On Deuteronomy 22

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 16:49:42 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Jul 25, 2012 16:44:40 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

All people are treated the same by God. This has been shown over, and over, again.

Umm, except the lawless ones -

Jul 25, 2012 16:40:52 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

God will provide, but he will not provide for the lawless ones. This has been shown over and over again in the scriptures.

That might be one of the places where the accusations of contradiction come in.

How so? Even God allows the rain to fall on the just and unjust, according to scripture. God does not intervene with mankinds actions. He allows man to form his own judgment and live life as he chooses to do. It is plainly stated in the bible that if mankind loves life then he will choose him (God). To do otherwise is choosing damnation upon onesself.

[happyhippy]

Sure. God will provide, but he will not provide for the lawless ones. This has been shown over and over again in the scriptures.

Remember the rich man that came to Jesus and asked what must he do to inherit the kingdom? He stated that he had always kept the laws given to man by God, his only sin was that he was rich and greedy. This was shown when Jesus told him to sell his riches, give to the poor, and follow him. What did the rich man do? He sadly walked away. Even though this was a teaching lesson specifically pointed towards the direction regarding the greediness of the rich, this is also a teaching lesson showing that ALL things that God considers the right way to live is just that. No way around his way. It's not 'do as you will as long as no one gets hurt.' NO where does the bible condone this behavior, or even suggest such a thing!

I understand your argument,and I am only saying by opinion;

There was always a remedy to some being rich and some poor. We made the laws and systems ourselves. We have put our trust in God to do everything and guide us on the right path. We are reliant on this,because it is supposed to have been said so.

Then again we are confused and then the saying " God helps those that help themselves.

The potentiality UNRESTRICTED, I believe is the true message of Jesus and the like. That is we all have the power to do as he was able to do and make what it is we want right,with out leaving it to someone else. This has been our downfall.

It does seem that a great ancient conspiracy has been carried through for eons passed. This is how the term FEAR is used.
We are at the mercy of the fearful. As so ingrained in all men.

The criminals and the other sorts are ,as one philosopher once said,
"These are the ones who did not make it" regarding equality or access to the same resources in life.

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 16:52:54 GMT -5 trevorw2539 said:

Cranberry.

Would you not expect a divinely inspired book to be correct in all respects? Suppose you were told that some events are simply not possible as recorded in the Bible. And I'm not talking about miracles. For all you might know about what is in the Bible, like your quote says, unless you know the background to which it was written, and the civilisations that preceeded, and were contemporary, with it you will never really understand it.
By all means base your beliefs on Christs teaching even as I do, but having studied the OT for 'a long time' I realised that sometimes things are not as they seem regarding its writings. Background information can often throw more light on events, or reasons for events. Or tell us why some things are impossible as reported.
Sometimes I think Christians are more concerned with the belief that the Bible is divinely inspired, and argue vociferously the point, rather than emphasising the spiritual content. Rather like Islam.

No, sorry, I don't agree. Even the bible, itself, says:


2 Timothy 3:16–17

16. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17. so that the man of God may be adequate, bequipped for every good work.


Anything is possible with God. No matter what science may say. After all, if God can make the universe, create life, give the miracle of birth, raise the dead to life again...Why would anything else be a problem for him?

[Opti]

Jul 25, 2012 16:54:33 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Jul 25, 2012 16:49:42 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Umm, except the lawless ones -


That might be one of the places where the accusations of contradiction come in.

How so? Even God allows the rain to fall on the just and unjust, according to scripture. God does not intervene with mankinds actions. He allows man to form his own judgment and live life as he chooses to do. It is plainly stated in the bible that if mankind loves life then he will choose him (God). To do otherwise is choosing damnation upon onesself.

How do you explain a man like the Dalai Lama then? He isn't Christian but can remember 13 distinct lives on earth. How does that fit with the bible as you understand it?

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:06:04 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jul 25, 2012 16:54:33 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

How so? Even God allows the rain to fall on the just and unjust, according to scripture. God does not intervene with mankinds actions. He allows man to form his own judgment and live life as he chooses to do. It is plainly stated in the bible that if mankind loves life then he will choose him (God). To do otherwise is choosing damnation upon ones-self.

How do you explain a man like the Dalai Lama then? He isn't Christian but can remember 13 distinct lives on earth. How does that fit with the bible as you understand it?

I think he's delusional. The bible says that he (God) has a set day for the resurrection of the dead. In this day, we (anyone that gets the joy of being resurrected) will be of the same mind and remember their loved ones! No where does the bible speak of 'many' afterlife's. I don't believe in reincarnation. It is not biblical.

www.gotquestions.org/family-heaven.html

What does the Bible say about whether we will be able to recognize people in the afterlife? King Saul recognized Samuel when the witch of Endor summoned Samuel from the realm of the dead (1 Samuel 28:8-17). When David’s infant son died, David declared, “I will go to him, but he will not return to me” (2 Samuel 12:23). David assumed that he would be able to recognize his son in heaven, despite the fact that he died as a baby. In Luke 16:19-31, Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man were all recognizable after death. At the transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were recognizable (Matthew 17:3-4). In these examples, the Bible does seem to indicate that we will be recognizable after death.

[Deleted]

Then again we are confused and then the saying " God helps those that help themselves.

Um, this is NOT a Bible verse. It is a nice saying and there are Scriptures in the Bible along those lines but I think this originated from the Poseidon Adventure where Charlton Heston who was playing a Preacher said that Shelly Winters. ;D

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:18:14 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Then again we are confused and then the saying " God helps those that help themselves.

Um, this is NOT a Bible verse. It is a nice saying and there are Scriptures in the Bible along those lines but I think this originated from the Poseidon Adventure where Charlton Heston who was playing a Preacher said that Shelly Winters. ;D

LOL! You got it!

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2012 16:54:33 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

How so?

Well, you made two statements.

In one: 'All people are treated the same by God'.

In the other: 'God will provide, but He will not provide for the lawless ones'.

This suggests, to me, that He doesn't treat the lawless ones the same as the lawful ones… ergo… all people are NOT treated the same by God… ergo… there is a contradiction afoot, no?

[happyhippy]

Yes it is confusing to many !!!

Can I then use "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me,"?

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:20:46 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Jul 25, 2012 16:54:33 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

How so?

Well, you made two statements.

In one: 'All people are treated the same by God'.

In the other: 'God will provide, but He will not provide for the lawless ones'.

This suggests, to me, that He doesn't treat the lawless ones the same as the lawful ones… ergo… all people are NOT treated the same by God… ergo… there is a contradiction afoot, no?

You are right. I retract that statement. All people have the chance to be treated the same. Equally. I was wrong in my statement. Thanks for pointing that out!

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Jul 25, 2012 17:18:14 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Then again we are confused and then the saying " God helps those that help themselves.

Um, this is NOT a Bible verse. It is a nice saying and there are Scriptures in the Bible along those lines but I think this originated from the Poseidon Adventure where Charlton Heston who was playing a Preacher said that Shelly Winters. ;D

Seriously??

Here - maybe this will help:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_those_who_help_themselves

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:23:11 GMT -5 happyhippy said:

Yes it is confusing to many !!!

Can I then use "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me,"?

Yes, you may. Will it be possible? I don't know. ;D

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:25:26 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:18:14 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Then again we are confused and then the saying " God helps those that help themselves.

Um, this is NOT a Bible verse. It is a nice saying and there are Scriptures in the Bible along those lines but I think this originated from the Poseidon Adventure where Charlton Heston who was playing a Preacher said that Shelly Winters. ;D

Seriously??

Here - maybe this will help:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_those_who_help_themselves

She was making a funny. The point still stands. It's not biblical..LOL..

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2012 17:23:36 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

You are right. I retract that statement. All people have the chance to be treated the same. Equally. I was wrong in my statement. Thanks for pointing that out!

Ok, Cranberrry, no worries - doesn't matter who's wrong or right - the thing that interested me was that you seemed to suggest that both of them were enshrined in scripture.

This was something I had considered myself previously -on the one hand we have what appears to be God's infinite love, on the other hand we seem to have 'damnation' for those who don't choose the right path.

These two things aren't immediately coherent to the casual observer.

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:33:21 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:23:36 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

You are right. I retract that statement. All people have the chance to be treated the same. Equally. I was wrong in my statement. Thanks for pointing that out!

Ok, Cranberrry, no worries - doesn't matter who's wrong or right - the thing that interested me was that you seemed to suggest that both of them were enshrined in scripture.

This was something I had considered myself previously -on the one hand we have what appears to be God's infinite love, on the other hand we seem to have 'damnation' for those who don't choose the right path.

These two things aren't immediately coherent to the casual observer.

I understand that. That's why it's so important to study the bible. One cannot just read it (bible) like they do any other book. It is too complicated and takes lots of study to really understand what is being said. Otherwise, it does seem to contradict itself.

[cranberry49]

Even the bible said to meditate on things. Philippians 4: 8-9 says: ' Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.'

Of course, as we all know, to meditate means deep thinking. Not just reading the words and taking it at face value.

[trevorw2539]

Jul 25, 2012 17:15:48 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:06:04 GMT -5 Opti said:

How do you explain a man like the Dalai Lama then? He isn't Christian but can remember 13 distinct lives on earth. How does that fit with the bible as you understand it?

I think he's delusional. The bible says that he (God) has a set day for the resurrection of the dead. In this day, we (anyone that gets the joy of being resurrected) will be of the same mind and remember their loved ones! No where does the bible speak of 'many' afterlife's. I don't believe in reincarnation. It is not biblical.

www.gotquestions.org/family-heaven.html


What does the Bible say about whether we will be able to recognize people in the afterlife? King Saul recognized Samuel when the witch of Endor summoned Samuel from the realm of the dead (1 Samuel 28:8-17). When David’s infant son died, David declared, “I will go to him, but he will not return to me” (2 Samuel 12:23). David assumed that he would be able to recognize his son in heaven, despite the fact that he died as a baby. In Luke 16:19-31, Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man were all recognizable after death. At the transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were recognizable (Matthew 17:3-4). In these examples, the Bible does seem to indicate that we will be recognizable after death.

Please read the passages from the Bible you quote, and think carefully about what you have said.

[happyhippy]

Yes, you may. Will it be possible? I don't know

Yes we can do all things,- when we know our limitations.

At the moment we have limited ourselves a little too much,because we were merely told so,by many people ,by tradition passed down.Be it religious or otherwise.
The cheek!!
;D

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2012 17:39:16 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

I understand that. That's why it's so important to study the bible. One cannot just read it (bible) like they do any other book. It is too complicated and takes lots of study to really understand what is being said. Otherwise, it does seem to contradict itself.

Ok. As somebody who has presumably done that, do you not have an explanation for me?

[happyhippy]

Message deleted by happyhippy.

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:43:58 GMT -5 trevorw2539 said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:15:48 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

I think he's delusional. The bible says that he (God) has a set day for the resurrection of the dead. In this day, we (anyone that gets the joy of being resurrected) will be of the same mind and remember their loved ones! No where does the bible speak of 'many' afterlife's. I don't believe in reincarnation. It is not biblical.

www.gotquestions.org/family-heaven.html


What does the Bible say about whether we will be able to recognize people in the afterlife? King Saul recognized Samuel when the witch of Endor summoned Samuel from the realm of the dead (1 Samuel 28:8-17). When David’s infant son died, David declared, “I will go to him, but he will not return to me” (2 Samuel 12:23). David assumed that he would be able to recognize his son in heaven, despite the fact that he died as a baby. In Luke 16:19-31, Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man were all recognizable after death. At the transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were recognizable (Matthew 17:3-4). In these examples, the Bible does seem to indicate that we will be recognizable after death.

Please read the passages from the Bible you quote, and think carefully about what you have said.

I have read them. But, this is in no way stating that either one of these people have had several lives. No where does it insinuate that each person has ever been any other person than the one mentioned. Am I understanding what you are implying correctly? If not, please explain.

[Deleted]

Hi happyhippy, no - I was on MSN under the same moniker.



Edit: I see you've deleted your question now.

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:47:38 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:39:16 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

I understand that. That's why it's so important to study the bible. One cannot just read it (bible) like they do any other book. It is too complicated and takes lots of study to really understand what is being said. Otherwise, it does seem to contradict itself.

Ok. As somebody who has presumably done that, do you not have an explanation for me?

I'm sorry. Did I miss something?

[trevorw2539]

Jul 25, 2012 17:00:12 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Jul 25, 2012 16:52:54 GMT -5 trevorw2539 said:

Cranberry.

Would you not expect a divinely inspired book to be correct in all respects? Suppose you were told that some events are simply not possible as recorded in the Bible. And I'm not talking about miracles. For all you might know about what is in the Bible, like your quote says, unless you know the background to which it was written, and the civilisations that preceeded, and were contemporary, with it you will never really understand it.
By all means base your beliefs on Christs teaching even as I do, but having studied the OT for 'a long time' I realised that sometimes things are not as they seem regarding its writings. Background information can often throw more light on events, or reasons for events. Or tell us why some things are impossible as reported.
Sometimes I think Christians are more concerned with the belief that the Bible is divinely inspired, and argue vociferously the point, rather than emphasising the spiritual content. Rather like Islam.

No, sorry, I don't agree. Even the bible, itself, says:


2 Timothy 3:16–17

16. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17. so that the man of God may be adequate, bequipped for every good work.


Anything is possible with God. No matter what science may say. After all, if God can make the universe, create life, give the miracle of birth, raise the dead to life again...Why would anything else be a problem for him?

What Scripture? When 'Paul' wrote to Timothy there were no Gospels written. He was talking about the OT scriptures and the oral teachings of the disciples and apostles.

I won't argue with you about impossible events. You obviously accept science if it conforms to your beliefs. Yet you accept the science that has brought man to where he is today.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2012 18:01:05 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:47:38 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Ok. As somebody who has presumably done that, do you not have an explanation for me?

I'm sorry. Did I miss something?

Well, for some reason I was hoping for a little more than evasion. My mistake. No worries.

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 17:33:21 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:23:36 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

You are right. I retract that statement. All people have the chance to be treated the same. Equally. I was wrong in my statement. Thanks for pointing that out!

Ok, Cranberrry, no worries - doesn't matter who's wrong or right - the thing that interested me was that you seemed to suggest that both of them were enshrined in scripture.

This was something I had considered myself previously -on the one hand we have what appears to be God's infinite love, on the other hand we seem to have 'damnation' for those who don't choose the right path.

These two things aren't immediately coherent to the casual observer.

Are you talking about this? I don't understand what you are asking! Maybe I'm having a dumb(er) moment?!

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 18:02:44 GMT -5 trevorw2539 said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:00:12 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

No, sorry, I don't agree. Even the bible, itself, says:


2 Timothy 3:16–17

16. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17. so that the man of God may be adequate, bequipped for every good work.


Anything is possible with God. No matter what science may say. After all, if God can make the universe, create life, give the miracle of birth, raise the dead to life again...Why would anything else be a problem for him?

What Scripture? When 'Paul' wrote to Timothy there were no Gospels written. He was talking about the OT scriptures and the oral teachings of the disciples and apostles.

I won't argue with you about impossible events. You obviously accept science if it conforms to your beliefs. Yet you accept the science that has brought man to where he is today.

The OT is still scripture, is it not? So, if that is to be usefull then it stands to reason that the NT would be too, would it not? So, the statement still stands true. All scripture is usefull for learning.

[cranberry49]

Jul 25, 2012 18:02:44 GMT -5 trevorw2539 said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:00:12 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

No, sorry, I don't agree. Even the bible, itself, says:


2 Timothy 3:16–17

16. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17. so that the man of God may be adequate, bequipped for every good work.


Anything is possible with God. No matter what science may say. After all, if God can make the universe, create life, give the miracle of birth, raise the dead to life again...Why would anything else be a problem for him?

What Scripture? When 'Paul' wrote to Timothy there were no Gospels written. He was talking about the OT scriptures and the oral teachings of the disciples and apostles.

I won't argue with you about impossible events. You obviously accept science if it conforms to your beliefs. Yet you accept the science that has brought man to where he is today.

I didn't think any of us were 'arguing.' Yes, science absolutely has a place in this world. However, to try and explain the miracles of the bible ...it does not.

[happyhippy]

Hi happyhippy, no - I was on MSN under the same moniker.

Ahh yes ,I realize now,the one and same I.S.A., (took me a while to get it) I used to read those very intriguing posts there.
Cheers!

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2012 18:09:06 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Jul 25, 2012 17:33:21 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Ok, Cranberrry, no worries - doesn't matter who's wrong or right - the thing that interested me was that you seemed to suggest that both of them were enshrined in scripture.

This was something I had considered myself previously -on the one hand we have what appears to be God's infinite love, on the other hand we seem to have 'damnation' for those who don't choose the right path.

These two things aren't immediately coherent to the casual observer.

Are you talking about this? I don't understand what you are asking! Maybe I'm having a dumb(er) moment?!

Oh, my apologies

I was wondering, initially, how one reconciles the apparently contradictory notions.

You told me, I think, that it appears to be contradictory only to those who haven't studied/contemplated the Bible to a sufficient degree.

I said presumably you have studied the Bible to a sufficient degree (in order to know that) and so I was hoping for an explanation.