where I had a student from Saudi who was horribly unprepared for the work she had to do. I know that the university kept her around because she was paying a buttload of tuition to the college.

That's sad. I read recently (in the last year or so) about a US university that was pretty much printing diplomas for Chinese students who could barely speak English, but were a rich source of steep foreign-student fees.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I agree gdgyva, I do think they need to understand that some fields are very uncertain/unstable/competitive. But in the end she's still responsible for whatever degree she ends up with.

I can steamroll her into an approved YM degree but that means I am still running her life and by the time she is in college I'd really like to be done with the hand holding.

I'd certainly talk to her about it, but I am not going to stop her. It's her job to figure out what the hell to do with it or not once she gets out.

[973beachbum]

Aug 30, 2012 11:35:59 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I agree gdgyva, I do think they need to understand that some fields are very uncertain/unstable/competitive. But in the end she's still responsible for whatever degree she ends up with.

I can steamroll her into an approved YM degree but that means I am still running her life and by the time she is in college I'd really like to be done with the hand holding.

I'd certainly talk to her about it, but I am not going to stop her. It's her job to figure out what the hell to do with it or not once she gets out.

I think it is a lot harder to steamroll a young college student into the degree we as parents want than people think.

DH says from the college he teaches at pt now and his own college experience that most, if not almost all, of the students in engineering because their parents wanted, read forced, them to study it either dropped out or changed majors by Soph year. The one who stuck it out and graduated with an elec eng degree never used that degree. She is working for the county social services dept because that is what she always wanted to do. If she had had her choice she would have majored in psycology instead and probably been better off in her profession than with a mostly useless EE degree.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

If she had had her choice she would have majored in psycology instead and probably been better off in her profession than with a mostly useless EE degree

So she has an EE degree but does not use it. Does that make her a success or a failure by YM standards?

[thyme4change]

Certain fields/degrees have a higher likelyhood of employment than others....they may not be "sexy", but they are known to pay the bills

accounting
computer science
engineering
nursing

Getting a degree in anthropology may be your life's passion, but understanding that it may not lead to a great job is reality

And imagine what would happen to wages for those careers if we had an entire generation major in nothing but those 4 areas.

Variety is the spice of life. I can't make more money than everyone else if we are all competing for the same job.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2012 12:03:08 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

DH says from the college he teaches at pt now and his own college experience that most, if not almost all, of the students in engineering because their parents wanted, read forced, them to study it either dropped out or changed majors by Soph year.

A friend who worked at a local medical school said the same: there was a high dropout/flunkout rate early on because so many kids who had been pushed into medicine by their ambitious parents didn't really want to be doctors. It took them that long to finally face reality.

[973beachbum]

Aug 30, 2012 12:12:07 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

If she had had her choice she would have majored in psycology instead and probably been better off in her profession than with a mostly useless EE degree

So she has an EE degree but does not use it. Does that make her a success or a failure by YM standards?

Well she is low paid even by social work standards so I'm guessing failure. It has also been so long I doubt she could do much with the degree now even if she wanted.

It just always made me a little sad thinking fo 4 years at a private university to the tune of $100K, all to get an entry level clerks job at social services.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I know I am a faliure even though I have an STEM degree. I don't make near what YM-ers claim I should be making.

[Abby Normal]

Aug 30, 2012 11:21:47 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

the conflict I see is that states have slashed their funding for Universities. So, my state schools aren't getting very much of my tax money anyway, and neither are any of the other state schools - so what difference does it make if my kid goes to University of Arizona or University of Washinton?

Which is why so many public universities are trying to go private. They receive negligible funding from the state but have to follow all of the state's rules.

The amount they receive from the state is not "negligible". Though for some universities it may be a small portion in comparison to the private donations they recieve.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2012 12:18:41 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Certain fields/degrees have a higher likelyhood of employment than others....they may not be "sexy", but they are known to pay the bills

accounting
computer science
engineering
nursing

Getting a degree in anthropology may be your life's passion, but understanding that it may not lead to a great job is reality

And imagine what would happen to wages for those careers if we had an entire generation major in nothing but those 4 areas.

Variety is the spice of life. I can't make more money than everyone else if we are all competing for the same job.

I agree

And we need some people with those skills/education

I was just stating that maybe we should make sure that their passion (be it arts, history, etc) can lead to less certainty in gainful employment...and they need to realize that going in....

There are thousands of young people in Hollywood dreaming of being the next "it" person...making the movie, show, songs

Some will make it...most wont...i am not saying we have to shatter their dreams....only add an iota of reality into the mix

[thyme4change]

Some will make it...most wont...i am not saying we have to shatter their dreams....only add an iota of reality into the mix

I'm not sure that is possible. I think you either dream big, or you steer towards reality. I don't think you can do both. Kasey Kasem was putting in a tall order when he said to keep your feet on the ground but keep reaching for the stars.

[shanendoah]

What I find interesting is all the people with STEM degrees who are certain that you have to do exactly what your degree says, and therefore try to apply that to Liberal Arts majors.
My BA is in history with a minor in writing. I did later go back and get an MBA, but I've never worked in a school or done anything outside of school that had to do with history. My degree, however, is still incredibly useful because I learned how to research. I research all the time. That skill made me successful in IT when I was doing that for 3 years. It enabled me to come to a large company in an admin capacity, work my way up to analyst, and then (with the help of the MBA), become a manager.
Knowing how to do thorough and complete research also helps me tremendously in my home life. When we buy a car or a house, or any other major purchase either DH or I has done major research into what we're getting and we know exactly what we're getting and why we're getting it over something similar. We know what issues to expect, etc.

As for the writing part, while I do write (and have had some things published), we all use writing skills every day. And you can bet my writing skills have helped me move up in my job, too.

I also don't believe that STEM people are limited to what their degree says. I have a good friend with an EE, and she teaches at DigiPen University. I know she teaches programming, but also level design, and about micro-transactions, and the trends in video games.
She also edits text books in her areas of expertise.
If you ask her, she hasn't used her EE degree in years, but it was that background that has enabled her to do what she does now- and she loves it.

[973beachbum]

"I also don't believe that STEM people are limited to what their degree says. I have a good friend with an EE, and she teaches at DigiPen University. I know she teaches programming, but also level design, and about micro-transactions, and the trends in video games.
She also edits text books in her areas of expertise.
If you ask her, she hasn't used her EE degree in years, but it was that background that has enabled her to do what she does now- and she loves it."

But Shane programming is under the EE degree umbrella. Her undergad degree is also necessary to getting her masters and PHD to teach college.

Nothing about answering the phones at the county social services dept requires an engineering degree of any kind.

[thyme4change]

Statistically, some degree programs have higher earnings than others. Your individual experience will vary.

Making sure that people understand if they graduate with a history degree there won't be a clear career path. Anyone with a history degree may be competing with people who might have a more "relevant" degree if you try and go outside the "history" arena. This is worse during economic downturns and at the beginning of your career.

[shanendoah]

Beachbum: Programming was barely a spec under an EE degree when she got her degree- certainly not on the level that she teaches it. And she doesn't have a masters or a PhD. DigiPen doesn't have accredidation as a standard 4 year college, so she doesn't need one. What they have is a reputation in their industry. It does mean that students who go there have to know that if they go outside of their industry, their degree won't be recognized as a degree.

Thyme: Very few people with degrees in history do anything related to history. Some do teach middle/high school/college history or social studies. Some teach elementary school where they teach everything. But most people with history degrees end up in law enforcement or adminstrative jobs. The FBI/CIA etc want history majors for their desk jockeys- again, because of the ability to research.

I think it's important to talk to any student about what jobs their degree might qualify them for, when they decide on a major. I think colleges want the high schools to do career counseling, which is silly, considering how many kids change their majors while in college, and how few kids are really ready for a career right out of high school- at least now.
I'm not saying four year universities should have job placement offices, but I do think they should make career counseling available to students, no matter where in the process they are.

[thyme4change]

Very few people with degrees in history do anything related to history.

I understand that. But do they know that going in?

I remember having a friend who graduated with an English degree. After graduation, she said to me "Well, I guess I will take a few months or so to really research what I can do with this degree. I really don't know what options are open to me." I thought "Really?" I don't care what degree people get - but I think you should have at least an idea of a few options BEFORE you graduate.

BTW - she became at waitress at an upscale dining facility.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2012 13:41:44 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

If you ask her, she hasn't used her EE degree in years, but it was that background that has enabled her to do what she does now- and she loves it.

One EE I know got out of college, decided she didn't want to have a career plugging circuit boards together, and got an actuarial job. Now she's a catastrophe modeler (works on programs to evaluate the potential impact of hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. for insurance companies and large corporate clients). They're the rock stars of the insurance industry right now. I know quite a few actuaries who started out with engineering degrees.

[shanendoah]

Thyme: I started as a secondary ed/math major and ended up with my history degree. I did think I was going to do something history related, but that's because my plan was to get my masters in Museum Studies (one of the reasons we moved to Seattle is that UW offers that program- less than 20 schools in the entire US do). However, I also knew there were a ton of jobs out there that just required a degree, didn't care what it was in.
But most of the people I was in classes with were either also education majors with a focus in history, or knew they weren't going to be professional historians. I know a number who went to grad school for library science degrees, law degrees, etc, and that was their plan from the beginning.

[zibazinski]

I don't have any issue with non-stem degrees, I have one myself. But I didn't go into a lot of debt to get one. I can't imagine 100k in loans for a job that barely pays anything. My girlfriends daughter wanted to be a school teacher, she lived at home and her college was free thanks to Bright Futures. She got a job paying the same amount of money as those who ran up thousands of dollars in debt. You want to pay the rest of your life for your degree, so be it, but then don't complain when you can't have all kinds of toys because your loan is these size of a mortgage as is the payment.