What would you do to help?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jesus POM, that's a hell of a story.

I can totally see myself ending up there if I had remained friends with someone. The one time he visited a couple of months ago his sister showed up on my doorstep to tell him don't come home, his psycho ex had figured out where he lived.

DH almost, ALMOST offered to let him stay with us. If he had I would have punched him. I have plenty of experience with my friend's psycho exes, we don't need one showing up at our house. Thank God DH kept his mouth shut.

As much as I worry about him, I am glad my friend disappeared again. I do not need that kind of drama brought back into my life. Especially since this time around DH and Gwen would be towed along for the ride.

[thyme4change]

There was always a fair amount of competition from her towards me (as in her parents always asked when she would be like me).

Not one person ever said anything like this about me.

[happyhoix]

I agree with the friendly email or phone call from a distance, just to let her know you care and you're available to talk.

Veto the moving her in thing. You don't get 3 DUI's without having a serious problem. In my experience, most addicts have to really scrape bottom before they straighten themselves out, and even then, some addicts never 'get it.' Moving her in would only postpone the point at which she hits rock bottom, and worst case it can mean trying to figure out how to boot a crazy, vomiting drunk woman out of your house.

I know this is very hard to sit back and watch. I know you want to try to fix her. Unfortunately, unless she truly wants to change her lifestyle, you would probably end up just getting taken advantage of.

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

Doesn't someone usually have to .... go to jail/prison for three DUIs? (Or am I living in fantasyland here?)

[Peace Of Mind]

May 16, 2012 14:13:50 GMT -5 ❤ mollymouser ❤ said:

Doesn't someone usually have to .... go to jail/prison for three DUIs? (Or am I living in fantasyland here?)

I think California has the 3 strikes rule. Most states don't. We see on the news all the time how a person killing somebody while drunk driving has had 8 prior arrests. I guess our jails are so full they let the drunks off easier? I'm not sure.

[lurkyloo]

May 16, 2012 13:57:59 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

There was always a fair amount of competition from her towards me (as in her parents always asked when she would be like me).

Not one person ever said anything like this about me.

I got a hell of a lot of pressure to be more like my BFF...I can still hear my mother marveling at "Nineteen years old and she's already an assistant manager at the mall!" Fast-forward 15-25 years and, well, anything I say would sound like me patting myself on the back. She was the easy-going one, I was the driven one and on paper that shows in just about every category.

I think my mother still wishes I were more like BFF.

[Firebird]

May 16, 2012 14:13:50 GMT -5 ❤ mollymouser ❤ said:

Doesn't someone usually have to .... go to jail/prison for three DUIs? (Or am I living in fantasyland here?)

Believe the OP said her friend was just getting out of jail.

The specific penalties for any given DUI are heavily dependent on your state, how many priors you have, and how good your attorney is - but yes, you almost always go to jail and may face prison time for a third DUI.

[Firebird]

I think California has the 3 strikes rule. Most states don't. We see on the news all the time how a person killing somebody while drunk driving has had 8 prior arrests. I guess our jails are so full they let the drunks off easier? I'm not sure.

Again, it depends heavily on your lawyer, how drunk you were, what happened, and what a good girl/boy you've been prior to the DUI. If you pay for a good enough lawyer and no one got hurt, you can pretty much skate on a first offense, especially if you weren't that drunk. Sometimes even a second.

After that, much tougher. But you can still get out with a lighter penalty (i.e., maybe avoid prison) with a good lawyer.

If you get in an accident and hurt or kill someone, though, all bets are off. If OP's friend was released from jail (not prison) I'd guess she was only there for 60-90 days. That's a bit light but not unheard of, as long as she didn't cause an accident.

[Phoenix84]

Personally, I wouldn't offer her a place to stay. The only "help" I'd offer is a listening ear and counseling if she wants it. I wouldn't loan her money or give her a place to stay. Overall, just be a friend.

[Phoenix84]

Just curious, who's pressuring her to get married and have kids? Sounds like she needs to work on herself first and get her life in order. I doubt too many guys will want to date an ex con without a job and living with her parents.

[simser]

Sorry I've been at work and unable to post today.

1) her parents are pressuring her to get married and pass the bar. Her parents are the helicopter/tiger mom type personalities. I am very worried abouther having to move back in with them. If I wasn't, this coming to visit me wouldn't be so forefront in my mind.

2) I don't even know what she would be allowed to do- if she could visit or stay here is even a question I can't answer.

3) I agree that this is a huge cry for help! I don't know over the time span, but this is not a girl who ever had a problem with authority before this. As in she never got a detention or anything in all of the school. I think one of the conditions of her release is 90 AA meetings in 90 days. I think they've accepted that this is alcoholism.

4) Where she lives there is no bus line. It's a 5 minute drive to any store, and there's no bike lane. She already has a bike. This will be a problem for her.

5) I texted her last night. I said "I love you. Call whenever you if you need me or if you just want to talk." I got a response back immediately saying that it had been an interesting couple of months and that she'll call in a couple of days. I'm sure I'll get more of the story then, but mostly I just want her to know that I'm there for her, and I'm not judging. My heart is breaking for her. She is my best friend from childhood.

6)to make this remotely YM related: any money would be a gift and would not jeopardize my financial situation whatsoever. Her parents can also support her basic needs.

[skubikky]

simser: Your heart is in the right place but you're not thinking logically. She's hit what is probably rock bottom for her or at least close to it.
That will actually be what can make or break her rehab. She has to do it and has to go through the difficulty of putting her life back together.
You did the best thing you could and that was contacting her and letting her know that you're thinking about her.

Other than that you really need to stay out of it. Really. Addiction is a roller coaster ride for everyone involved and the more involved you are the more you're going to get tossed around.
You wouldn't be doing her any favors by facilitating a place to live or money right now. She needs to figure those things out for herself. In my experience, and I know what I'm talking about here from living through it with one of my in-laws, you need to step back and out. Concern and love are fine, but you can't put yourself in the midst of her attempt at recovery.

Do this for her and for yourself. Please.

[happyhoix]

6)to make this remotely YM related: any money would be a gift and would not jeopardize my financial situation whatsoever. Her parents can also support her basic needs.

The reason she's where she is today is probably because her parents have been supporting her all along.

I know it sounds harsh, but when a person is an addict, if you try to help them out with food and shelter, that only allows them to continue to be an addict. Why not, when they have a roof over their heads and something to eat? What is her motivation to straighten herself out when she can continue to live at her parents house for free and continue drinking? If you gave her money, it would probably end up going to buy booze.

What would really help her would be for her parents to get her into a rehab program, and to lay down the line that she can't move back home. She either works the program or, if she can't stand it, she's homeless and on her own. Once she has to figure out how to provide shelter and food for herself, she might finally turn herself around and get sober. Or she might live in a box on the street - her choice.

Please don't give her cash. If she moves out on her own, offer to pay the electric bill or pay a month's rent, if you really feel you want to contribute. It sounds like she really needs to separate herself from her parents, so maybe you could encourage her down that path - to be financially independent of them. But please don't give her cash gifts.

You have a very good heart and I know you miss your childhood friend, but the woman you know now is an addict, and they are selfish, cruel people - people who repeatedly drive drunk, for instance, even though they know they might kill someone.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

to make this remotely YM related: any money would be a gift and would not jeopardize my financial situation whatsoever. Her parents can also support her basic needs.

Do not gift her anything. I know this will sound harsh but it's going to be a lot like feeding a stray cat, she will never leave.

You will be setting yourself up to become her new enabler if you step in the way you want to. You aren't going to be her friend, you are going to be her latest stooge.

Do not give her money, do not offer her a place to live. Offer her a shoulder if you want but don't get sucked into her vortex.

Addicts are master manipulators, they know exactly what buttons to push to get people to assist them in their quest to get their next fix.

She has to come to the realization on her own this is a problem. She needs to seek help on her own and get her life back together on her own.

I recommend watching Intervention a few times and listen to what the counselers tell family/friends. It's pretty much what we've all been telling you.

You did plenty just by texting her, that is all the further your assistance should go. Do not offer anything to her besides an ear.

Just because she called you does not mean she is looking for help and has realized the error of her ways. She may be thinking that she can turn to you and get you "on her side" and you'll be easy to manipulate into helping her run from her problems.

It's a VERY easy trap to fall into no matter how much you swear you won't. Once you've opened that door it's very hard to get it shut. It's taken me since high school to finally slam the door shut on my addict friend.

Do nothing more than be a voice on the phone. If she ever committs to actually getting clean THEN you can slowly offer more support. I really encourage you to attend an Al-anon meeting yourself so you understanding what your friend is going thru.

[swamp]

May 16, 2012 14:13:50 GMT -5 ❤ mollymouser ❤ said:

Doesn't someone usually have to .... go to jail/prison for three DUIs? (Or am I living in fantasyland here?)

You're in fantasy land.

I deal with addicts regulary since I do criminal defense. And anyone who gets 3 DWI's is an alcoholic. Part of the persons realization that they have a problem comes from not having a support system anymore other than their drunk friends, and she's not going to get help until she wants it.

I'd give her phone calls, encouragement, and a shoulder to cry on, but any additional help would be enabling her.

I see people daily who are told by the judge, "You are an addict, what has happened to you is your fault. Either stop drinking/drugging our you will go to prison" and he also is pretty forgiving for relapses, (but not forgiving of criminal activity to fund relapses). A large percentage of those people end up in prison. The ones that don't take responsibility for their actions. The ones that go to prison are still blaming everyone but themselves.

[Angel!]

May 16, 2012 19:50:14 GMT -5 simser said:

3) I agree that this is a huge cry for help!

I wouldn't necessarily see it as a cry for help. It is a sign that there is a major problem, but until she identifies it as a problem, then your help will be unwanted & she won't change.

May 17, 2012 7:01:19 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Please don't give her cash. If she moves out on her own, offer to pay the electric bill or pay a month's rent, if you really feel you want to contribute.

I wouldn't even do that. There is essentially no difference between giving cash or paying a bill. Yeah they can't take your money straight to the liquor store, but now you just freed them from some obligations so they can take their own money to the liquor store. Paying bills is enabling & helps keep them from hitting rock bottom. Unless she has actually quit drinking & is in some sort of rehab/AA, then I would offer nothing other than talking.

Just my opinion, but I would absolutely not let her move in. 3 DUIs means she has a big problem & you will become her new enabler & caretaker should she still be drinking. If she is still drinking, then you are going to have a miserable few months & eventually be put into a position that you may have to kick her out & ruin your friendship. She needs professional help & more importantly she needs to really, really want to change.

[simser]

A quick update (sorry I was away walking for my PhD!).
She called me on Thursday. It was an odd conversation, and I didn't really hear a lot of accepting responsibility in her talking. I don't even remember what she said, but it was odd. I think I expected "OMG, what do I do now? How did I get so low? jail really woke me up" and I didn't hear any of that.

So new game plan is the distance thing. I'm more than happy to help out someone who is helping themselves. I didn't get that impression from her. So I'll listen but I can have my good bs meter going. Luckily I've had training in how to deal with crazy people without tipping my hand that I think they're crazy. Thanks for the reality check y'all!

[moxie]

"since I have a spare room and money to support a second person,"

Offer her emotional support ONLY when she gets HERSELF help. She has to want it. DO NOT take her in or give her ANY financial support...it WILL buy her alcohol! Don't be an ENABLER!

[swamp]

May 21, 2012 20:37:28 GMT -5 simser said:

A quick update (sorry I was away walking for my PhD!).
She called me on Thursday. It was an odd conversation, and I didn't really hear a lot of accepting responsibility in her talking. I don't even remember what she said, but it was odd. I think I expected "OMG, what do I do now? How did I get so low? jail really woke me up" and I didn't hear any of that.

Some people never get it. A friend of mine went to visit a friend of his from HS who is in prison for DWI. The guy is still blaming everyone else for where he is. You think he'd clue in by now that he is the reason he is there.

[moxie]

"She needs professional help & more importantly she needs to really, really want to change."

^EXACTLY...and in my experience, most alcoholics think that they don't have a problem, rather EVERYONE ELSE does! They will lie, steal, manipulate...they will hurt ANYONE!

[moxie]

"A friend of mine went to visit a friend of his from HS who is in prison for DWI. The guy is still blaming everyone else for where he is. You think he'd clue in by now that he is the reason he is there."

^And he will drink again as soon as he gets out too.

[Deleted]

Your friend might not yet be ready to help herself or take responsibility. Sometimes it takes people awhile to get to that place. And, i guess i feel like i will stand by my friends pretty much no matter what they are going through. If i can help them i will but i won't enable them to continue to destroy themselves. I think you can establish boundaries and strike a balance.

[lurkyloo]

It's tough waiting for someone to hit rock bottom and wake up. Kudos for recognizing that she's not in a place where she's ready to take responsibility, so helping her right now would be counterproductive.

And congrats on the new letters, Dr Simser!

[happyhoix]

May 21, 2012 20:37:28 GMT -5 simser said:

A quick update (sorry I was away walking for my PhD!).
She called me on Thursday. It was an odd conversation, and I didn't really hear a lot of accepting responsibility in her talking. I don't even remember what she said, but it was odd. I think I expected "OMG, what do I do now? How did I get so low? jail really woke me up" and I didn't hear any of that.
quote]

Oh yes, that's an addict talking. "Well I went over to see Jeff and they were drinking and it would have been rude for me not to drink too so I had one or two and then Bob wanted to go to this bar so we all drive over there and on the way this dog runs out in front of my car and I hit this parked car and the police came and said I was drunk - can you believe that, I only had 2 drinks, and besides, Bob and Jeff and all those other guys were WAY more drunk then I was and they got off scot free, can you believe that? I just have the worst luck, I can't believe they counted that as my 3rd DUI."

Addicts are so predictible. At least now you know where she stands. Congrats on your degree.

[Firebird]

I know it sounds harsh, but when a person is an addict, if you try to help them out with food and shelter, that only allows them to continue to be an addict. Why not, when they have a roof over their heads and something to eat? What is her motivation to straighten herself out when she can continue to live at her parents house for free and continue drinking?

happyhoix, I agree with you in principle that in this situation, people (even parents) should limit their assistance, but I disagree that having to keep yourself fed and housed is sufficient motivation to kick your addictions. I've known enough people that put mortgage payments up their nose and really screwed up their kids and spouses before getting clean to know that it's not always as simple as "if they have to provide for themselves then they will."

(I know you weren't saying that exactly but just wanted to say a word on the parents' behalf - were they helping, no, but it's also not their fault that their daughter refuses to take responsibility for her life, it's a tough thing to force someone to do.)

So new game plan is the distance thing. I'm more than happy to help out someone who is helping themselves. I didn't get that impression from her. So I'll listen but I can have my good bs meter going. Luckily I've had training in how to deal with crazy people without tipping my hand that I think they're crazy. Thanks for the reality check y'all!

Good job, simser. I know it's tough, and this is a tough stance to take. You'll thank yourself for it though. We're here for ya

[moxie]

"Addicts are so predictible."

OMG!! If THAT isn't the TRUTH!!

[Firebird]

OT: moxie haz cute puppiez.