Is affluence oppressive? / BOOK THREAD (see OP)

[Firebird]

From the article:

Paul Frick, a psychologist at the University of New Orleans who has studied risk factors for psychopathy in children for two decades, described one boy who used a knife to cut off the tail of the family cat bit by bit, over a period of weeks. The boy was proud of the serial amputations, which his parents initially failed to notice. “When we talked about it, he was very straightforward,” Frick recalls. “He said: ‘I want to be a scientist, and I was experimenting. I wanted to see how the cat would react.’ ”

OMFG. I feel so bad for these parents! Now I'm definitely getting nervous...

[Firebird]

“This isn’t like autism, where the child and parents will find support,” Edens observes. “Even if accurate, it’s a ruinous diagnosis. No one is sympathetic to the mother of a psychopath.”

Yeah, no joke. What in the world would you do if you found yourself in this situation?!

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

How do you miss that your cat's tail is shrinking? That is some serious fucking denial.

"Wants to be a scientist". More like wants to be Micheal Meyers.

[Firebird]

Finished the article. Whew. Talk about my worst nightmare. It's encouraging that at least some doctors are starting to recognize this kind of behavior and maybe treat it but it's like they said, if you don't have the "emotional hardware" necessary to feel emotion, then it's not something you can teach. The best these kids can do is feign.

Scary shit.

[Firebird]

***MORE TALK ABOUT BOOK, MILD SPOILERZ***

Oh, about the book - I forgot to say that I really liked the last few paragraphs. You were right, skinnykids, they were shocking. In Eva's place I doubt I could ever forgive Kevin - but I love stories with a thread of redemption, even if it's only a hint.

I want there to be a sequel now. Although the thought of KK + 5 years in Sing Sing is a little terrifying to contemplate. By the way, how the hell did he only get seven years for all those killings? I understand he wasn't tried as an adult but that still seems awfully light.

[Deleted]

Maybe, hopefully, they will learn to fake it till they feel it?
Kinda like when you are in a grouchy mood, pretend your not, and kind of snap out of it.
Hopefully.
I really hate the thought of these types of kids getting together with other kids like this.
Peer pressure is tough enough when you are normal.

[973beachbum]

May 15, 2012 8:28:17 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

WOW! I just finished the NYT article. I feel bad for those kids.

I do feel bad for the parents but it brought up a question. Who has a baby serial killer and says I need to have a couple more?

They said that they notices how bad it was just after having their second child. So why have number three? this kid isn't ADD or something. They literally say they are worried he will someday kill his younger brother.

[Formerly SK]

***More Spoilers***

Yeah, I'm 99% sure I wouldn't forgive my child (you never know until in the situation though). But I thought it was interesting after reading a whole book about how she felt she was a bad mother for not bonding with him, she chooses to let him move home after he gets out of prison. Talk about the ultimate mother decision. How do you live with someone who brutally murdered your husband and child? It was a fascinating twist.

Honestly, I don't get how she didn't take her daughter out of that situation after the blinding incident. That's the biggest thing I fault her for. If you suspect your child is being abused BY ANYONE your obligation is to the child. I cannot fathom how she didn't act on that.

[Firebird]

I really hate the thought of these types of kids getting together with other kids like this.
Peer pressure is tough enough when you are normal.

Presumably these kids don't give a rat's ass about peer pressure (since for that to work, you need to care about what other kids think of you and feel hurt when you're excluded) but it did strike me as a SUPERBLY bad idea to get them all together in a concentrated environment to study them.

Sociopaths are known to be charming, manipulative, persuasive, and have great control over their peers. So one tiny sociopath rising above all the other tiny sociopaths (like that little girl L) can only mean bad, bad things.

I'd bet money that if these kids were teenagers, an animal at the camp would have wound up dead by the end of the eight weeks. At a MINIMUM.

[Firebird]

I do feel bad for the parents but it brought up a question. Who has a baby serial killer and says I need to have a couple more?

I can think of several reasons you might. As a parent, maybe you'd want to feel validated that it's not your fault. Having a "normal" kid would at least give you someone to point to and say "see, this one turned out just fine."

Or you want another kid living in your house for comparison's sake because you're having trouble distinguishing what's "all in your head" from what's actually going on.

Or you think that having a little helpless sibling to look after might actually help your child develop empathy.

Or you don't really think your kid is all that bad. You're in denial. So you have no reason not to have another one. I imagine that would be a super common reason. Not every parent is as self-aware as the woman in the article, not by a long shot.

Or, like Eva, (little spoiler warning) you are desperate to bond with a child just to prove to yourself that you CAN... so you give yourself another chance.

Lots of potential reasons.

[Deleted]

I like spoilers. Sometimes I read the last chapter of a book first. ;D

[Firebird]

****SPOILERS*****

Honestly, I don't get how she didn't take her daughter out of that situation after the blinding incident. That's the biggest thing I fault her for. If you suspect your child is being abused BY ANYONE your obligation is to the child. I cannot fathom how she didn't act on that.

She couldn't get Franklin to take her concerns seriously. I think that was the biggest issue. She got him to agree that Kevin wouldn't watch her anymore, but beyond that, Franklin refused to believe that she hadn't left the cleaner out and so it was really all her fault anyway. He was just too blinded to his son's suspicious behavior to see it (and really, I was ready to bang my head on the desk after Kevin shrugged the whole thing off... any normal kid would at least have been concerned about his sister, you'd think Franklin might have at least raised an eyebrow at that).

Also, she had no proof. If you "suspected" your kid had been molested by, say, their thirteen year old cousin, but you couldn't get your kid to confirm it and no one else believed you, then you'd have to question whether the whole thing was in your head and you'd have a devil of a time justifying why the cousin should never come to your house ever again.

All she ever had was suspicion.

What I thought was peculiar about that incident was the way the doctors just accepted Kevin's version of events. Even the smallest children don't tip their head back so they can pour the contents of a bottle directly into their own eye. They just don't.

The most a kid would do is maybe play with the bottle, get some on their hand, and rub their eye - and if that's all that had happened, I'm betting they could have saved Celia's eye even if her vision wasn't perfect. For the damage the book described, you'd pretty much have to pour some directly into your eye, and what reason could a six year old possibly have for doing that? Every six year old I've ever met is old enough to know not to mess with chemicals anyway, so the likelihood that she touched the bottle at all seems low to me. But especially, she wouldn't have done THAT.

[midjd]

Is sociopathy genetic? Have they figured that out yet?

One of my brother's classmates was a sociopath - started killing animals at a young age, ended up stabbing a cop when he was 11 or 12. He was put into a juvenile facility and got out a few years ago (he'd be 22-23). I'm not sure what can be done with people like that.

It's a similar principle as pedophila. On one hand, it's sad - I don't think people can help how they're wired. I don't think anyone WANTS to be a born a sociopath, or a psychopath, or a pedophile. But still, you can't just let them live their lives and satisfy their desires the way the rest of society does - since their desires usually involve causing pain to someone/something. I don't know the answer.

[Firebird]

Is sociopathy genetic? Have they figured that out yet?

From the article (I haven't done any research on this), the answer seems to be yes - at least in part. Their brains actually lack the portion responsible for feelings and empathy.

It makes sense, too, because if it was entirely a matter of nurture then these kids wouldn't be the way they are from such a young age. Right from the word go, even as babies, they don't act normally and seem to only get worse. Non-genetic disorders have to be learned over a period of time, don't they?

[thyme4change]

Who has a baby serial killer and says I need to have a couple more?

I don't know about other people, but my kids are 20 months apart, which means I got pregnant shortly after my first started walking, and not even talking. Even if my first had been a "difficult" baby, I probably wouldn't have seen the signs of serious mental / social problems in time to prevent a second baby.

[midjd]

But I wonder if there's a specific gene that causes it - or a mutation, maybe? If you have one sociopathic child, does that increase your chances of having another? Is the sociopath able to pass along this disorder to any of his/her kids? Seems like the sociopaths I've known have been the only ones in their families... but I haven't known many.

So many questions, too bad I'm too lazy to look up the answers

[Cookies Galore]

May 15, 2012 12:43:42 GMT -5 Firebird said:

***MORE TALK ABOUT BOOK, MILD SPOILERZ***

Oh, about the book - I forgot to say that I really liked the last few paragraphs. You were right, skinnykids, they were shocking. In Eva's place I doubt I could ever forgive Kevin - but I love stories with a thread of redemption, even if it's only a hint.

I want there to be a sequel now. Although the thought of KK + 5 years in Sing Sing is a little terrifying to contemplate. By the way, how the hell did he only get seven years for all those killings? I understand he wasn't tried as an adult but that still seems awfully light.

it's been a few months since I read the book, but didn't he commit the murders a few weeks before his 16th birthday, when the sentence would have been tougher?

[Firebird]

On one hand, it's sad - I don't think people can help how they're wired. I don't think anyone WANTS to be a born a sociopath, or a psychopath, or a pedophile. But still, you can't just let them live their lives and satisfy their desires the way the rest of society does - since their desires usually involve causing pain to someone/something. I don't know the answer.

Me either. It's sad and scary.

I saw a Law & Order once where a boy came to the police admitting that he was having thoughts of molesting his younger brother. He didn't want to act on them, but the urge was getting stronger and he didn't know what to do. IIRC, they ended up making him register as a sex offender for that. I think they even jailed him.

So obviously if you're going to be penalized for coming forward and asking for help, that's a pretty big disincentive (especially if you haven't actually DONE anything to deserve it). But what else were they supposed to do, send him home to the little boy after he made that kind of admission? And what if it had been one of his parents who admitted that? Foster care?

I don't know the answer either.

[Firebird]

BOOK TALK.

it's been a few months since I read the book, but didn't he commit the murders a few weeks before his 16th birthday, when the sentence would have been tougher?

Yes, he did have the foresight to act before he turned 16. But it just makes me wonder how they calculated his sentence. That works out to a little more than half a year per murder. As an adult, you can get more time for far less violent crimes. I just wonder what the rationale was behind "two years in juvie, five years in freaking SING SING." That's quite a leap. Wouldn't it have made more sense to let him out at 18 or at least let him stay in juvie until he was 21, if they were going to be that lenient?

[Firebird]

But I wonder if there's a specific gene that causes it - or a mutation, maybe? If you have one sociopathic child, does that increase your chances of having another?

The article did hint that this trait could possibly run in families - so if you're a sociopath yourself and you have a child, you might well raise another sociopath.

But that's a chicken and egg question, because I wouldn't expect a sociopath to be able to bond with their own child and the article ALSO suggested that it doesn't help these kids get better when their parents start to avoid them and quit trying to bond with them. So would you be nurturing a sociopath out of lack of empathy, or would you have one that by nature was just like you?

Anyway, I don't know if there's anything to that because apart from serious denial issues, most of the parents of sociopaths I've heard or read about seem like very nice, normal people.

[Cookies Galore]

As far as the flowery writing, I did find it annoying at first and thought the book started slow, but it really made the Eva character. Here was this worldly, strong, empowered, pretentious woman deigning to procreate simply to please the man she was deleriously crazy for. The author really did a good job of creating her, i could totally visualize Eva in real life. I still have to see the movie, but I do like the idea of Tilda swinton as Eva.

[midjd]

But that's a chicken and egg question, because I wouldn't expect a sociopath to be able to bond with their own child and the article ALSO suggested that it doesn't help these kids get better when their parents start to avoid them and quit trying to bond with them. So would you be nurturing a sociopath out of lack of empathy, or would you have one that by nature was just like you?

Anyway, I don't know if there's anything to that because apart from serious denial issues, most of the parents of sociopaths I've heard or read about seem like very nice, normal people.

Hmm... back to the nature vs. nurture question

I find it especially interesting as narcissistic personality disorder seems to run in my family - NPDnd of similar to sociopathy as far as lack of empathy for others, but without the animal abuse/firebug aspect. My dad and aunt are both textbook narcissists, and I'm not sure if my grandmother was as well, or if their personality development (or lack thereof) was a product of their childhood and how they were raised. (VERY strict, hyper-controlling, hyper-religious family).

None of the 8 kids between my dad/aunt are narcissists - so I'm thinking it may have been more of a nurture thing. But then, 8 isn't a huge sample size... a narcissist or two could pop up in the next generation.

[Formerly SK]

May 15, 2012 13:11:15 GMT -5 Firebird said:

****SPOILERS*****

Honestly, I don't get how she didn't take her daughter out of that situation after the blinding incident. That's the biggest thing I fault her for. If you suspect your child is being abused BY ANYONE your obligation is to the child. I cannot fathom how she didn't act on that.

She couldn't get Franklin to take her concerns seriously. I think that was the biggest issue. She got him to agree that Kevin wouldn't watch her anymore, but beyond that, Franklin refused to believe that she hadn't left the cleaner out and so it was really all her fault anyway. He was just too blinded to his son's suspicious behavior to see it (and really, I was ready to bang my head on the desk after Kevin shrugged the whole thing off... any normal kid would at least have been concerned about his sister, you'd think Franklin might have at least raised an eyebrow at that).

Also, she had no proof. If you "suspected" your kid had been molested by, say, their thirteen year old cousin, but you couldn't get your kid to confirm it and no one else believed you, then you'd have to question whether the whole thing was in your head and you'd have a devil of a time justifying why the cousin should never come to your house ever again.

All she ever had was suspicion.

What I thought was peculiar about that incident was the way the doctors just accepted Kevin's version of events. Even the smallest children don't tip their head back so they can pour the contents of a bottle directly into their own eye. They just don't.

The most a kid would do is maybe play with the bottle, get some on their hand, and rub their eye - and if that's all that had happened, I'm betting they could have saved Celia's eye even if her vision wasn't perfect. For the damage the book described, you'd pretty much have to pour some directly into your eye, and what reason could a six year old possibly have for doing that? Every six year old I've ever met is old enough to know not to mess with chemicals anyway, so the likelihood that she touched the bottle at all seems low to me. But especially, she wouldn't have done THAT.

See, and I feel like if you have a suspicion then you act. If I suspected my child was being molested, I absolutely would stop contact. And if my DH didn't agree with me then I would divorce. Mothers need to protect their children. I always thought it was funny how she beat herself up for not bonding, but why did she never take Kevin for assessments? They had the money to see any kind of specialist. Even if she did it behind Franklin's back just to get validation and treatment/parenting advice. The mom seemed weak not in that she didn't bond, but that she didn't have that "inner tiger" that drives you to protect. She had dozens of incidences and yet did nothing. I mean, the entire playgroup didn't like her son...that's what...half a dozen opinions that something is wrong?

It's funny, I volunteer at my DC's schools and tend to work with the slower kids on reading skills. It never ceases to amaze me that there are parents who don't help their kids. Me, if my kids show sign of a deficiency in some area I'm all over it. The kids I help at school, their parents have been repeatedly told their kids are behind and yet don't get them help. I don't know if it is denial or what, but how can you not recognize your child has an issue and then not take steps to solve it?

[Firebird]

None of the 8 kids between my dad/aunt are narcissists - so I'm thinking it may have been more of a nurture thing. But then, 8 isn't a huge sample size... a narcissist or two could pop up in the next generation.

Don't be silly, Mid, 8 is more than enough anecdotal evidence to support a theory, at least by YM standards. Remember?

[midjd]

Haha! You've got me there.

Now I feel like I need to read this book, even though I already read the spoiler alerts.

[Cookies Galore]

Skinny, i don't think she did anything because of Franklin. She had a very intense love/obsession with him and i think the thought of potentially losing him was more scary than whatever she thought Kevin was capable of. Did she believe her son was capable of murder? Would it have mattered if she got to keep Franklin?

[Cookies Galore]

Mid, i spoiled the book for myself before i started reading and there was still so much going on, even with knowing the end. Read it!

[Deleted]

Thyme (and anybody else)

I'm sorry, you're right. I added "spoiler alert" to that post.

[Firebird]

See, and I feel like if you have a suspicion then you act. If I suspected my child was being molested, I absolutely would stop contact. And if my DH didn't agree with me then I would divorce.

This is a judgment call. What exactly happened?

I wrote out a couple different scenarios and then decided it wasn't such a great idea to write down in detail what kind of scenes a parent might walk in on that would make them think molestation was occurring, so I'll just say that there are different orders of suspicion. There are tableaus that look "slightly suspicious" but under the facts aren't THAT damning, and it's mostly your gut sense that make them maleficent.

It's sometimes hard to make a meal out of those, especially to the point of restricting a family member from visiting or actually divorcing your spouse. Of course you shouldn't ignore a gut sense that something is wrong, but there are less drastic ways to keep an eye on the situation, like making sure that family member is never alone with your kid again.

Then there are more overt scenarios that you SHOULD act on immediately, that I WOULD absolutely expect my DH to back me up on. So it would kind of depend on what we were talking about - exactly what happened, who was sitting where, was there nudity involved, did I actually see any touching, etc. And what kind of scene I stumbled upon would absolutely impact the action I took.

You do raise a good point about taking the boy to a specialist, though. I'm surprised she didn't do that, now that you mention it.

[Firebird]

Now I feel like I need to read this book, even though I already read the spoiler alerts.

It's very worth reading, and I intend to reread it again right now even though I already know what happens.