Did you see this article about law school debt?

[Deleted]

Holy moly.

Is Law School a Losing Game?
By DAVID SEGAL
Published: January 8, 2011

IF there is ever a class in how to remain calm while trapped beneath $250,000 in loans, Michael Wallerstein ought to teach it.

Here he is, sitting one afternoon at a restaurant on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, a tall, sandy-haired, 27-year-old radiating a kind of surfer-dude serenity. His secret, if that’s the right word, is to pretty much ignore all the calls and letters that he receives every day from the dozen or so creditors now hounding him for cash.

“And I don’t open the e-mail alerts with my credit score,” he adds. “I can’t look at my credit score any more.”

Mr. Wallerstein, who can’t afford to pay down interest and thus watches the outstanding loan balance grow, is in roughly the same financial hell as people who bought more home than they could afford during the real estate boom. But creditors can’t foreclose on him because he didn’t spend the money on a house.

He spent it on a law degree. And from every angle, this now looks like a catastrophic investment.

Well, every angle except one: the view from law schools. To judge from data that law schools collect, and which is published in the closely parsed U.S. News and World Report annual rankings, the prospects of young doctors of jurisprudence are downright rosy.

In reality, and based on every other source of information, Mr. Wallerstein and a generation of J.D.’s face the grimmest job market in decades. Since 2008, some 15,000 attorney and legal-staff jobs at large firms have vanished, according to a Northwestern Law study. Associates have been laid off, partners nudged out the door and recruitment programs have been scaled back or eliminated.

And with corporations scrutinizing their legal expenses as never before, more entry-level legal work is now outsourced to contract temporary employees, both in the United States and in countries like India. It’s common to hear lawyers fret about the sort of tectonic shift that crushed the domestic steel industry decades ago.

But improbably enough, law schools have concluded that life for newly minted grads is getting sweeter, at least by one crucial measure. In 1997, when U.S. News first published a statistic called “graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation,” law schools reported an average employment rate of 84 percent. In the most recent U.S. News rankings, 93 percent of grads were working — nearly a 10-point jump.

In the Wonderland of these statistics, a remarkable number of law school grads are not just busy — they are raking it in. Many schools, even those that have failed to break into the U.S. News top 40, state that the median starting salary of graduates in the private sector is $160,000. That seems highly unlikely, given that Harvard and Yale, at the top of the pile, list the exact same figure.

How do law schools depict a feast amid so much famine?

“Enron-type accounting standards have become the norm,” says William Henderson of Indiana University, one of many exasperated law professors who are asking the American Bar Association to overhaul the way law schools assess themselves. “Every time I look at this data, I feel dirty.”

IT is an open secret, Professor Henderson and others say, that schools finesse survey information in dozens of ways. And the survey’s guidelines, which are established not by U.S. News but by the American Bar Association, in conjunction with an organization called the National Association for Law Placement, all but invite trimming.

A law grad, for instance, counts as “employed after nine months” even if he or she has a job that doesn’t require a law degree. Waiting tables at Applebee’s? You’re employed. Stocking aisles at Home Depot? You’re working, too.

Number-fudging games are endemic, professors and deans say, because the fortunes of law schools rise and fall on rankings, with reputations and huge sums of money hanging in the balance. You may think of law schools as training grounds for new lawyers, but that is just part of it.

They are also cash cows.

Tuition at even mediocre law schools can cost up to $43,000 a year. Those huge lecture-hall classes — remember “The Paper Chase”? — keep teaching costs down. There are no labs or expensive equipment to maintain. So much money flows into law schools that law professors are among the highest paid in academia, and law schools that are part of universities often subsidize the money-losing fields of higher education.

“If you’re a law school and you add 25 kids to your class, that’s a million dollars, and you don’t even have to hire another teacher,” says Allen Tanenbaum, a lawyer in Atlanta who led the American Bar Association’s commission on the impact of the economic crisis on the profession and legal needs. “That additional income goes straight to the bottom line.”

There were fewer complaints about fudging and subsidizing when legal jobs were plentiful. But student loans have always been the financial equivalent of chronic illnesses because there is no legal way to shake them. So the glut of diplomas, the dearth of jobs and those candy-coated employment statistics have now yielded a crop of furious young lawyers who say they mortgaged their future under false pretenses. You can sample their rage, and their admonitions, on what are known as law school scam blogs, with names like Shilling Me Softly, Subprime JD and Rose Colored Glasses.

The rest of the article is www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html

[haapai]

I saw it. After reading some of the law school threads you-know-where, I considered it pretty fluffy and lightweight. Much, much more pointed things can be said about law schools and legal education.

[thyme4change]

I think with law school, as with any other type of higher education, you need a plan. You need to think carefully about the realistic possibilities, and borrow accordingly. You need to start law school with an idea of the end-game, which is what type of law you want to practice. You can always adjust later. But, as long as you are working towards that goal, you start working your network the whole time you are in school. You need to talk to as many people as you can as early as you can. They can give you advice to make sure you are taking the right classes, meeting the right people etc.

Not that it is a perfect system - but someone is working as a lawyer. New grads are getting hired. So, you can either be one of the few that sticks to the plan and works it tirelessly, or you can be the one sitting around crying about how it wasn't suppose to be like this.

[zibazinski]

Paralegals are complaining they aren't getting hired because the firms can hire new lawyers for about the same bucks.

[Frugal Nurse]

Jan 21, 2011 19:15:52 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Paralegals are complaining they aren't getting hired because the firms can hire new lawyers for about the same bucks.

Law firms can also get law students to do this type of work as part of an "internship", which further drives the jobs away..

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

The starting salary here (central California) for Deputy District Attorneys is in the low 40s, I believe. And they're not hiring ~ they just laid off more than 2 dozen attorneys.

[Frappuccino]

I am currently entertaining the thought of going to law school. We have attorneys at my work, so I think I would want to stay with my current employer. My fear is what if I incurred the $80,000 (or more) for law school, and then fail the bar exam? How would I repay all of that money?? But, if I could pass that exam, I know I would be good at it - at least where I work currently. For those that took that LSAT, how do you do those logic games? I guess I will spend a year studying for that test before I make any hasty decisions.

[The J]

Jan 21, 2011 21:22:30 GMT -5 ❤ mollymouser ❤ said:

The starting salary here (central California) for Deputy District Attorneys is in the low 40s, I believe. And they're not hiring ~ they just laid off more than 2 dozen attorneys.

Manhattan DA's office starts at around $55k. In midtown. They're also the highest paying of the DA's offices in NYC.

[The J]

Jan 21, 2011 23:07:27 GMT -5 Frappuccino said:

I am currently entertaining the thought of going to law school. We have attorneys at my work, so I think I would want to stay with my current employer. My fear is what if I incurred the $80,000 (or more) for law school, and then fail the bar exam? How would I repay all of that money?? But, if I could pass that exam, I know I would be good at it - at least where I work currently. For those that took that LSAT, how do you do those logic games? I guess I will spend a year studying for that test before I make any hasty decisions.

If you fail the bar, you take it again. As far as the LSAT goes, get a study guide and/or take the course. I would probably recommend against going to law school in general, however.

[midjd]

I would also recommend against going to law school - at least for the next 4-5 years. The market will reach equilibrium again, but right now there are simply not enough jobs out there. People who graduated in 2008 and 2009 are fighting tooth and nail for $40K paralegal gigs and unpaid internships. I have a few friends who graduated in 2010 and haven't found anything yet. I feel very sorry for the people who entered law school before the fall of 2008, but for those who enrolled in 2009 and beyond - well, the writing was already on the wall.

The ONLY way I'd recommend law school right now is if you could go part-time and use earnings from a job to cover tuition/expenses. You still may not be able to find anything in the legal field for a few years, but at least you won't have student loans hanging over your head.

[jkscott]

Jan 21, 2011 23:07:27 GMT -5 Frappuccino said:

I am currently entertaining the thought of going to law school. We have attorneys at my work, so I think I would want to stay with my current employer. My fear is what if I incurred the $80,000 (or more) for law school, and then fail the bar exam? How would I repay all of that money?? But, if I could pass that exam, I know I would be good at it - at least where I work currently. For those that took that LSAT, how do you do those logic games? I guess I will spend a year studying for that test before I make any hasty decisions.

I did very well with the analytics. There are strategies you can use to rule out answers. PM me if you need help.

[jkscott]

Jan 23, 2011 0:42:54 GMT -5 midjd said:

I would also recommend against going to law school - at least for the next 4-5 years. The market will reach equilibrium again, but right now there are simply not enough jobs out there. People who graduated in 2008 and 2009 are fighting tooth and nail for $40K paralegal gigs and unpaid internships. I have a few friends who graduated in 2010 and haven't found anything yet. I feel very sorry for the people who entered law school before the fall of 2008, but for those who enrolled in 2009 and beyond - well, the writing was already on the wall.

The ONLY way I'd recommend law school right now is if you could go part-time and use earnings from a job to cover tuition/expenses. You still may not be able to find anything in the legal field for a few years, but at least you won't have student loans hanging over your head.

I dont think its possible to go to law school part time.

[The J]

Jan 23, 2011 11:02:56 GMT -5 jkscott said:

I dont think its possible to go to law school part time.

Yes it is.

[queenofcorona]

Too many equate lawyer with big bucks and make that their primary reason for choosing this profession. It's a lot of student loan debt in any economy, but horrific in the current one where many can't find employment. My brother is an atty and went into it with a pretty well laid out plan and it still wasn't easy. He knew his chosen path wasn't going to be a huge money maker compared to some of his classmates, but that wasn't his ultimate goal. BA was on scholarship, law school mostly on loans. His specialty is international law and early years brought a stint in the PC, then 4-5 years at a non-profit dealing with immigration cases. He switched to a fed position and has worked his way up to director of some section or other dealing with refugee and asylum cases at a US Embassy. Still doesn't rake in huge bucks but does well enough. He's 47 now and his SL's were recently paid off.
I think he still would have chosen this path under current economic/employment conditions but for him it was more a calling than a financial choice.

[midjd]

It is possible to go to law school part time with most state schools... my boss and one of my coworkers both did. It's a 4-year program instead of 3 and classes are mostly at night. Honestly, I kind of wish I'd gone this route! I went to a private school that didn't offer part-time enrollment.

Jan 23, 2011 16:08:52 GMT -5 queenofcorona said:

Too many equate lawyer with big bucks and make that their primary reason for choosing this profession.

ITA, I think the thought process for a lot of college juniors/seniors is something like, "Well, I want to make a lot of money... and I don't like math and science... hmm, I can go to law school." Not the best reason, but up until a couple of years ago it worked.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I think my sister's law school allowed students to go part time the first 20 credits or so. I know she took 4 years to get her degree and she was still working the first year and going to night school. But I think she mentioned once that she was required to go full time for the remainder.

I think she got out with about $80K in student loans. One of her professors apparently told all of his classes to think about student loan payments like we do a mortgage payment - set it up on auto-pay every month for the next 20 years and forget about it...

[stillontheroad]

My SIL is apparently planning on going to law school after college. I think she'll graduate with about $60k or so in undergrad debt alone (granted, it was to go to Yale, so not like she borrowed that much for a degree from a no-name school...but still, that's a ton of money).

I don't think she wants to go into law particularly to make a ton of money, but I'm sure she's expecting to make a comfortable salary. Frankly, I think she doesn't know what she's getting into.

[thyme4change]

Going to Yale helps. Even if you graduate last in your class, the doors are still fairly open to you.

My husband's judge says that every single judge in the country has come from 1 of 8 schools for undergrad. I know that isn't true, because I know a judge that went to my college, and I doubt he is nationally special. But, it gives you an indication that people who have the secret password stick together.