Carbon Renewables

[weltschmerz]

Beats the toxic nightmare of the Tar Sands, aka "The most destructive project on earth".

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2012 12:30:11 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jan 20, 2012 8:32:21 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

So you reduce carbon emissions into the atmosphere by using hydro electric dams instead of coal and oil, but you also reduce carbon removal from the atmosphere by flooding large areas of plant supporting dry land ? Where is the gain ?

Beats blowing off mountain tops, again and again and again.

I currently live within 10 miles of the 5th largest hydro-electric dam in the US. The reservoir area has over 1,000 miles of shoreline. You could fit quite a few of those open pit mines in there. The problem is when the mining is done it eventually grows back over with carbon eating plants, the reservoir stays and it produces very little intermittent electric output for the amount of forested land it destroyed by comparison. Your tar sands project would fit in there too.

[Don Perignon]

Weltz, I was talking to a conservative acquaintance of mine, who contends that extraction of petroleum from the oil sands is actually a "decontamination" operation. They're extracting the bulk of the pollution, they just haven't got the technology to remove ALL of the contaminants. "Nobody's perfect" said he.
Seriously, that's what he said.

[weltschmerz]

Seriously, that's what he said
-----------------
Lol! You can spin anything, if you try hard enough, I suppose.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2012 12:53:34 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

Weltz, I was talking to a conservative acquaintance of mine, who contends that extraction of petroleum from the oil sands is actually a "decontamination" operation. They're extracting the bulk of the pollution, they just haven't got the technology to remove ALL of the contaminants. "Nobody's perfect" said he.
Seriously, that's what he said.

Did you ever see a satellite photo of the extracted oil sand areas versus the untouched areas? Shown as one big picture?

[weltschmerz]

Yes, I have.
I have to get back to work. We can take this up later. Or not. I feel like I'm in the movie "Groundhog Day". Same arguments, again and again. It's about as pointless as trying to teach a goat to sing Ave Maria.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2012 13:06:01 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Yes, I have.
I have to get back to work. We can take this up later. Or not. I feel like I'm in the movie "Groundhog Day". Same arguments, again and again. It's about as pointless as trying to teach a goat to sing Ave Maria.

You should try to look at both sides once in a while. Then you won't have repeat yourself so much. (Or sing?)

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2012 12:56:35 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Seriously, that's what he said
-----------------
Lol! You can spin anything, if you try hard enough, I suppose.

So what you're saying here is that many square miles of oil saturated sand is OK in Canada but the few blops of oil spilled by BP in the gulf of Mexico is an ecological disaster? Why?

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2012 12:40:28 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Beats the toxic nightmare of the Tar Sands, aka "The most destructive project on earth".

What is being destroyed? Autotrophs feeding on the oil contained in the sand?

[weltschmerz]

Jma. You removed it, but I saw your question. "What's it like to work?"
Very fulfilling, thank you. I save lives. What do you do?

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Jan 20, 2012 15:32:40 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

Jan 20, 2012 15:21:45 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jma. You removed it, but I saw your question. "What's it like to work?"
Very fulfilling, thank you. I save lives. What do you do?

Well, let's not get into a contest over who's job is more important now. Frankly, if somebody goes to work at any job and takes a little pride in what they're doing, they're ok in my book. Either way, it's not really adding anything to the discussion at hand.

I do real work. My firm is in tax reporting. What we need is less do-gooders. You know the type, always sticking their noses into other peoples business.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2012 15:21:45 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jma. You removed it, but I saw your question. "What's it like to work?"
Very fulfilling, thank you. I save lives. What do you do?

Before I worked for myself I was into weapons design, electronics, missles, etc. I've been retired since I was 43, over 12 years now. I removed the sentence after rereading it because it seemed tactless and in bad taste. I don't fault anyone for doing what they do, and I felt bad about it. My DW works 2 days a week in hospital administration, her choice. I currently live in an extremely rural area with little face to face contact with other people.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Lol! You can spin anything, if you try hard enough, I suppose.

Exactly Weltz witch is why calling the Tar sands "The most destructive project on earth". Is nothing more than Ultra Liberal Spin.. Which is exactly what you seem to be good at.

You did not address..

Environmental issues in the Niger Delta
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_issues_in_the_Niger_Delta

The Department of Petroleum Resources estimated 1.89 million barrels of petroleum were spilled into the Niger Delta between 1976 and 1996 out of a total of 2.4 million barrels[2] spilled in 4,835 incidents.[3] (approximately 220 thousand cubic metres).

A UNDP report states that there have been a total of 6,817 oil spills between 1976 and 2001, which account for a loss of three million barrels of oil, of which more than 70% was not recovered.[4] Most of these spills occurred off-shore (69%), a quarter was in swamps and 6% spilled on land. In the early 2000's, it seemed more spills were due to sabotage than by accidents.

The Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation places the quantity of petroleum jettisoned into the environment yearly at 2,300 cubic metres with an average of 300 individual spills annually.[5] However, because this amount does not take into account "minor" spills, the World Bank argues that the true quantity of petroleum spilled into the environment could be as much as ten times the officially claimed amount.[6]

The largest individual spills include the blowout of a Texaco offshore station which in 1980 dumped an estimated 400,000 barrels (64,000 m3) of crude oil into the Gulf of Guinea and Royal Dutch Shell's Forcados Terminal tank failure which produced a spillage estimated at 580,000 barrels (92,000 m3).[7]

In 2010 Baird reported that between 9 million and 13 million barrels have been spilled in the Niger Delta since 1958.[8] One source even calculates that the total amount of petroleum in barrels spilled between 1960 and 1997 is upwards of 100 million barrels (16,000,000 m3).[6]

Plus you mention nothing about the fact that Saudi Arabia produces 3 times the carbon that Canada does.

Instead you post pics of the tar sands and an Ultra liberal headline...

Here is a head line. It can't be destructive long term if they are RECLAIMING the land. It's called disrupting the land.

Your pic, in the Future after Syncrude is done with it.



The process has begun....

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Why not here is some more things you haven't addressed yet.... Reclaimed land in the Tar sands area.



What are those brow things in the distance some might be asking... Well...

A herd of around 300 wood bison graze on land reclaimed from Syncrude mining operations.

Land Reclamation
www.syncrude.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5909

To date, over 4,500 hectares of land at our operations in northern Alberta is either reclaimed or prepared for re-vegetation activities. This includes 3,400 hectares of permanently reclaimed land and 1,000 hectares of land capped with soil. To date, we've planted over five million tree and shrub seedlings throughout our reclaimed areas.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Oh ya and one more thing ultra Libs. Try and prove that the way Socialist China is trying to expand, ISN'T, "The Most Destructive Project On Earth"..

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Oh ya, Hydo keeps you warm? You have an electric furnace? Moving parts have Greece. Oil

An apartment? Closed boiler system? glycol keeps the pipes from freezing, and NAt Gas runs the boilers that heat the water. All takes metal, which heavy equipment mine, that run on gas and tires, and have parts that need greece. Oil, Oil, Oil.

Hydro Dams, All having moving parts. Oil.. Have to be built with big trucks. Oil.

You did say you had heard all the arguments before, please enlighten me on where I am wrong Ultra Libs.

[bimetalaupt]

One of the interesting things I have seen was the open pit mine for copper that took a mountain and made a huge lake of copper water.. It is going to cause the super fund to spend over one billion dollars if the water level reaches the ground level.. but in the mean time it is drawing more and more purest "tree hugger" to see this "disaster".

yes ..B.Braunii will grow well in oil filled water.. Just remove the algae and cook it to reclaim the water.. add salt and you have "Orange Water"... and you have more and more lakes at the top of what was a mountain.. now you have algae that eats the CO2.. Now how many will want to see the "Orange Water" as it is under stress.....

by the way heavy oil sinks in pure water and only come to the top with you make it saturated brine!!.. IE salt out the oil!!!..

[rockon]

"You did say you had heard all the arguments before, please enlighten me on where I am wrong Ultra Libs."

I don't know much about the Tar Sands or the risks associated with getting the oil out but I do know it's very difficult to have objective debate with most liberals on any subject. They seem to just throw out one line personal attack bombs rather then realize that even people who disagree with there parties ideology may still have some other perspectives and that listening and having discussions could actually ultimately help them achieve more of their goals. Obama for instance could have achieved many of his goals if he only would have feigned some cooperation with the Republicans instead of constantly vilifying and blaming them for everything. The pictures from China make me cringe because many of the same people who are so worried about our environment are just fine with shipping our manufacturing jobs over there where there are almost no controls on the environmental damage. The last time I checked the environment is one thing that is truly global.

[Deleted]

"Beats the toxic nightmare of the Tar Sands, aka "The most destructive project on earth"."

When you take an honest look at how the oil companies leave the land after they're done with it, I might consider taking you seriously. As others have pointed out, they clean up the mess they make.

[Deleted]

"Do they also "clean up" in places like Nigeria?"

Not really sure. Nigeria is a sad state of affairs, although I think that the gov't and terrorists are mostly to blame. I live next door to a guy who works in Nigeria. I may ask him. Of course, he probably won't be home for 6 months....

[kadee79]

I would be interested to learn what kind of damage this reclamation has done to the natural soil structure? Anyone have any sources for that?
How much chemical application has to be done to provide enough nutrients for plants to grow again? What is the rate of natural uptake of minerals from those soils by plants after reclamation?

See, continued applications of chemicals whether they be fertilizers, pesticides or herbicides just gives us more pollution in the soil, the water & in the air. It also diminishes the length of time the soils can grow anything productive.
So I would be interested in finding a source for this kind of information.

[weltschmerz]

What are those brow things in the distance some might be asking... Well...
---------------------
Awww! Look at the pretty buffalo...everything is just peachy, then.


'Staggering challenges'

Satellite images readily illustrate the magnitude of boreal forest impacts from tar sands mining operations. The United Nations Environment Program has identified Alberta's tar sands mines as one of 100 key global "hotspots" of environmental degradation. According to Environment Canada, development of the tar sands presents "staggering challenges for forest conservation and reclamation."

Very little of the area directly affected by mining operations has been reclaimed, and after 40 years of mining, not a single operation has received a reclamation certificate from the government of Alberta. Suncor Energy's operation, the longest-operating tar sands mine, says it has reclaimed 858 hectares of land since starting operations in 1967, less than nine per cent of the land its operations have disturbed to date. Syncrude Canada, the largest daily producer of tar sands, says its operations have disturbed 18,653 hectares since 1978, with just 4,055 hectares of land reclaimed. None of this reclaimed land has been certified as such. At best, reclamation of the tar sands region will be a large-scale experiment that is unlikely to restore a self-sustaining boreal forest ecosystem within the next century.

thetyee.ca/Views/2007/09/20/TarSands/

Problems with land ‘reclamation’
As of 2009, 686 km2 of land had been lost to surface mining (up from
470 km2 in 2007). Both industry and government claim these lands can
be returned to natural landscapes through ‘reclamation’. After 50 years of
operations, only 0.16% of land has been certified as reclaimed. Moreover, the
Alberta government does not have sufficient funds to reclaim lands. In 2010,
the treasury held approximately $12,000/hectare for reclamation, though the
anticipated cost is $220,000 to $320,000/hectare.
www.ienearth.org/docs/NTSN_Brief-RBS_11.pdf

[Don Perignon]

But... but... but...they had a pikcha of buffalo!

Abuffalo!
(Actually, it was bison )

Amazing, how people are so easily "buffaloed"!

[Deleted]

"I would be interested to learn what kind of damage this reclamation has done to the natural soil structure?"

They re-use the natural soil. They scoop up the individual layers in one spot and use them in another spot that is being reclaimed. They do have to fertilize once because all the plant-life has been removed and it needs a jump start. They also plant millions of trees/plants, and even design the landscape to be in harmony with the surrounding areas (ex: water drainage, etc.)

[Deleted]

"Very little of the area directly affected by mining operations has been reclaimed...."

Well duh, this is a growing operation. So new mines are popping up faster than old ones are depleted. The opposite happens at the end of the mining life cycle.
-------------------------------------------
"and after 40 years of mining, not a single operation has received a reclamation certificate from the government of Alberta."

First, this statement is false (and ironically contradicted by your second link). Second, getting the certificate takes many, many years since they have to prove the land is acceptably reclaimed. After all, I'm sure you realize it takes a long time for a forest to grow.

www.oilsands.alberta.ca/reclamation.html

One item of note on this website aside from the reclamation info is the point about how 80% of the oil sands are "mined" without disturbing the land. Of the remaining 20%, only a small fraction has actually been disturbed.

[bimetalaupt]

Jan 21, 2012 15:19:29 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

"Very little of the area directly affected by mining operations has been reclaimed...."

Well duh, this is a growing operation. So new mines are popping up faster than old ones are depleted. The opposite happens at the end of the mining life cycle.
-------------------------------------------
"and after 40 years of mining, not a single operation has received a reclamation certificate from the government of Alberta."

First, this statement is false (and ironically contradicted by your second link). Second, getting the certificate takes many, many years since they have to prove the land is acceptably reclaimed. After all, I'm sure you realize it takes a long time for a forest to grow.

www.oilsands.alberta.ca/reclamation.html

One item of note on this website aside from the reclamation info is the point about how 80% of the oil sands are "mined" without disturbing the land. Of the remaining 20%, only a small fraction has actually been disturbed.

Much of the damage is underground and you can not see it.. Like the Air Force base in Lubbock,TX.. The oil distillates used to clean the airplanes is now in the Underground water and they have to pipe water to the homes that have water wells. Or salt contamination from uncaped wells from the 1920's in Anson,TX.. The wells are useless and water full of salt and oil.

Just a thought from the Oil Patch,
Bruce

[Deleted]

The examples you cite are from a long time ago, and one has nothing to do with oil production. If they work going on today in Alberta were instead done 50yrs ago, there probably would be serious leftover damage. Also, citing examples where the ground is contaminated with oil is not relevant. This is ground that is naturally "contaminated" already, and the forests above have thrived. Since they are removing the "contaminants", they leave ground below with fewer contaminants.

[tyfighter3]

Have you ever seen the Show that is What Happens when there is No People left on this planet. In a very short time this planet would reclaim everything we have left behind and wouldn't even know we where hear. The BP spill, where is the oil now? GONE

[bimetalaupt]

Jan 21, 2012 17:01:00 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

The examples you cite are from a long time ago, and one has nothing to do with oil production. If they work going on today in Alberta were instead done 50yrs ago, there probably would be serious leftover damage. Also, citing examples where the ground is contaminated with oil is not relevant. This is ground that is naturally "contaminated" already, and the forests above have thrived. Since they are removing the "contaminants", they leave ground below with fewer contaminants.

BOB,
MORE INTO ON ANSON.. THE WELLS WOULD HAVE BEEN RE-FRACKED IF THEY HAD BEEN CORRECTLY PLUGGED.WHERE THEY STILL HAVE OVER A BILLION BARRELS OF OIL IN THAT FIELD AND THE ONE BELOW IT..THEY ARE OLD "KING SAND" FORMATION THAT WERE BROKEN.. THE FORMATION BELOW IS LIKE EAGLE FORD AND COULD HAVE INTERESTING FINDINGS..PER A FRIEND OF MINE WHO HAS WORKED THE EAGLE FORD. they have to buy the clean up before they will be allowed to drill or frack into the formation.

You have been talking about heavy surface oil formation.. If it was a mile deep the heat from the center of the earth would make the oil less dense and flow like the Eagle Ford oil with its own internal pressure.

Just a thought,
Bruce

[Deleted]

I'm no expert on geological formations, so I'll have to take your word for it. It's amazing the range of types of oil, from the Eagle Ford that has the density and viscosity of gasoline, all the way up to a few types of oil that are even heavier than water and not a liquid at room temperature. I'm sure it would be a fascinating subject to learn more about....

Not that I have the slightest desire to think much about oil outside of work. Oh wait....