On Roe v. Wade's Anniversary: Let's Reflect

[Loopdilou]

You can check Wikipedia.. I don't remember where I got the 0.8 to be honest, but according to Wikipedia 6.2% of all abortions in the US are performed after 13 weeks... after 21 weeks you're down to 1.4% and after 24 weeks they have it as 0.08% - lower than I thought!

[Loopdilou]

Jan 22, 2011 16:55:12 GMT -5 oped said:

Its not murder if its done to save the life of the mother... at that point its triage.

Damnit! I already exalted STEFF!!! I owe you one

[Deleted]

Its all about personal freedom... did you watch my link to the author of Atlas Shrugged talking about her stand on freedom of choice... I read Atlas Shrugged for the first time when i was 16... as i've said before... nice fairy tale... very little reality... but the fact that you would refer people to Rand in an anti-abortion thread is hysterical...

Here's a quote for you too..
"Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a 'right to life.' A piece of protoplasm has no rights -— and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable." Ayn Rand

[Loopdilou]

As of 2003 there were about 1,024 post-24 week abortions in the US. Not really all that much murder, actually

[billisonboard]

Jan 22, 2011 16:55:19 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

I am not yet to the part that tells people to kill babies. Could you tell me what page that is on-- or are you just whining?

[Loopdilou]

Jan 22, 2011 16:59:16 GMT -5 oped said:

Its all about personal freedom... did you watch my link to the author of Atlas Shrugged talking about her stand on freedom of choice... I read Atlas Shrugged for the first time when i was 16... as i've said before... nice fairy tale... very little reality... but the fact that you would refer people to Rand in an anti-abortion thread is hysterical...

Here's a quote for you too..
"Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a 'right to life.' A piece of protoplasm has no rights -— and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable." Ayn Rand

I have to agree.. I read Atlas Shrugged for the first time at about 14, and have read it 3 or four times since then. Cool story, stupid, poorly thought out philosophy. Anthem is a particularly good Science Fiction novel too.

[formerexpat]

I'll have to read up on that expat, but its a slippery slope there... next you'll have mothers being charged with murder if, say they go skiing in the first trimester and have a wipe out and miscarry (or anything really, i'm no in 'example' mode at the moment) ...

Eventually you'll have women held hostige by their fetuses... if they do anything that isn't in the best interest of the fetus (as determined by who?)... then they risk a murder charge if something goes wrong... maybe just manslaughter actually... still... something to consider when you give a blob of cells more rights than the person carrying it around...

[/size]

How is it arbitrarily determined now?

So a man and woman shouldn't be equally responsible for the harm they inflict on a fetus? The man is charged with homicide while the woman shouldn't be held hostage by a "blob of cells"?

Another case of the court systems treating men much differently than women.

Have you ever seen a blob of cells at 13, 16 or 20 weeks? Pretty crazy how much that blob of cells looks exactly like a small human skeleton from inside the womb. Here ya go:

www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=882&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=ultrasound+13+weeks&aq=f&aqi=g3g-m4&aql=&oq=

www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=882&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=ultrasound+16+weeks&aq=f&aqi=g4g-m6&aql=&oq=

www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=882&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=ultrasound+20+weeks&aq=f&aqi=g3g-m7&aql=&oq=

I don't disagree that it's a slippery slope but that slope should be the same for both men and women, regardless of the gender that's been nominated for carrying the child.

[Loopdilou]

To me, people who follow Ayn Rand are a bit like people who follow L. Ron Hubbard (and Fox news) - easily manipulated by their baser emotions.

[deziloooooo]

Jan 22, 2011 16:30:11 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

after that, only in cases of maternal health

What about a woman who is depressed in her 8th month over the idea of having a baby? Or gets divorced during her 7th month and has major anxiety over how to support the new baby? Maternal health?

Only you would bring up something like that ed..what about it...
is that what your Mom mentioned to you, you were so lucky that...

[Loopdilou]

Jan 22, 2011 17:01:28 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

I'll have to read up on that expat, but its a slippery slope there... next you'll have mothers being charged with murder if, say they go skiing in the first trimester and have a wipe out and miscarry (or anything really, i'm no in 'example' mode at the moment) ...

Eventually you'll have women held hostige by their fetuses... if they do anything that isn't in the best interest of the fetus (as determined by who?)... then they risk a murder charge if something goes wrong... maybe just manslaughter actually... still... something to consider when you give a blob of cells more rights than the person carrying it around...

[/size]


How is it arbitrarily determined now?

So a man and woman shouldn't be equally responsible for the harm they inflict on a fetus? The man is charged with homicide while the woman shouldn't be held hostage by a "blob of cells"?

Another case of the court systems treating men much differently than women.

Have you ever seen a blob of cells at 13, 16 or 20 weeks? Pretty crazy how much that blob of cells looks exactly like a small human skeleton from inside the womb. Here ya go:

www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=882&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=ultrasound+13+weeks&aq=f&aqi=g3g-m4&aql=&oq=

www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=882&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=ultrasound+16+weeks&aq=f&aqi=g4g-m6&aql=&oq=

www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=882&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=ultrasound+20+weeks&aq=f&aqi=g3g-m7&aql=&oq=

I don't disagree that it's a slippery slope but that slope should be the same for both men and women, regardless of the gender that's been nominated for carrying the child.[/quote]

But men are only charged with murder because they've taken away the RIGHT OF CHOICE from the mother. If the mother chose to have the fetus aborted, it isn't murder. Pretty simple, really.

You only seem to have a problem post 13 weeks... what about before 13 weeks?

[Deleted]

One method of destroying a concept is by diluting its meaning. Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living.

AYN RAND, The Ayn Rand Lexicon

Abortion is a moral right -- which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered. Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?[/li][li] Ayn Rand in Of Living Death

Ayn Rand wrote:
If any among you are confused or taken in by the argument that the cells of an embryo are living human cells, remember that so are all the cells of your body, including the cells of your skin, your tonsils, or your ruptured appendix—and that cutting them is murder, according to the notions of that proposed law. Remember also that a potentiality is not the equivalent of an actuality—and that a human being’s life begins at birth.

[Deleted]

Stats show that the great majority of aborted fetuses were aborted for convenience. 1% are for health of mother, baby, rape, or incest. I've posted that, with the link, so many times, I am not going to bother doing it again.

You guys watched Gianna, right-- the living abortion??
No one can say what a murdered baby MAY have become. We will never know, because it was killed. Just a question for you maddog lib abortion extremists (which is not all of you, I hope)----- are you aware that most abortions are performed on minority women?? HOW do you justify that and still maintain your "rights are racists!!!" stance?? HOW?

[ed1066]

Its not murder if its done to save the life of the mother... at that point its triage.

So if a mother in the 8th month is having thoughts of suicide (or at least says she is), you would be okay with an abortion at that point?

[Loopdilou]

Stats show that the great majority of aborted fetuses were aborted for convenience. 1% are for health of mother, baby, rape, or incest. I've posted that, with the link, so many times, I am not going to bother doing it again.

You guys watched Gianna, right-- the living abortion??
No one can say what a murdered baby MAY have become. We will never know, because it was killed. Just a question for you maddog lib abortion extremists (which is not all of you, I hope)----- are you aware that most abortions are performed on minority women?? HOW do you justify that and still maintain your "rights are racists!!!" stance?? HOW?

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=modifypost&thread=2099&post=79089#ixzz1Bnx94f58

Oh, but you have to do it again - this is a whole new board

And it isn't MOST abortions, actually.. it's about half of the abortions.. less than half, actually.

[billisonboard]

krickitt,
What happens to the souls of those murdered babies?

[ed1066]

Only you would bring up something like that ed..what about it...
is that what your Mom mentioned to you, you were so lucky that...

Sounds like you're afraid to look at my questions and have an honest conversation with yourself. If it's easier for you to just insult me, so be it, but I think you should answer the question, too...

[Deleted]

I'm not reading that particular Ayn Rand book right now, perhaps I shall. You guys are all going to read Atlas Shrugged, correct? Or... of course you are not.
Whiners and leeches are whiners and leeches. You guys ARE going to read Atlas Shrugged, right?

[Deleted]

"So if a mother in the 8th month is having thoughts of suicide (or at least says she is), you would be okay with an abortion at that point? "

Ed... i already answered that... did you read it?

[Deleted]

You seem to have some reading comprehension problems... we have read Atlas Shrugged... (loop wins... she read it earlier than me )... We just don't ascribe to it... but at least we know the content and the 'philosophy' and its philosopher well enough to know that the architect of it, the author, BELIEVED in the freedom of women to choose legal abortion...

[Loopdilou]

Jan 22, 2011 17:11:24 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

I'm not reading that particular Ayn Rand book right now, perhaps I shall. You guys are all going to read Atlas Shrugged, correct? Or... of course you are not.
Whiners and leeches are whiners and leeches. You guys ARE going to read Atlas Shrugged, right?

And what point did you stop reading the thread?

Most of us have already read it (some of us, more than you have).

[formerexpat]

As of 2003 there were about 1,024 post-24 week abortions in the US. Not really all that much murder, actually

[/size]

Well, now I'm confused since your statistics contradict each other. I'd have to research the issue further but did find something that said in NYC, there are 770 abortions for every 1000 births and 47% of women that have had one abortion, have another.

Those are sad statistics and points more to being irresponsible instead of having an accident.

I found this - www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

1.5% of abortions post 21 weeks out of 1.2m = 18,000.

[ed1066]

Ed... i already answered that... did you read it?

Yes I did, you said you were okay with late term abortion if the mother's death was a possibility. So I guess a woman saying she is thinking of suicide constitutes a valid reason to kill her baby at 8 months, in your opinion. Her death IS a possibility if suicide is on her mind. Am I right?

[Loopdilou]

Jan 22, 2011 17:13:21 GMT -5 oped said:

You seem to have some reading comprehension problems... we have read Atlas Shrugged... (loop wins... she read it earlier than me )... We just don't ascribe to it... but at least we know the content and the 'philosophy' and its philosopher well enough to know that the architect of it, the author, BELIEVED in the freedom of women to choose legal abortion...

Damnit, Op! I really owe you like five exalts today

[chiver78]

Jan 22, 2011 16:59:16 GMT -5 oped said:

Here's a quote for you too..
"Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a 'right to life.' A piece of protoplasm has no rights -— and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable." Ayn Rand

absolutely

[Deleted]

are you aware that most abortions are performed on minority women?? HOW do you justify that and still maintain your "rights are racists!!!" stance?? HOW?


More minority women live in poverty as well. Does that mean you are racist because you don't support social programs that would help to raise them from poverty... you like them in poverty... don't you... admit it... you think its 'their place'...

[Loopdilou]

Jan 22, 2011 17:14:08 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

As of 2003 there were about 1,024 post-24 week abortions in the US. Not really all that much murder, actually

[/size]

Well, now I'm confused since your statistics contradict each other. I'd have to research the issue further but did find something that said in NYC, there are 770 abortions for every 1000 births and 47% of women that have had one abortion, have another.

Those are sad statistics and points more to being irresponsible instead of having an accident.

I found this - www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

1.5% of abortions post 21 weeks out of 1.2m = 18,000.

[/quote]

No, they don't contradict each other - there are two different statistics. 18,000 post 21 weeks... you asked about post 24 weeks, I thought? That's the 1024.

I totally agree that it's sad that women have more than one abortion. It's sad that women need to use it as birth control. I also advocate for readily available day after pills, free other birth control, and sex education starting in kindergarten. You'd probably see abortion plummet after that.

Sadly, I live in Umrrcka - we hate sex

[Deleted]

ed... here is what i said in 141:
I'd tend to say no ed. I guess if a person, i don't know, developed schizophrenia and needed medication you couldn't give a pregnant person and nothing was working, or someone had a serious suicide attempt, something like that... i mean if it has legitimate potential to end up in the death of the mother, then it should be considered.

and 143:
I'm guessing psych rationale in late term abortion doesn't come up often... in the fraction of abortions that ARE late term, i'm guessing only a very small percentage of THOSE would be phych related.

[Deleted]

47% of women that have had one abortion, have another


And guess what, a majority of mothers who have multiple abortions report having NO ACCESS to a primary care physician...

What always gets me about the 'right to life' set, is their willingness to make laws restricting individual freedom to legal abortion, but their unwillingess to contribute to programs that might actually have a CHANCE of stopping abortion (which is not the same as just making it illegal... it has always existed, it always will)... but people without access to primary care have more abortions... so why not give them access to primary care... oh no... can't do that... poor women have more abortions... so lets keep programs that help to reduce poverty... oh no.. can't do that...

[Loopdilou]

Jan 22, 2011 17:24:25 GMT -5 oped said:

47% of women that have had one abortion, have another


And guess what, a majority of mothers who have multiple abortions report having NO ACCESS to a primary care physician...

What always gets me about the 'right to life' set, is their willingness to make laws restricting individual freedom to legal abortion, but their unwillingess to contribute to programs that might actually have a CHANCE of stopping abortion (which is not the same as just making it illegal... it has always existed, it always will)... but people without access to primary care have more abortions... so why not give them access to primary care... oh no... can't do that... poor women have more abortions... so lets keep programs that help to reduce poverty... oh no.. can't do that...

LOL! Exactly. It doesn't even require all that much effort. Free condoms in high schools! Sex education that isn't all about abstinence but is more about PREVENTION OF STDS AND PREGNANCY! Yah, no.. too busy standing on the moral high ground.

Sex is bad, mmmkay?

[lakhota]

On this issue, liberals are notorious for not understanding the basic economics of such decisions.

I doubt "economics" is the driving force behind a mother faced with the decision to abort her deformed fetus and/or die during childbirth.