Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:18:32 GMT -5
Why not? The restaurant he works for is clearly successful even though their customers are paying a total bill high enough to give him $70k. Part of the reason they're that successful is because of what he adds as a server. Whether I go out to dinner and pay $100 for dinner and $20 for tip, or $120 for the bill with no tipping, I have the exact same outcome. Eating there, ordering whatever we ordered, is going to cost me $120.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:18:57 GMT -5
We go pretty often. Often enough to have realized that the quality of service has nothing to do with the price of the food. Agree to disagree then? In my experience one has a lot to do with the other. Restaurants with outstanding food don't hire idiots to be servers. They hire people who know what they're doing. Lower quality food, it doesn't matter nearly so much.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:23:08 GMT -5
Completely disagree. We used to have this one restaurant in Colorado Springs that we liked for their amazing food. Their wait stuff friggin sucked though. We knew going in that we'd have to wait forever for our drinks, whether they were busy or not, they'd take the food order pretty quick, and might even deliver it to the table within five minutes of it being done, and then we'd have to wait forever for our bill. The ambiance was so-so. The food was totally worth it though.
Granted this wasn't a super upscale place. It wasn't Denny's either, but I'm sure it doesn't count as a real restaurant because the wine menu was pretty short.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:24:45 GMT -5
Completely disagree. We used to have this one restaurant in Colorado Springs that we liked for their amazing food. Their wait stuff friggin sucked though. We knew going in that we'd have to wait forever for our drinks, whether they were busy or not, they'd take the food order pretty quick, and might even deliver it to the table within five minutes of it being done, and then we'd have to wait forever for our bill. The ambiance was so-so. The food was totally worth it though.
So how did you tip these servers when you went?
Good food wouldn't be worth that kind of service (unless it was pretty cheap, I guess). Not to us at least, and certainly not to the point where we'd pay a premium for it and then have to tip 20% on top of that premium. Plenty of restaurants have great food AND great service.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 16:25:30 GMT -5
Restaurants with outstanding food don't hire idiots to be servers. They hire people who know what they're doing
Or they hire people who are very good at telling people exactly what they want to hear. Which does require intelligence but it doesn't require that you know all that much.
We'll have to agree to disagree because while I think service is important I do not think that it warrants a $70k inflated salary no matter if you work for Wolfgang Puck or Ihop.
It all involves the exact same duties no matter where you work.
You might have an more extensive/elaborate menu at Puck's place but if you have half a brain it's not that hard to memorize the menu and spit out recommendations.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:25:41 GMT -5
10%
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 20, 2012 16:28:02 GMT -5
We go pretty often. Often enough to have realized that the quality of service has nothing to do with the price of the food. Agree to disagree then? In my experience one has a lot to do with the other. Restaurants with outstanding food don't hire idiots to be servers. They hire people who know what they're doing. Lower quality food, it doesn't matter nearly so much. Good workers are good workers regardless of where they work. And I am not comparing the girl that work's the wendy's drive through window with Le Cirque. I am comparing the $100-$150 a meal with the restaurant down the street that charges about $40 a meal. While the room make look much nicer and maybe the food is a littel better the wait staff is really about the same. Is any of it three times better, no. I do understand that there is a niceness to going to a fancy restaurant that can create it's own worth. I just don't think it has anything to do with a waiter being worth 7.50 bucks an hour or $70K a year. The most stable wait staff around is actually at the diner. Most of them have been there over twenty years.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:28:05 GMT -5
True, and they're already charging you a 20%+ premium for the privilege of eating there. Then you're adding on another 20% premium by tipping the wait staff, who out of everyone in the restaurant, probably have the least to do with your actual dining experience. Except the hostess. She's basically there to look pretty and keep an even number of tables in each persons section.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:28:09 GMT -5
We'll have to agree to disagree because while I think service is important I do not think that it warrants a $70k inflated salary no matter if you work for Wolfgang Puck or Ihop.
Okay. Personally, I think if you're knowledgeable enough about food and wine to get hired at one of these places, you deserve that salary. Like anything else, knowledge about food and wine takes time to learn, and people pay for that expertise. "Faking it" won't get you that kind of money.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 20, 2012 16:28:13 GMT -5
We go pretty often. Often enough to have realized that the quality of service has nothing to do with the price of the food. Agree to disagree then? In my experience one has a lot to do with the other. Restaurants with outstanding food don't hire idiots to be servers. They hire people who know what they're doing. Lower quality food, it doesn't matter nearly so much. I think that's the issue, you care about that stuff. I don't care if the server knows a thing about the menu, I won't be asking him questions about it. If what I got was wrong, you'll be notified. I do care about speed, with getting my order down, bringing the food out, and getting the bill. I don't think that's such an amazing and rare thing that I need someone "skilled" for it though. I don't need you to have any knowledge at all, regardless of the type of place I'm at, I just need you to be able to take my order and bring me food, then bring me a check. Anything else I've got under control. Though I think it's interesting that what so many people claim to not like, the hovering, etc, is a direct result of our tipping culture. Act super interested and always be there to get big tips. In fact it's why I said Denny's is worse than McD's. No one at McD's hovers over me staring at me as I eat. I agree it's nice to NOT have that at nicer places, but I don't want it anywhere, which is probably why I only care about a few key things in service in general.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2012 16:30:07 GMT -5
Yeah but they're not going to pay an "upscale" server minimum wage, so it's all a moot point. Just like I might pay a gardener minimum wage but if I hire an upscale service I'm going to end up ponying up more cash for them. They won't pay 'em minimum wage, but they won't pay them what they're making now either. In all likelihood he'd be making much more than $25k but much less than $70k. Let's say $40k. Would you stay in YOUR industry if you had to take an arbitrary $30k paycut, or would you start looking for something else? He likely doesn't have many other options outside of food service that pay in excess of $40K, so odds are he would stay - or switch to another restaurant that pays more. But, as Dark pointed out that restaurant would likely pay around $70K to keep him as he is clearly worth the money. Underpaying the servers in a high quality place like that will eventually lead to it no longer being consider such a high quality restaurant.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:31:58 GMT -5
I think that's the issue, you care about that stuff. I don't care if the server knows a thing about the menu, I won't be asking him questions about it. If what I got was wrong, you'll be notified. I do care about speed, with getting my order down, bringing the food out, and getting the bill.I think I already said that if you don't care about your serving experience, then you see this differently than I do I care about it because it's part of the experience. If I didn't care about that experience, I'd never go out to eat. Point being that in my experience, I can't count on ANY of that stuff in a lower-end establishment. Odds are they're going to get something wrong. Do I care if I'm not paying more than $20 for my meal? Not really. I care a lot if I'm paying more like $75-100 for my meal though.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 20, 2012 16:32:22 GMT -5
I think if you're knowledgeable enough about food and wine to get hired at one of these places, you deserve that salary.
Then let their employers pay it like any other industry. If those places really think their servers are worth that, they will pay it.
If they don't well then maybe they aren't worth it.
I know of no other industry where the customers are the ones that get to determine your salary.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:33:17 GMT -5
Why not? Let's say you ask your sever to recommend a dish, you'll never know if another dish on the menu would have been better. Same thing with recommending a wine. You won't know if there was a better option. If you knew enough to know that there was a better pairing available you wouldn't have asked the server in the first place. If you did know, and were asking just to test them, they can always say that tastes differ and they personally prefer whatever the hell they recommended to you. It's a taste thing, there are no right answers.
Most restaurant jobs include a meal break during your shift, so over time they try everything on the menu. You start out with whatever training and menu tips you get when hired, and over time you become familiar with the menu because you eat it every day. It's not rocket science.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 20, 2012 16:33:42 GMT -5
I think if you're knowledgeable enough about food and wine to get hired at one of these places, you deserve that salary. Then let their employers pay it like any other industry. If those places really think their servers are worth that, they will pay it.If they don't well then maybe they aren't worth it. I know of no other industry where the customers are the ones that get to determine your salary. DING, DING, DING!!!
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2012 16:34:49 GMT -5
Though I think it's interesting that what so many people claim to not like, the hovering, etc, is a direct result of our tipping culture. Act super interested and always be there to get big tips. In fact it's why I said Denny's is worse than McD's. No one at McD's hovers over me staring at me as I eat. Interesting, I don't think I've ever been hovered over at Denny's either. Usually the bill comes with the food & your lucky if you ever see them again. At least at Mcdonalds I can refill my own drink instead of wondering where the hell my waitress went.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:35:14 GMT -5
But, as Dark pointed out that restaurant would likely pay around $70K to keep him as he is clearly worth the money. Underpaying the servers in a high quality place like that will eventually lead to it no longer being consider such a high quality restaurant. DINGDINGDING That's exactly what I've been getting at this whole time! They're NOT going to keep paying $70k if they have to pay it themselves (even if they can pass some of it to consumers), which means they'll be stuck with the $40k waiters, which means quality of service will go down. Which eventually means the restaurant won't be as good, EVEN THOUGH you are now paying more money for the food. If you don't care about service, this might sound fine to you. But it would effectively stop me from eating out at any but the lowest-priced places. I would no longer be able to afford the only ones that made the experience worthwhile.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:36:57 GMT -5
Not if you order coffee. I don't think I've ever been in a diner of any sort where I ordered coffee and they even let me finish a cup before offering me a refill. It must be like the one thing they have to learn to do in order to keep their tips high because they're all really good at it. Even when they're covering 8 or more tables at once.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:38:07 GMT -5
Why not? Let's say you ask your sever to recommend a dish, you'll never know if another dish on the menu would have been better. Same thing with recommending a wine. You won't know if there was a better option. If you knew enough to know that there was a better pairing available you wouldn't have asked the server in the first place. If you did know, and were asking just to test them, they can always say that tastes differ and they personally prefer whatever the hell they recommended to you. It's a taste thing, there are no right answers.
YOU may not know as a consumer, but the people who hire these waiters definitely know, and if you can't answer "which wine would you serve with this Chilean sea bass from these six options?" correctly, you're not getting the job.
(And yes - at a higher end establishment you ARE asked such questions in an interview.)
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:39:06 GMT -5
No you aren't. Right now you're paying enough for the food to pay all the overhead, give the owner whatever percentage he wants in profit, and pay the waiter $70k. Having the owner pay the waiter the $70k directly doesn't change your total bill. You still need to pay enough to cover all the overhead, give the owner his profit percentage, and pay the waiter $70k. Instead of a $300 bill and $60 tip, you get a $360 bill. Exact same price either way.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 20, 2012 16:39:44 GMT -5
Technically if you're a contractor they do. You may set your price (depending on how your industry works), but your customer/client tells you if they're willing to pay that price.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:41:12 GMT -5
True, but I thought we agreed pages ago that getting rid of tipping in favor of a flat salary wouldn't affect high end establishments much anyway. They'll simply pay more to get the quality of talent that they need to keep the place high end.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:41:23 GMT -5
Instead of a $300 bill and $60 tip, you get a $360 bill. Exact same price either way.
Except that some of us like the freedom to be able to pay less for a sub-par experience. If the tip is forced on you, that agency gets taken away.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2012 16:43:08 GMT -5
But, as Dark pointed out that restaurant would likely pay around $70K to keep him as he is clearly worth the money. Underpaying the servers in a high quality place like that will eventually lead to it no longer being consider such a high quality restaurant. DINGDINGDING That's exactly what I've been getting at this whole time! They're NOT going to keep paying $70k if they have to pay it themselves (even if they can pass some of it to consumers), which means they'll be stuck with the $40k waiters, which means quality of service will go down. Actually they will keep paying $70K for this very reason, if they are smart. If the service begins to suck they will lose customers. Sure some people like hoops don't give a crap about anything beyond food to the table in a timely manner, but a lot of people do. There is a lot you are expected to know at a fine dining place. My brother worked at one & when he first started the customers could tell he lacked experience & customers told him because they expected better service at such a restaurant. Whether the high money comes from the customer or the restaurant, high end restaurants will expect high quality servers & will pay to get them or the restaurant will suffer.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 20, 2012 16:43:35 GMT -5
No you aren't. Right now you're paying enough for the food to pay all the overhead, give the owner whatever percentage he wants in profit, and pay the waiter $70k. Having the owner pay the waiter the $70k directly doesn't change your total bill. You still need to pay enough to cover all the overhead, give the owner his profit percentage, and pay the waiter $70k. Instead of a $300 bill and $60 tip, you get a $360 bill. Exact same price either way. Wouldn't the prices have to go up more than the "standard" +20% tip or whatever it is to compensate for those that don't leave "standar" (or any) tips? Or at least a possibility, you'd have to do the math.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:43:39 GMT -5
True, but I thought we agreed pages ago that getting rid of tipping in favor of a flat salary wouldn't affect high end establishments much anyway. They'll simply pay more to get the quality of talent that they need to keep the place high end.
Again, I think we're mixing up conversations. Some people are arguing that waitstaff should never be paid high salaries, and some people are arguing that we should get rid of tipping. My thoughts on one don't have much to do with the other.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2012 16:43:45 GMT -5
Not if you order coffee. I don't think I've ever been in a diner of any sort where I ordered coffee and they even let me finish a cup before offering me a refill. It must be like the one thing they have to learn to do in order to keep their tips high because they're all really good at it. Even when they're covering 8 or more tables at once. Damn, that must be my problem. I'm not a coffee drinker.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 20, 2012 16:44:13 GMT -5
You just spent the last two pages arguing that higher end places don't hire low skill waiters, and they can't even get through the interview. So what sub-par experience are you worried about? The only servers working would be the highly skilled ones that are worth $70k because they're the only ones that can get through the interview, right?
At low end places the service already sucks anyway, so it really wouldn't matter. Or that was your position just ten minutes ago.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:46:05 GMT -5
Whether the high money comes from the customer or the restaurant, high end restaurants will expect high quality servers & will pay to get them or the restaurant will suffer.
Exactly, and my point is that these restaurants will either go way up or way down in quality. If they didn't have great food/service to begin with, they're going to sink to the lowest common denominator if tipping goes away. If they were already a great establishment, they'll raise their prices high enough to retain their waitstaff and stay afloat. At which point they'll be far too expensive for the average Joe, the way SUPER high quality restaurants are right now.
The result? No more middle-of-the-road restaurants. You can either have a super expensive great experience or you can have a really shitty cheap one.
I like my middle ground. DH and I don't pay $200 for a meal very often but when we do, I want to be able to count on the fact that they are expecting higher than average tips and working harder than average for them. The rest of the time, I'm fine with a mediocre experience.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 20, 2012 16:46:57 GMT -5
You just spent the last two pages arguing that higher end places don't hire low skill waiters, and they can't even get through the interview. So what sub-par experience are you worried about? The only servers working would be the highly skilled ones that are worth $70k because they're the only ones that can get through the interview, right?
The middle of the road one. See previous post.
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