djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2012 12:48:46 GMT -5
agreed. but nobody was suggesting socializing medicine, only the funding mechanism for it, which is actually a relatively modest thing to do. insurance is not effective if it is not collectivized. the larger the pool, the cheaper it gets. it is common sense and good capitalism to "socialize" it, imo. it maximizes purchasing power, and brings cost benefits from doing so. In private business circles, I agree with you...but this is government we're talking about here. NOTHING government does brings any type of cost benefits. the cost of running the VA is about half what a typical HMO is. it runs about 9% overhead -vs- 18%. that would seem to break the "NOTHING" rule. there are other examples, of course. this is just the first one i could think of. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2012 12:49:49 GMT -5
What you are calling "Obamacare" is a plan that is to the right of a plan that the GOP proposed during the Nixon administration. it could also be called GingrichCare, or RomneyCare, since it is eerily similar to those proposals, as well. |
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 10, 2012 13:31:33 GMT -5
No, I meant Obamacare was drawn up entirely by democrats/liberals. It is not a middle of the road plan. Mostly it was drawn up by the insurance companies. It is a very middle of the road to right plan. It sure as hell isn't a liberal plan. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2012 13:40:31 GMT -5
No, I meant Obamacare was drawn up entirely by democrats/liberals. It is not a middle of the road plan. Mostly it was drawn up by the insurance companies. It is a very middle of the road to right plan. It sure as hell isn't a liberal plan. no, it wasn't. it only looks liberal to a conservative. even if 100% of the original plan was implemented, it would be the most right wing universal healthcare plan of any industrialized nation. |
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Post by jkapp on Feb 10, 2012 14:04:35 GMT -5
Mostly it was drawn up by the insurance companies. It is a very middle of the road to right plan. It sure as hell isn't a liberal plan. no, it wasn't. it only looks liberal to a conservative. even if 100% of the original plan was implemented, it would be the most right wing universal healthcare plan of any industrialized nation. Forcing people to pay for a product, while also using tax monies from those same people to pay for the product to give away free to others that are considered in "poverty," sounds pretty liberal to me... |
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 10, 2012 14:13:23 GMT -5
Ann Coulter on Romneycare---<<<" "If only the Democrats had decided to socialize the food industry or housing, Romneycare would probably still be viewed as a massive triumph for conservative free-market principles — as it was at the time. It’s not as if we had a beautifully functioning free market in health care until Gov. Mitt Romney came along and wrecked it by requiring that Massachusetts residents purchase their own health insurance. In 2007, when Romneycare became law, the federal government alone was already picking up the tab for 45.4 percent of all health care expenditures in the country. Until Obamacare, mandatory private health insurance was considered the free-market alternative to the Democrats’ piecemeal socialization of the entire medical industry. In November 2004, for example, libertarian Ronald Bailey praised mandated private health insurance in Reason magazine, saying that it “could preserve and extend the advantages of a free market with a minimal amount of coercion.” A leading conservative think tank, The Heritage Foundation, helped design Romneycare, and its health care analyst, Bob Moffit, flew to Boston for the bill signing. Romneycare was also supported by Regina Herzlinger, Harvard Business School professor and health policy analyst for the conservative Manhattan Institute. Herzlinger praised Romneycare for making consumers, not business or government, the primary purchasers of health care. The bill passed by 154-2 in the Massachusetts House and unanimously, 37-0, in the Massachusetts Senate — including the vote of Sen. Scott Brown, who won Teddy Kennedy’s seat in the U.S. Senate in January 2010 by pledging to be the “41st vote against Obamacare.” Read more: dailycaller.com/2012/02/01/three-cheers-for-romneycare/#ixzz1m0Y1rx00 |
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 10, 2012 14:15:03 GMT -5
Forcing people to pay for a product, while also using tax monies from those same people to pay for the product to give away free to others that are considered in "poverty," sounds pretty liberal to me... Blame the conservatives for that one- it was their idea. |
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 10, 2012 14:21:42 GMT -5
no, it wasn't. it only looks liberal to a conservative. even if 100% of the original plan was implemented, it would be the most right wing universal healthcare plan of any industrialized nation. Forcing people to pay for a product, while also using tax monies from those same people to pay for the product to give away free to others that are considered in "poverty," sounds pretty liberal to me... The only people that get it for free are those that qualify for medicaid & that exists today - so you can't blame Obama for that. Yes free medical care for the poorest people is a liberal policy, but IMO a necessary one. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2012 14:30:53 GMT -5
no, it wasn't. it only looks liberal to a conservative. even if 100% of the original plan was implemented, it would be the most right wing universal healthcare plan of any industrialized nation. Forcing people to pay for a product, while also using tax monies from those same people to pay for the product to give away free to others that are considered in "poverty," sounds pretty liberal to me... then your meaning of liberal is different than mine. |
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 10, 2012 14:38:36 GMT -5
The UK or French model is far left liberal, Canada's is middle of the road, obamacare leans to the right, and is Somalia's is far right conservative.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Feb 10, 2012 16:09:58 GMT -5
Forcing people to pay for a product, while also using tax monies from those same people to pay for the product to give away free to others that are considered in "poverty," sounds pretty liberal to me... The only people that get it for free are those that qualify for medicaid & that exists today - so you can't blame Obama for that. Yes free medical care for the poorest people is a liberal policy, but IMO a necessary one. Which is hypocrisy...everyone should have skin in the game! Oh, except for this group of people because they're "special." I still haven't figured out how liberals think people will make an effort in life to if they just get handed everything for free....it hasn't really worked yet, but I guess they'll just keep doing it over and over, giving more and more, hoping for a different outcome. And then we end up like Greece...yay!  |
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Feb 10, 2012 16:23:51 GMT -5
I still haven't figured out how liberals think people will make an effort in life to if they just get handed everything for free....it hasn't really worked yet, but I guess they'll just keep doing it over and over, giving more and more, hoping for a different outcome. And then we end up like Greece...yay! Maybe because most people have no desire to live in a shack in murderville just scraping by- perhaps you can explain why conservatives think poor people chose that lifestyle or still believe in the welfare queen bullshit? Why are you making an effort? Go ahead and quit work, give up your possessions and get onboard the poverty train and live it up- your life of free government treats in the lap of luxury awaits. |
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 10, 2012 16:29:27 GMT -5
The only people that get it for free are those that qualify for medicaid & that exists today - so you can't blame Obama for that. Yes free medical care for the poorest people is a liberal policy, but IMO a necessary one. Which is hypocrisy...everyone should have skin in the game! Oh, except for this group of people because they're "special." I still haven't figured out how liberals think people will make an effort in life to if they just get handed everything for free....it hasn't really worked yet, but I guess they'll just keep doing it over and over, giving more and more, hoping for a different outcome. And then we end up like Greece...yay! They aren't "special", they are broke & can't afford to have skin in the game. Most people will make an effort as long as they can have a higher quality of life working than what is just handed to them for free. You might argue that our welfare system provides too much of an incentive to be broke, but it can't be that much of an incentive or we would all just be living off welfare. I have seen the welfare lifestyle & don't prefer it to what I have working & most people seem to agree with me. |
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Post by jkapp on Feb 10, 2012 16:31:44 GMT -5
I still haven't figured out how liberals think people will make an effort in life to if they just get handed everything for free....it hasn't really worked yet, but I guess they'll just keep doing it over and over, giving more and more, hoping for a different outcome. And then we end up like Greece...yay! Maybe because most people have no desire to live in a shack in murderville just scraping by- perhaps you can explain why conservatives think poor people chose that lifestyle or still believe in the welfare queen bullshit? Why are you making an effort? Go ahead and quit work, give up your possessions and get onboard the poverty train and live it up- your life of free government treats in the lap of luxury awaits. Conservatives probably believe that becasue they have anecdotal evidence of it. Wht do liberals believe everyone on welfare is only there because of someone else's fault? Why do they believe there are no shysters out there whose sole purpose in life is looking for a free ride? |
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 10, 2012 16:54:36 GMT -5
I still haven't figured out how liberals think people will make an effort in life to if they just get handed everything for free....it hasn't really worked yet, but I guess they'll just keep doing it over and over, giving more and more, hoping for a different outcome. And then we end up like Greece...yay! Maybe because most people have no desire to live in a shack in murderville just scraping by- perhaps you can explain why conservatives think poor people chose that lifestyle or still believe in the welfare queen bullshit? Why are you making an effort? Go ahead and quit work, give up your possessions and get onboard the poverty train and live it up- your life of free government treats in the lap of luxury awaits.  LOL Why are you making an effort if you can just get everything handed to you? |
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 10, 2012 16:57:30 GMT -5
Maybe because most people have no desire to live in a shack in murderville just scraping by- perhaps you can explain why conservatives think poor people chose that lifestyle or still believe in the welfare queen bullshit? Why are you making an effort? Go ahead and quit work, give up your possessions and get onboard the poverty train and live it up- your life of free government treats in the lap of luxury awaits. Conservatives probably believe that becasue they have anecdotal evidence of it. Wht do liberals believe everyone on welfare is only there because of someone else's fault? Why do they believe there are no shysters out there whose sole purpose in life is looking for a free ride? I don't think most liberals believe that at all. I know their are shysters out there & the more we can modify the welfare program to weed those people out the better. And many others end up on welfare because of their own bad decisions, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't get a helping hand until they can get back on their feet. Why do conservatives believe almost everyone on welfare is some sort of scammer looking for a free ride? Anectodal evidence doesn't count for much. |
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usaone
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Post by usaone on Feb 10, 2012 19:16:07 GMT -5
Fox News Poll Feb 9th....
Obama 51 Santorum 38
Obama 50 Romney 43
Obama 50 Newt 38
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2012 20:26:44 GMT -5
Fox News Poll Feb 9th.... Obama 51 Santorum 38 Obama 50 Romney 43 Obama 50 Newt 38 Romney's numbers and Paul's numbers have slipped 3% in the last two weeks. very strange. |
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 10, 2012 20:31:12 GMT -5
... Romney's numbers and Paul's numbers have slipped 3% in the last two weeks. very strange. 3% change in a poll - what is margin of error? Maybe they haven't actually slipped at all. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 10, 2012 20:33:28 GMT -5
... Romney's numbers and Paul's numbers have slipped 3% in the last two weeks. very strange. 3% change in a poll - what is margin of error? Maybe they haven't actually slipped at all. could be. but what i am trying to say is that Romney is no longer in a statistical tie with Obama. that is, i think, significant. |
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dumdeedoe
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Post by dumdeedoe on Feb 10, 2012 21:47:24 GMT -5
Karma for that...
finally some one sees through the smoke and mirrors.......
He isn't raising taxes to pay for the plan, he is only using federal power to make sure that companies and individuals have to have insurance... Not (like most other country's) have it payed for by the government(tax money).........
The Republicans hate it because it puts more burden on businesses, the people should hate it because it doesn't matter if you can't afford health care you will have to get it or be fined...
So it gives a free pass for insurance companies to raise rates because of forced participation
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dumdeedoe
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Post by dumdeedoe on Feb 10, 2012 22:12:32 GMT -5
Obama is one of the craftiest policy makers I have seen. He has effectively controlled the unions to get manufacturing back in this country. And did it in such a fashion that both sides didn't see it.
Most Union busters have always attacked the older union members to get the unions to concede high labor costs through early retirement and loss of pensions. The reason this never works is that the strength of the unions is in the Senior members,they set policy and have more pull...
Obama went after the youth and got unions to force a pension cap and lower wages on all new hires... So after large layoffs in GM and Chrysler, now the new hires will be at a affordable rate and unions become more competitive... Brilliant peace of policy work IMO...
Now with his health care bill, the money still comes out of your check every week but instead of having the ability to opt out of coverage you will be forced by law to participate....
whether the money says Fed tax or health ins when it comes out of your check is inconsequential.....
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 11, 2012 11:37:15 GMT -5
ObamaCare is liberal. I don't care which party label advances it. It doesn't become a 'conservative' idea simply because some Republicans support it. Those Republicans that support such plans are liberal Republicans.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2012 13:40:47 GMT -5
ObamaCare is liberal. I don't care which party label advances it. It doesn't become a 'conservative' idea simply because some Republicans support it. Those Republicans that support such plans are liberal Republicans. ObamaCare is moderate. I don't care which party label advances it. It doesn't become a 'conservative' idea simply because some Republicans support it. Those Republicans that support such plans are moderate Republicans. a liberal proposal would be to extend medicare to all US citizens through a tax. ObamaCare is not even close. |
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