Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,615
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jan 30, 2012 10:48:35 GMT -5
Right or wrong? Arizona candidate appeals English ability court decisionPHOENIX (Reuters) - A woman barred from seeking elected office in an Arizona border town by a judge who ruled she did not have a sufficient grasp of English has decided to fight the controversial ruling, and filed an appeal on Friday, her lawyer said. A Yuma County judge disqualified Alejandrina Cabrera, a U.S. citizen born in Yuma, from running for a seat on the city council in the town of San Luis this week for what he called a "large gap" between her English proficiency and that required to serve on the council. "It was clear to the court that she was stymied by many questions, did not understand many questions, failed to comprehend what was being asked, and guessed at answers," the court ruling said. The judge, in a move that sparked a debate over language in often bilingual U.S.-Mexican border communities, said Cabrera's English was not of the level needed to carry out the professional duties required of a representative of the public. A notice of appeal was filed with the court late on Friday afternoon, according to Brandon Kinsey, one of Cabrera's attorneys. Kinsey said the vast majority of his own conversations with Cabrera have been conducted in English and that she meets the baseline requirement for reading, writing, and speaking in the language. "Whether or not she is the best candidate is a decision left up to the voters," he said. "It should not be left up to a judge." More: www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-arizona-languagetre80r06f-20120127,0,5805110.story
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,443
|
Post by thyme4change on Jan 30, 2012 11:10:02 GMT -5
Oh boy - here we go again. I'm not familiar with the town of San Luis, but this is definitely an issue in Arizona. Who needs to speak English, and when? I'm wondering if she was raised her whole life in a border town and still doesn't speak enough English to be considered proficient. Granted, that isn't a problem in the bigger towns - but I could see how that would happen in border towns.
Does the city council hold their meetings in Spanish? Is that appropriate?
There is nothing wrong with the Spanish language or Spanish speaking people. (Actually, as a language I'm told it makes more sense than i before e English, although the whole female/male thing to inanimate objects seems just as confusing.) But, it begs the question, can we be a great country if our citizens cannot communicate with each other? And now the even more important question - now that we have the technology at our fingertips to translate anything at any time, does it matter quite so much?
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,443
|
Post by thyme4change on Jan 30, 2012 11:17:56 GMT -5
One thing I'm glad for with the story is that the action was filed by another Hispanic. At least it isn't the white man trying to keep her down. Although, who knows - half the Rodriquezes I know seem pretty darn "white."
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,615
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jan 30, 2012 11:19:00 GMT -5
Her attorney states " Both English and Spanish are spoken during city council meetings in San Luis." San Luis, Az. Demographics: Hispanic - 22,209 (94.2%) White alone - 873 (3.7%) Black alone - 353 (1.5%) American alone - 109 (0.5%) Two or more races - 20 (0.08%) Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone - 9 (0.04%) www.city-data.com/city/San-Luis-Arizona.html
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 9:20:53 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 13:38:49 GMT -5
Wow, 94% Hispanic? I hope he bars any candidates that don't speak Spanish too. But I think you should be really fluent in English.
Reminds me of when Oakland schools tried to make Ebonics a primary language.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Jan 30, 2012 14:00:14 GMT -5
Sounds to me like the current mayor was nervous about losing his job to this woman . . . ah politics.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jan 30, 2012 14:24:01 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with the Spanish language or Spanish speaking people. (Actually, as a language I'm told it makes more sense than i before e English, although the whole female/male thing to inanimate objects seems just as confusing.) --------------------- Spanish is a piece of cake. Russian has THREE genders. Male, female and gender-neutral. It's still easier than English, though.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,515
|
Post by billisonboard on Jan 30, 2012 14:42:47 GMT -5
Too much room for political hi-jinks for judges to be allowed to keep people off the ballot. Let the voters decide.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 13:34:42 GMT -5
Well according to Newt Spanish is the language of the ghetto so keeping her off of the ballot would be right up his alley.
|
|
cme1201
Junior Associate
Tennis Elbow, Jock Itch, and Athletes Foot, every man has a sports life!
Joined: Apr 6, 2011 13:55:07 GMT -5
Posts: 5,503
|
Post by cme1201 on Feb 1, 2012 13:46:39 GMT -5
Well according to Newt Spanish is the language of the ghetto so keeping her off of the ballot would be right up his alley. A comment taken out of context in 2007 can't you do better than that?
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 13:57:54 GMT -5
Well according to Newt Spanish is the language of the ghetto so keeping her off of the ballot would be right up his alley. A comment taken out of context in 2007 can't you do better than that? www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/jan/25/mitt-romney/spanish-language-ad-says-newt-gingrich-said-spanis/Out of context? It is quite obvious what he said. "Nobody in the elite world understands this, this is an enormous center-right country," Gingrich said. "This was driven home for me a couple weeks ago when I was doing a press release for English First. They gave me some data. Eighty-five percent of the American people believe English should be the official language of government." After breaking for applause, Gingrich continued, "Now that's according to a Rasmussen poll. Zogby came back and said that's too high -- the number's 84. Gingrich then pivoted to the founding of the colony of Jamestown, "when people who believed their rights came from God first stepped foot on this continent." They had a "very simple model," he said: "We should replace bilingual education with immersion in English so people learn the common language of the country and so they learn the language of prosperity, not the language of living in a ghetto," Gingrich said. "Second … we should establish that citizenship requires passing a test on American history in English. And if that's true, we do not have to print ballots in any language except English." There is your context. How else do you interpret that?
|
|
cme1201
Junior Associate
Tennis Elbow, Jock Itch, and Athletes Foot, every man has a sports life!
Joined: Apr 6, 2011 13:55:07 GMT -5
Posts: 5,503
|
Post by cme1201 on Feb 1, 2012 14:07:48 GMT -5
A comment taken out of context in 2007 can't you do better than that? www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/jan/25/mitt-romney/spanish-language-ad-says-newt-gingrich-said-spanis/Out of context? It is quite obvious what he said. "Nobody in the elite world understands this, this is an enormous center-right country," Gingrich said. "This was driven home for me a couple weeks ago when I was doing a press release for English First. They gave me some data. Eighty-five percent of the American people believe English should be the official language of government." After breaking for applause, Gingrich continued, "Now that's according to a Rasmussen poll. Zogby came back and said that's too high -- the number's 84. Gingrich then pivoted to the founding of the colony of Jamestown, "when people who believed their rights came from God first stepped foot on this continent." They had a "very simple model," he said: "We should replace bilingual education with immersion in English so people learn the common language of the country and so they learn the language of prosperity, not the language of living in a ghetto," Gingrich said. "Second … we should establish that citizenship requires passing a test on American history in English. And if that's true, we do not have to print ballots in any language except English." There is your context. How else do you interpret that? Where is it that he expressly states it is Spanish that he is referring to? It is not there. There are roughly 300 languages that are spoken in the US. If as he was saying we use bi-lingual education which of the 300 do you give time to? Spanish, Portuguese, Manchurian, or should we have the young intently immersed in the English Language so that we can all understand one another? From your own "story". It was taken to heart by one person that it was directed at those who speak Spanish because of the "tone". Now again You take a comment made in 2007 out of context.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 14:45:26 GMT -5
Oh riiight- he didn't specifically state Spanish- ok then. When you think of bilingual education in the USA what language do you think of? Mandarin?
Either way he was insulting any language other than English with his dickish comment. Why would you defend him on it?
|
|
cme1201
Junior Associate
Tennis Elbow, Jock Itch, and Athletes Foot, every man has a sports life!
Joined: Apr 6, 2011 13:55:07 GMT -5
Posts: 5,503
|
Post by cme1201 on Feb 1, 2012 14:51:33 GMT -5
Oh riiight- he didn't specifically state Spanish- ok then. When you think of bilingual education in the USA what language do you think of? Mandarin? Either way he was insulting any language other than English with his dickish comment. Why would you defend him on it? There are many reasons to dislike Newt many of them are true and factual, reasons like your above are petty and flat out lazy reasons for disliking him. The only reason I defend Newt is because false facts and BS deserve to be called out and made right. Just look at the Serving his wife divorce papers while on her deathbed, that ran (and is still running) even though that wife is alive well and requested the divorce. ETA: And as far as bi-lingual education I think of Farsi more than any other at the moment, we have a large and expanding Persian presence in our town.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 14:59:20 GMT -5
Like him if you want- he needs all the help he can get- but he can take that superiority bullshit and stick it- nothing petty about that kind of statement- but screw him- time for him to go back to selling his books- presidential material he is not.
It shows his true colors- he could have made his point any number of different ways, yet he chose to use 'language of the ghetto' . What a DICK!
|
|
cme1201
Junior Associate
Tennis Elbow, Jock Itch, and Athletes Foot, every man has a sports life!
Joined: Apr 6, 2011 13:55:07 GMT -5
Posts: 5,503
|
Post by cme1201 on Feb 1, 2012 15:03:01 GMT -5
Like him if you want- he needs all the help he can get- but he can take that superiority bullshit and stick it- nothing petty about that kind of statement- but screw him- time for him to go back to selling his books- presidential material he is not. It shows his true colors- he could have made his point any number of different ways, yet he chose to use 'language of the ghetto' . What a DICK! Thank you for allowing me to like him if I want, now that I have your blessing, I do not like Newt, as I said there are real reasons to dislike him, no need for this BS. You dislike anything Republican, I understand that. Just try and stick to real reasons for your dislike, real reasons not fantasy made up out of context fake reasons.
|
|
thyme4change
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 26, 2010 13:54:08 GMT -5
Posts: 40,443
|
Post by thyme4change on Feb 1, 2012 15:08:58 GMT -5
Well - only about 1/3rd of San Luis lives above the poverty line. The place isn't really luxurious.
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Feb 1, 2012 15:25:13 GMT -5
Like him if you want- he needs all the help he can get- but he can take that superiority bullshit and stick it- nothing petty about that kind of statement- but screw him- time for him to go back to selling his books- presidential material he is not. It shows his true colors- he could have made his point any number of different ways, yet he chose to use 'language of the ghetto' . What a DICK! Thank you for allowing me to like him if I want, now that I have your blessing, I do not like Newt, as I said there are real reasons to dislike him, no need for this BS. You dislike anything Republican, I understand that. Just try and stick to real reasons for your dislike, real reasons not fantasy made up out of context fake reasons.lmao... That's what I'm saying. No need to dramatize shit with Newt. He gives you plenty of real reasons not to like him. Pick a real reason and save yourself a little time...and perhaps a little dignity too.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 15:54:00 GMT -5
[quote author=cme1201 board=politics thread=19373 post=831371 time=1328126581You dislike anything Republican, I understand that. Just try and stick to real reasons for your dislike, real reasons not fantasy made up out of context fake reasons.[/quote]
Republican has nothing to do with being a dick- that part is optional. Listening to some of the crap he says and making a character judgment is a perfectly good reason for not liking the guy. His positions aren't any diffferent than other republicans- he is just an offensive person to me.
And I don't dislike everything 'Republican' either- unless you want to redefine Republican as referring to the far right loonies.
|
|
handyman2
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 23:56:33 GMT -5
Posts: 3,087
|
Post by handyman2 on Feb 1, 2012 16:37:35 GMT -5
Why don't some go to a spanish speaking country while speaking little or no spanish and try to run for political office and see what happens. Or France or Germany for that matter. etc
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 19:49:21 GMT -5
Why don't some go to a spanish speaking country while speaking little or no spanish and try to run for political office and see what happens. Or France or Germany for that matter. etc What does that have to do with anything? I don't recall a language requirement in our Constitution- and besides- one would think that considering the population there is 94% Hispanic it was a good thing she speaks both. More alarming is a judge deciding who can run for office based on their personal observations- maybe we should let judges decide people are to stupid to hold office next- can't hurt.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,794
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
Member is Online
|
Post by Opti on Feb 1, 2012 20:35:35 GMT -5
cme, about the wife requesting the divorce... Newt Gingrich filed a divorce complaint on July 14, 1980, in Carroll County, saying that "the marriage of the parties is irretriebably (sic) broken." Jackie Battley Gingrich, the congressman's wife and the mother of Jackie Gingrich Cushman, responded by asking the judge to reject her husband's filing. "Defendant shows that she has adequate and ample grounds for divorce, but that she does not desire one at this time," her petition said. I will post the link in a minute. Looks like Newt and daughter haven't been telling the truth per the court documents. Interesting reading. www.cnn.com/2011/12/26/politics/gingrich-divorce-file/index.html
|
|
formerexpat
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 12:09:05 GMT -5
Posts: 4,079
|
Post by formerexpat on Feb 1, 2012 22:05:44 GMT -5
Is this town in the US?
Then you should be proficient in the language of the land.
As for Newt's comments, there were plenty of ghetto's that spoke many different languages in the past. It's a reference to pockets of current, most prevalent immigrants and how we should immerse them into society - not exclude them (including language).
In the past, it was the Irish, the Italians and now the Hispanics. Next generation, it will be the Chinese and Mandarin will be the language we're talking about. Although, most the Chinese people I've met, made efforts to learn the language. This woman has lived in the US all her life and can't speak or comprehend well enough.
Yes, there should be a basic literacy test - who the hell knows what this person would agree to if they don't understand the language when a contract is written in English.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,515
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 1, 2012 22:11:32 GMT -5
... Yes, there should be a basic literacy test - who the hell knows what this person would agree to if they don't understand the language when a contract is written in English. So every person running for any elective office in the United States should pass a basic literacy test (written, administered, and scored by ) to be eligible?
|
|
formerexpat
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 12:09:05 GMT -5
Posts: 4,079
|
Post by formerexpat on Feb 1, 2012 22:16:25 GMT -5
12th grade English test online - automatically scored, little administration needed. You can go to the DMV (maybe??) since they have tests online already to administer for driving.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,515
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 1, 2012 22:27:48 GMT -5
12th grade English test online - automatically scored, little administration needed. You can go to the DMV (maybe??) since they have tests online already to administer for driving. Sounds really simple. A multiple choice on line test to qualify to run for elective office.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 1, 2012 22:33:12 GMT -5
There's no grounds for an appeal. This case was cut and dried. What most articles leave out is that the judge had no choice but to follow the law and Arizona law requires public office holders to know English. Period. She's claiming hearing problems and other excuses for not understanding questions and following the dialogue in court, but the simple fact of the matter is she was born and raised in Mexico City and really doesn't have sufficient command of the English Language. If they have a problem with it, they'll have to change the law.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 1, 2012 22:34:48 GMT -5
Why don't some go to a spanish speaking country while speaking little or no spanish and try to run for political office and see what happens. Or France or Germany for that matter. etc I've done business in Panama, Costa Rica, and Dominican Republic-- in all three, contracts WILL be in Espanol, or they're void.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,515
|
Post by billisonboard on Feb 1, 2012 22:54:30 GMT -5
...Arizona law requires public office holders to know English. Period. ... Does the law define exactly what it takes for an individual to "know English"? It appears that it was just the judge's determination of a "large gap". So a judge has the power, based on subjective judgement, to ban an individual from seeking elective office and not have that judgement reviewed by a higher court? Seems like an opportunity for some very activist judging.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,615
|
Post by Tennesseer on Feb 1, 2012 23:07:12 GMT -5
There's no grounds for an appeal. This case was cut and dried. What most articles leave out is that the judge had no choice but to follow the law and Arizona law requires public office holders to know English. Period. She's claiming hearing problems and other excuses for not understanding questions and following the dialogue in court, but the simple fact of the matter is she was born and raised in Mexico City and really doesn't have sufficient command of the English Language. If they have a problem with it, they'll have to change the law. Do you have a link stating she was born in Mexico City, Mexico? The article states she is a U.S. citizen born in Yuma, Arizona. Arizona is in the United States. And how about a link stating she claims to have hearing problems.
|
|