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Post by lakhota on Jan 21, 2011 21:16:29 GMT -5
On Roe v. Wade's Anniversary: Let's Reflect on the Consequences of Violent Rhetoric, Which Abortion Providers Know All Too WellWith the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court ruling that affirms women’s right to choose abortion, approaching tomorrow, National Abortion Federation President Vicki Saporta calls civil dialogue a national responsibility.Unfortunately, this discussion is not new to the abortion provider community. Since 1993, there have been eight murders and 17 attempted murders of physicians and clinic staff. Abortion opponents have a long history of using violent rhetoric to attempt to justify their crimes and incite others to violence. They regularly refer to abortion providers as “murderers” in interviews and articles and utilize imagery associated with murder such as “wanted” posters and “hit lists” in their campaigns to end legal abortion. Unfortunately, instead of marginalizing these extremists, other opponents of abortion have picked up on this dangerous rhetoric to advance their political agenda. The devastation this rhetoric can cause has been keenly experienced by the abortion provider community. In late 1992, Michael Griffin, who had no history in the anti-abortion movement, became involved with a local anti-abortion leader who took him under his wing and mentored him by showing him graphic anti-abortion videos and involving him in efforts to target a local clinic where Dr. David Gunn worked. Earlier that year abortion opponents had distributed western-style "wanted" posters featuring a picture of Dr. Gunn, his home phone number, and other identifying information. In 1993, Dr. Gunn became the first abortion provider to be murdered; shot to death by Griffin in Pensacola, Florida. Following the murder of Dr. Gunn, anti-abortion extremists publicly advanced the idea that the murder of abortion providers was “justifiable.” Paul Hill appeared in media outlets, including the nationally televised Donahue show, calling for the execution of abortion providers. In fact, he was so well-known for making such inflammatory statements that reporters often asked him, “If you believe so strongly in killing doctors, why don’t you do it yourself?” One year later, Hill acted on the violent words he had been preaching when he shot and killed Dr. John Bayard Britton and volunteer escort Lt. Col. James Barrett, and injured June Barrett, in the driveway of a Pensacola, Florida, abortion clinic. Hill’s ideas were carried forward by others including James Kopp, who unsuccessfully attempted to use a “justifiable homicide” defense during his trial for the 1998 murder of Dr. Barnett Slepian in Buffalo, New York. Scott Roeder, convicted last year for the murder of Dr. Tiller, also testified in court that his actions were justified and made repeated unsuccessful attempts to use a so-called “necessity defense.” Prior to murdering Dr. Tiller, Roeder had been in contact with others who advocated using violence against abortion providers, and was influenced by the media and what he watched on TV. He testified in court that he converted to Christianity as an adult after watching conservative programs like “The 700 Club.” Roeder stated that he believed Dr. Tiller was a murderer, a belief advanced by Bill O’Reilly, who repeatedly referred to Dr. Tiller on national TV as “Tiller the Killer.” Violent rhetoric can clearly influence individuals to retaliate against not only abortion providers, but also, like Tucson shooting suspect Jared Loughner, against government authority and government officials. Some, like Scott Roeder and Eric Rudolph, target both. Roeder was a member of the Montana Freeman Militia and Rudolph, who was convicted of murder resulting from a bomb he detonated in Olympic Park in Atlanta, also bombed two abortion clinics where one person died and another was seriously injured. More: www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/149632/on_roe_v._wade%27s_anniversary%3A_let%27s_reflect_on_the_consequences_of_violent_rhetoric%2C_which_abortion_providers_know_all_too_well/
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Post by sanityjones on Jan 21, 2011 21:39:47 GMT -5
I agree. Nothing should stand in the way of the violent murder of millions of innocents worldwide every year. Those who get all emotional over this issue obviously just don't get it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2011 21:45:53 GMT -5
I will reflect on my 5 beautiful children and 3 wonderful unplanned granddaughters that my family CHOSE to bring in to the world. Can't imagine my life without them. Tiller--- I was very sorry to hear some insane person killed him, but I am not sad at all that he is no longer aborting 7-9 month unborn BABIES. You guys reflect on whatever you want.
hhmmm-- is it really time to pull out my abortion links?? No, I'll pass.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jan 21, 2011 21:54:27 GMT -5
krickett, it was nice to have that choice, wasn't it? in some countries around the world, the choice to carry a pregnancy to term and have a child is restricted. isn't it nice to live in a country where you can choose how to handle your pregnancy?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2011 22:05:56 GMT -5
I don't plan on taking part in another abortion thread. You guys have fun. Be glad-- people always get upset when I start posting my pics of 7-9 month unborn BABIES ripped to shreds by abortionists, and I am not in the mood to get banned today.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 21, 2011 22:19:49 GMT -5
I'm insanely pro-choice, but even I think abortions at 7-9 months should be illegal except in cases where the mother's life is threatened, but at that point you can just have a c-section with a high probability that the child will survive and thrive.
Before 10-12 weeks though? Have a ball. If you don't know you're pregnant by 3 months, that's your problem (and the states, since chances are if you want an abortion after that you'll be a craptastic parent).
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Post by lakhota on Jan 21, 2011 22:43:15 GMT -5
Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. However, some opponents of this law seem to prefer Second Amendment remedies to get their way.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jan 21, 2011 23:50:41 GMT -5
Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. However, some opponents of this law seem to prefer Second Amendment remedies to get their way. So its bad to kill an adult that is killing defenseless babies - but it is OK by you to actually kill the defenseless babies?
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Post by lakhota on Jan 21, 2011 23:51:52 GMT -5
Are we a nation of laws - or not? Is a woman not in control of her own body?
CHOICE is the operative word.
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jan 21, 2011 23:53:01 GMT -5
Are we a nation of laws - or not? Sometimes I wonder
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jan 21, 2011 23:57:57 GMT -5
Is a woman not in control of her own body?
I am a woman and I have given the matter a lot of thought for numerous reasons - but at the end of the day, an abortion takes the life of an innocent - sometimes more brutally than other times
and yes as a women you do or should have control of your body - you mostly have the opportunity to not be in the position of having to make this decision
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 0:01:50 GMT -5
Do you believe anti-abortion extremists should advocate or use threats and violence to get their way?
Do you believe abortion clinics should be stalked and/or vandalized?
Do you believe abortion providers and staff should be harassed and targeted?
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jan 22, 2011 0:06:34 GMT -5
Do you believe anti-abortion extremists should advocate or use threats and violence to get their way? No - I actually don't believe in violence. Having said that - I have a hard time feeling sympathy for an abortionist, esp a late term abortionist. More like what goes around, comes around. Would I do it - no way Do I condone it - no way Do I have sympathy - no way
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 0:11:39 GMT -5
Really? I wonder how many women's lives Dr. George Tiller saved before he was murdered in church? You know, the guy Bill O'Reilly repeatedly referred to as "Tiller the Killer".
How much do you REALLY know about late-term abortions and the reasons for having them?
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jan 22, 2011 0:16:36 GMT -5
And when and why did adoption become a non-option for an unwanted pregnancy?
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jan 22, 2011 0:21:27 GMT -5
Really? I wonder how many women's lives Dr. George Tiller saved before he was murdered in church? You know, the guy Bill O'Reilly repeatedly referred to as "Tiller the Killer". How much do you REALLY know about late-term abortions and the reasons for having them? More than you think I know there is no reason for most late term abortions - the babies are basically delivered and then killed in the birth canal - if it was to save the mother the options would be a delivery and/or an emergency C section - and since Mom doesn't want the baby - the next step would be to release the baby for adoption I am old enough to have a number of friends that have adopted their children - most of whom had to go overseas
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 0:55:22 GMT -5
“Dr. George Tiller is a hero who saved women’s lives and championed human rights. Abortion is not murder. A fetus is part of a woman’s body until she gives birth. Republican religious bigots care nothing about the rights of the mother how can they claim to care about a fetus in the mother's body which can endanger the mother's life. One of the most common reasons for late-term abortion is because the fetus is posing a threat to the mother's life. Another reason for many late-term abortions is because the baby's life is threatened with either death or deformity. While republicans seek to deny abortions due to deformities in the fetus or even threats to a mother's life they care nothing about the expensive health care costs that will be incurred and would rather the baby or mother die after birth due to lack of health care than to support a reasonable health care system for everyone. If they care nothing about the health of the baby and the mother before birth how can they even dare to pretend they care about weather or not it is born? Republican religious bigots are no strangers to hypocrisy however. Republicans seek to make a woman's vagina a crime scene, effectively shoving man's laws up a woman's vagina. I call that legal rape! And this from Republican bigots like Sara Palin who make women pay for their own rape kits! Republicans are serial rapists of human rights across the board!” www.huffingtonpost.com/social/countthevote/the-murder-of-dr-tiller-a_b_209562_25213143.html How Dr. Tiller's Abortions Saved Lives - From HeartacheI have two friends who had to make the heartbreaking decision to fly to Kansas for a late term abortion. These were not women who were sloppy with birth control or didn't desperately want to have children. As with many of the women who visited Dr. George Tiller, they had found out after their amnio tests that the babies they were carrying would be horribly deformed. Amnios, which test for abnormal chromosomal problems, usually takes place between 14-16 weeks of a pregnancy and then it's usually another week before the diagnosis. www.huffingtonpost.com/jill-brooke/how-dr-tillers-abortions_b_209686.html
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 0:56:50 GMT -5
Dr. George Tiller was pro-lifeDr. George Tiller, who was murdered one year ago Monday, rescued countless women who would otherwise have died as a result of medical complications. He saved the lives of girls as young as 9 years old, who were victims of rape and incest, and whose child-sized organs would not have survived childbirth. He saved the lives of women who might otherwise have taken their lives, and in so doing, he saved the lives of babies, including mine. www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-05-28-cohen28_ST_N.htm
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 1:00:53 GMT -5
Abortion provider George Tiller murdered at churchDr. Tiller has been performing abortions since 1973, often for women carrying fetuses so badly damaged that, if carried to term, had no possibility of survival. Some were young adolescents who did not know they were pregnant or had been so ashamed they felt they could tell no one. He was one of a few doctors in the country that women in need of abortions after 20 weeks could go to when their lives and pregnancies were on the line. blog.choike.org/eng/news/488
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 1:06:56 GMT -5
Dr. Tiller’s Important JobThe 9-year-old girl had been raped by her father. She was 18 weeks pregnant. Carrying the baby to term, going through labor and delivery, would have ripped her small body apart. There was no doctor in her rural Southern town to provide her with an abortion. No area hospital would even consider taking her case. Susan Hill, the president of the National Women’s Health Foundation, which operates reproductive health clinics in areas where abortion services are scarce or nonexisistent, called Dr. George Tiller, the Wichita, Kan., ob-gyn who last Sunday was shot to death by an abortion foe in the entry foyer of his church. She begged. “I only asked him for a favor when it was a really desperate story, not a semi-desperate story,” she told me this week. Tiller was known to abortion providers — and opponents — as the “doctor of last resort” — the one who took the patients no one else would touch. “He took her for free,” she said. “He kept her three days. He checked her himself every few hours. She and her sister came back to me and said he couldn’t have been more wonderful. That’s just the way he was.” Other patients of Dr. Tiller’s shared their stories this week on a special “Kansas Stories” page hosted by the Web site “A Heartbreaking Choice.” One New York mother wrote of having been referred by an obstetrician to Tiller after learning, in her 27th week of pregnancy, that her soon-to-be son was “so very sick” that, once born, he’d have nothing more than “a brief life of respirators, dialysis, surgeries and pain.” In-state doctors refused to perform an abortion. More: opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/george-tiller/ Mothers tell their stories of heartbreaking choices requiring travel to Kansas. www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasstories.html
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 1:23:30 GMT -5
Patients Remember Dr. TillerThese are just a handful of stories, but they help to reveal the complexity of what Dr. Tiller did. The mainstream media has cast him as a “controversial late-term abortion provider,” which is technically accurate. But those late-term abortions he provided were for women in desperate and often tragic situations — women with health complications that made pregnancy dangerous, or women whose much-wanted pregnancies took a turn for the worst. Anti-choicers have latched onto the fact that Tiller’s clinic provided funeral services — if that’s the case, they point out, how is it not clear that Dr. Tiller was killing? In fact, those services were part of the healing process for many families who came to Dr. Tiller in one of the darkest moments of their lives, and who were making unthinkably difficult choices. It’s a tragedy that Dr. Tiller was one of only three physicians providing the late-term therapeutic abortion services that he did. It’s shameful that anti-choicers cast him as a “murderer” for helping women in need. I’ll say it again: The responsibility for George Tiller’s death surely falls on the shoulders of the person who actually pulled the trigger. But when pro-life groups did everything but give him a gun, their hands are hardly clean. Patients' Stories: www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/01/patients-remember-dr-tiller/
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 1:24:34 GMT -5
The George Tiller I Knew Like many in this community, my heart is heavy today. There have been many great diaries that talk about Dr. Tiller's years of service to women, and the threats he has endured throughout the last years of his life. My story is a bit more personal and I want to share it with all of you to give you more insight into the man. In 1975 my Mom noticed an indention in her left breast. She called and made an appointment with her OB/GYN, Dr. George Tiller. After his initial examination, he ordered a biopsy. While performing the biopsy he immediately knew that the lump was cancerous. Instead of just closing and scheduling surgery, he “grabbed a handful”, his words not mine. Her cancer Dr. credited this quick thinking by Dr. Tiller with saving her life, and due to this she didn’t even have to undergo chemotherapy. Several years later my Mother and I were driving by his clinic in Wichita. Mom started complaining of chest pains, so I drove into his parking lot and ran in to get help. Dr. Tiller was by Mom’s side immediately, and stabilized her, before the heart attack could cause severe damage. In 1980 I was pregnant with my first child. I had no insurance and couldn't afford a doctors appointment until I was approved for a medical card.. Mom told Dr. Tiller and he brought me into his office where he examined me, free of charge. I can credit him with the very first picture taken of my son. The last story I have to share is about my friends who could not have children. Dr. Tiller’s office worked with several attorneys in the Wichita area to provide adoption services for his patients who wanted this option. My friends have a 10 yr. old boy now, who is loved and adored. I’m not a great writer, so I apologize that this isn’t nearly as eloquent as some of the diaries on Daily Kos. I just wanted to get this story out to you, so you could hear how this man wasn’t just a tremendous fighter for women's rights. He was a brilliant physician, and a kind and compassionate human being. RIP Dr. Tiller and thank you for all you did for my friends and my family. www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/5/31/737320/-The-George-Tiller-I-Knew
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Post by traelin0 on Jan 22, 2011 1:29:27 GMT -5
45 million unborn, potential taxpayers dead, and a bankrupt Social Security system. Nothing else needs to be said, but I'm sure the Boomers will chime in with their typical hypocrisy about how the ones who survived should pay for them.
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 1:32:32 GMT -5
The Murder of Dr. George Tiller, A ForeshadowingDuring the entire Bush administration, from 2000-2008 there were no murders. During the Clinton era, between 1994-2000 there were six abortion providers and clinic staff murdered, and 17 attempted murders of abortion providers (one of these attempts was on Dr. Tiller who was shot in both arms.) There were 12 bombings or arsons during the Clinton years. During the Bush administration, not only were there no murders, there were no attempted murders. There was one clinic bombing during the Bush years. One can only conclude that like terrorist sleeper cells, these extremists have now been set in motion. Indeed the evidence is already there. The chatter, the threats, the hate-filled rhetoric are abundant. In the last year of the Bush administration there were 396 harassing calls to abortion clinics. In just the first four months of the Obama administration that number has jumped to 1401. History has another disturbing lesson for us. The escalation of anti-abortion rhetoric plays a direct role in instigating violence. When anti-abortion groups ratchet up the rhetoric, they know exactly what they're doing and the results it will have. Even if they maintain deniability, as Operation Rescue recently did saying, in effect, we wanted Tiller gone, but didn't want him murdered, they have inflamed the rhetoric. And suddenly people Like Dr. Tiller's murderer become inspired. On this issue, history is instructive. Eleanor Bader, author of Targets of Hatred: Anti-Abortion Terrorism, in an article in March for RH Reality Check about clinics bracing for an uptick in violence after the election of Obama wrote, "immediately after Obama's election, Douglas Johnson, Legislative Director of the National Right to Life Committee, called him a "hardcore pro-abortion president." The American Life League dubbed him "one of the most radical pro-abortion politicians ever," and Father Frank Pavone of Priests for Life warned that Obama will "force Americans to pay for the killing of innocents." Americans United for Life, the Family Research Council and Operation Save America quickly joined the chorus." More: www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/05/31/the-murder-dr-george-tiller-a-foreshadowing
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Post by traelin0 on Jan 22, 2011 1:36:04 GMT -5
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Post by lakhota on Jan 22, 2011 1:37:09 GMT -5
Wow, that's just too cold and uninformed to even respond to. You apparently think all aborted children and their mothers were healthy. Too bad that isn't the reality.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 22, 2011 1:40:27 GMT -5
What should happen in the United States is that abortions should be legal AND READILY AVAILABLE in the first 12 weeks. Late term abortions should be highly selective (oh wait, they are.. only 0.8% of the abortions performed in the US are late term) and reserved for the most emergency situations. The day after pill (for when there isn't even a fertilized egg yet, so why someone would call this baby killing is beyond me) should be OTC and accessible to minors. Condoms should be dispensed at all jr. high and high schools. And sex education should start in kindergarten.
Freaking prudish Americans. We like to cut off our noses to spite our faces.
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Post by traelin0 on Jan 22, 2011 1:44:03 GMT -5
Wow, that's just too cold and uninformed to even respond to. You apparently think all aborted children and their mothers were healthy. Too bad that isn't the reality. Fact: Tens of millions were aborted. Fact: Most of them would have been taxpayers. Fact: Social Security is a grossly unfunded liability. Fact: Most Boomers will fight the cuts to Social Security, and they comprise a generational cohort of approximately 70-75 million. Fact: Abortion is used as a form of birth control in the overwhelming majority of instances. Those are the facts. Paint it however you want, Boomers want to kill and not deal with the karmic response. I find it pleasurable that they will reap what they sow.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 22, 2011 1:47:42 GMT -5
Traelin - there's something really twisted about that mentality. "They're not babies, they're tax payers!!"
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Post by traelin0 on Jan 22, 2011 1:50:04 GMT -5
Traelin - there's something really twisted about that mentality.
"They're not babies, they're tax payers!!" Everything can be boiled down to economics. Remove the moral equation out of it and the facts are the facts. The Boomers did themselves in and I find it fascinating. Abortion as a prevalent means of birth control is a creation of the eugenists. That is also a fact.
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