Exposure to many faiths can confirm core belief

[Deleted]

Since I believe the creator is in fact energy, not a man in the sky, then yes, I would expect you to understand that the creator is the starting point of everything.

So you worship at the Church of the Big Bang? 

I think the confusion is coming about because when someone hears another using the term "god" they assume they mean a deity, not energy. 

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Lol, classic will have to remember that one.

I agree, and I have made that point a few times, once someone hears God, they think of church.. Instead of asiking questions and learning about someone else thoughts, like some on here are claiming, they go into attack mode.. Great point, beerwitch!

[Deleted]

Thanks! Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

[Angel!]

May 14, 2014 11:29:55 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Angle, first, what I was talking about with astrology is that it, and things like alchemy are the basis for our modern science. Again read the book I was telling you about, "Science A Four Thousand Year History".

Again, when something can be explained, like your car starting, just because you are unable to understand it doesn't mean others don't. There is no argument, it happens for a reason and is fully understood. What you are proving with your dragon theory is that if you don't understand something you choose to close your mind to possibilities, simply because of your personal beliefs

Again, we(humans) have done tests on the universe and it all leads to the creation at a single point. Our tests prove everything is connected through proven theory such as the Higgs Boson. So, just like gravity, oxygen, and natural gas where at one point invisible and unknown, through scientific processes we have made their discovery. Again, you are choosing what part of the scientific process you believe in, simply because of your personal beliefs.

I'm not leaping to any conclusions about God's existence, our existence proves God's existence. See the quote by Alfred Russell Wallace above for further details.

The fact you understand you can't prove a negative should at least lead you to the conclusion that something had to create the universe. Since I believe the creator is in fact energy, not a man in the sky, then yes, I would expect you to understand that the creator is the starting point of everything. My guess would be that it created itself and expanded and multiplied.(Like spontaneous combustion)

Our God is what the Magi described as Wise God, and it's the same God that spoke to Abraham. This is why the Magi knew about the prophecy of the north star when the Jewish people didn't. It's the same God that has been pushing us to understanding through knowledge and scientific process. A process that has been developing for thousands of years and has been influenced by every civilization that has ever existed.

Thus, the reason I think it's important for children to be taught about different cultures and religions. It's also why I believe that JC is, in fact, the Messiah that will eventually bring peace to earth. Not because he will return like in Islamic and Christian scripture, but because of his actions while he was here on Earth. AKA, in the historical sense like Hebrew scripture is.

In other words, God comes from many books and from all four corners of the Earth, and most importantly, from love, knowledge, and understanding.

For the record, if you want to believe there is no God it's fine with me. I know I won't change your mind, and that's fine, it really doesn't matter to me I'm not here to "save" anyone. With the sheer amount of scientific minds that have came to the conclusion over the millenniums that there is a God, and with how many in recent years have turned to God, it tells me everything. You can argue with me til your blue in the face about dragon theory or whatever else you want. Unless you can prove there is no God, I will choose to have an open mind and listen to the people who are responsible for basically everything we know about the sciences and the universe.

And this is why I like talking about religion. This entire post is just interesting. 

Take a look at religion from the outside, if you had never been exposed to it:  God is omnipotent & knows everything. God created the world & everything in it.  God makes a rule about a fruit that absolutely must be followed.  God's creation broke the rule (God should not be surprised. why is god punishing something when he knew it would happen?).  God punishes not only the rulebreakers, but all their descendents forever (because that makes sense ). A long time passes & god wants to give us all an opportunity to be forgiven for our sins.  So he sends his son (virgin birth and all!) to be punished for our sins.  (Again why?  He is omnipotent, why not just forgive us without the show?). So now we are all forgiven as long as we show love for the dude that died for us.

There is a lot more I could go into & I am aware I kind of picked some basic christian aspects that don't apply to all religions.  But, you have to realize the story from the outside sounds crazy & doesn't make a damn bit of sense. It is just hard to look at from the outside because most of us were raised hearing the story from birth.

But, I like your post.  I am the close-minded one for not believing, but somehow you don't realize you are just as close-minded for not considering there may not be a god. We are exactly the same, just opposite sides of the coin.

And then you don't realize the craziness of saying that our mere existence proves god's existence.  I know you believe that, but trust me when I say the logic doesn't follow.  You laugh at my car-starting dragon, but you don't realize that to an outside observer, your god makes no more sense than a car-starting dragon. Both are insane theories on the face. You are just so deep into yours that you see proof of your god in everything.  Seeing proof of my dragon in the fact that my car starts is no more silly, despite what you think.

And then you jumped on me for talking about a book (and therefore religion & not god), but you are clearly talking about the abrahamic god & therefore the bible.  Yes, I suppose the creator could be anything, but when you say god, you mean the god of the bible & JC.

There is just some basic human ability to halt the thought of logic when it comes to religion & it fascinates me.  I don't know if it is because it is a story that we are told from childhood so we just never really question it.  Earlier when I said, as I get older I don't understand how people believe some of the things they do....well this is what I meant.  To me God is like Santa Claus & I just don't understand how people at some point don't stop believing when they get older. 

Maybe this makes me close minded, but I just really don't get it.  I read the stories, read stories of other religions, see how the history of christianity & the stories clearly come from older religions & I just don't doubt that at the end they are just all made up.  I just see that as the most logical conclusion when you study the stories and history. In fact, christianity makes MORE sense when you view it this way.  For example - why bread & wine to represent the flesh & blood of christ?  How does that make any sense?  Seriously, look at this from an outsider view & why does this seem logically at all?  IMO, it doesn't until you realize dionysus was the egyptian god of wheat & wine & that was something they did for him.  The tradition makes a lot more sense for a god of wheat & wine.  And then you learn he was born of a virgin too.  Well, then suddenly you realize christianity is just a morphing of older relgions.  And then when you get there, well I just can't understand how others still believe. I suppose much like you can't understand how I don't believe & I see no proof of god anywhere.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Angle, even the person who is responsible by and large for the theory of natural selection(Alfred Russell Wallace), believed that our mere presence and how we have developed is proof of an intelligent designer. So logic does follow this line of thinking, it's just a matter of understanding that evolution isn't possible without design.

I understand where your issues with dogma come into play, trust me. For years I believed there was no God just because I wanted to rebel. The problem is that the more I read about people like Einstein, Newton, and how religious institutions are responsible for what we have today regarding science, the more I realized that there has to be an intelligent designer. It's simply not possible that something was created from nothing.

So yes I do understand what it's like to look from the outside in. I understand that Catholic dogma is based off of other religions. What you have to understand is that in Hebrew texts there is tons of history and the more we excavate Israel, the more it's proven to be accurate.

So yes, part of my understanding of God comes from Hebrew texts, and again, even the Magi knew that Abraham was talking about the Wise God. If you look at who and for how long the Magi have been around for, you will understand why this is significant.

The other significant part to Hebrew text is that they prophesied a Messiah that will bring peace(love, understanding, and knowledge) to the human race. Both Muslims and Christians believe that JC was this person and about 2/3 of the world follow the doctrine of these two religions. While the root religion of these two does not believe JC was the Messiah.

Just think about how significant a small, persecuted movement under Roman rule 2000 yrs ago, growing into the biggest religions on Earth is.

Again looking from the outside in, I think the idea of free will is lost inside of religious institutions. Therefore, I don't think God knows exactly what we will do. I think like any good parent he knows what he would like us to do, and God has the ability to do what is necessary in the natural world to eventually make things work out the way God wants. This is why I believe that JC is the Messiah that Hebrew text are talking about. There has been no other human in the history of the world that has continued to gain momentum in the way JC has.

In other words, we humans are responsible for our own actions and yet when bad things happen we want to blame God for them. Which is why, unfortunate, it's looking more and more like we are going to have to go through some serious crap over the next decade. We humans have pushed things to the breaking point again, and are about to learn some serious humility.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

May 14, 2014 12:03:39 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Thanks! Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

I like you, you're funny!    

This is what scares me about the state of global affairs right now though... Lots of these hate mongers look to be getting another turn in the light... 

[mmhmm]

For the record, if you want to believe there is no God it's fine with me. I know I won't change your mind, and that's fine, it really doesn't matter to me I'm not here to "save" anyone. With the sheer amount of scientific minds that have came to the conclusion over the millenniums that there is a God, and with how many in recent years have turned to God, it tells me everything. You can argue with me til your blue in the face about dragon theory or whatever else you want. Unless you can prove there is no God, I will choose to have an open mind and listen to the people who are responsible for basically everything we know about the sciences and the universe.

There are at least as many scientific minds who are atheists, Aham, so that's not really a good measure.  Neither is saying: "Prove there is no God".  The science you extol tells us a negative cannot be proven.  People will believe what it's right for them to believe.  I guess I'll never understand why there needs to be argument about it.  Some believe.  Some do not believe.

[Angel!]

May 14, 2014 13:46:22 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Angle, even the person who is responsible by and large for the theory of natural selection(Alfred Russell Wallace), believed that our mere presence and how we have developed is proof of an intelligent designer. So logic does follow this line of thinking, it's just a matter of understanding that evolution isn't possible without design.

Evolution is possible without design.  I think often people who claim their must be a designer don't understand evolution well enough.

I understand where your issues with dogma come into play, trust me. For years I believed there was no God just because I wanted to rebel.

I don't consider myself a rebel. I just believe what I believe. And the more I researched all religions & the science behind evolution, the more convinced I became that our existence does not require a creator & religions don't make a damn bit of sense. And with those two beliefs, there is no reason to believe there is a creator. Doesn't mean there isn't one I suppose, but I have no need for a diety that wants to hide his presence, so I choose to believe he doesn't exist.

So yes I do understand what it's like to look from the outside in. I understand that Catholic dogma is based off of other religions. What you have to understand is that in Hebrew texts there is tons of history and the more we excavate Israel, the more it's proven to be accurate.

Of course much of the scriptures & texts are based in historical fact. I am not calling all of it lies. Just saying there is no god & that aspect of the scriptures is not true.

Just think about how significant a small, persecuted movement under Roman rule 2000 yrs ago, growing into the biggest religions on Earth is.

I guess I don't find it that significant. If it wasn't JC & this religion, it would have been another guy & another version of religion. There were actually a ton of dudes at the time claiming to be the messiah. JC just won the jackpot & Paul was a huge part in the early spread.

[Angel!]

And for the record, I don't really have any problem with the idea of religious institutions (although some have issues).  I think it is great for people with something in common to gather and support each other.  I also think traditions are wonderful.  I celebrate both easter & christmas, I just consider them secular & family tradition. 

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Some believe. Some do not believe.

Exactly mmhmm, and I'm done explaining where I'm coming from because this has just turned into a cyclical conversation with people who are firm in their beliefs, and I just don't have the time to carry on with pointless conversation.(meaning that none of us are about to change our point of view)

So to you and Angle, I wish the best and I guess we will see where things and up over the next decade.

[Angel!]

May 14, 2014 14:19:53 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Some believe. Some do not believe.

Exactly mmhmm, and I'm done explaining where I'm coming from because this has just turned into a cyclical conversation with people who are firm in their beliefs, and I just don't have the time to carry on with pointless conversation.(meaning that none of us are about to change our point of view)

So to you and Angle, I wish the best and I guess we will see where things and up over the next decade.

Best to you as well.  I thought the conversation was interesting, but then I never intended to change your point of view.  If a short conversation online managed to do that, well your beliefs weren't very strong to begin with.  I just find people interesting is all

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

The conversation was interesting for sure, but when someone says to me that Alred Russell Wallace, they guy who conceived evolution and natural selection didn't really understand what he was talking about, there isn't much sense to carrying on at that point.

If you want to down play JC significance, there again, I can't find any logic in that. You are essentially saying that the biggest historical figure that has ever lived, that has more of an effect on this world than anyone else, is of no real significance. Why? Because you just don't believe it's important...

This is why there is no point to carrying on on this thread. However, I do have something in mind for a new one now.

[Angel!]

May 14, 2014 15:46:09 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

If you want to down play JC significance, there again, I can't find any logic in that. You are essentially saying that the biggest historical figure that has ever lived, that has more of an effect on this world than anyone else, is of no real significance. Why? Because you just don't believe it's important...

I know the conversation is basically over, but wanted to correct one point.  I never said JC was not significant.  He is one of the most significant/impactful historical figures that ever lived.

What I meant is that I don't find significance in the fact that he specifically became such a huge figure.  If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else who would have gone on to be one of the most significant figures in history. 

Take that how you wish

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

That's exactly the way I understood it.

You personally don't see the significance in why it's important that a young Jewish lad ended up having a bigger impact on this world than any other figure in history. In other words, nothing happens for a reason and no supernatural force could have had a hand in making JC into what he is today. Why? Magic dragons and the inability to prove a negative.(I would say this is you playing down the significance of JC. As there is no proof that another Jewish figure would have had this kind of impact, my apologies)

[Angel!]

As long as we are on the same page as to what I was saying, I thought you may have misunderstood  

I agree, there may not have been another Jewish figure to take his place.  But, in the history of all civilization I don't think there has been a single culture that did not have a religion & along with that religion one or several significant historical figures.  So if not JC & our current version of Christianity, then someone else & some other religion.  That is why I don't find the existence of a significant religious figure to be all that surprising, regardless of that person's background & origin.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Right, but it wasn't someone else and we are where we are for a reason, and that reason is JC and his beliefs. So you can have an existential veiw of the past if you want,but it doesn't change the facts. Which is why I love history, there is a certain undeniability to it.