Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 12:25:09 GMT -5
"it's difficult, indeed, to discuss anything with someone who is unwilling to concede that they have a limited point of view..."
I'm just questioning how well you know the details of other people's circumstances? ... Do you see the cash assistance checks? I don't have a LIMITED view... its just that my experience is obviously different from yours... so why is my view limited and yours is not?
I have never said fraud/misuse does not exist, i just don't think its nearly as rampant as people like to make it out to be... i also think more people get assistance than you think... and so the 'struggling' are also getting assistance... which conflates the argument that there is a working poor getting 'nothing' while the welfare queens get everything... etc.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 19, 2011 12:31:37 GMT -5
You know how people that got down on their luck temporarily used to get by? Their families, friends, neighbors, churches helped them. It was TEMPORARY and even a bit shameful to be on the "dole" so people avoided it at all costs. I remember taking bags of groceries along with other people that did the same(as a kid with my mom)so that a famiy that lost their husband/father could eat until the insurance check came. Not welfare and guess what? The Mom didn't have any more kids out of wedlock as well just actually paid off her house and then got a job as a waitress and raised her kids just fine. There needs to be a total end of the welfare cycle and a limit put on it, period and no reprieve even if you have more babies. You might just have to get a job and support yourself, for a change.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 12:39:19 GMT -5
There IS a limit on cash assistance, even if you have more kids. And i agree with the idea about limits on other programs with more kids, but do you just NOT feed the new kids? ... i've said i like WIC better, but do you just say, hey, we don't feed the fourth kid... sucks to be you... ?... or do we take away the fourth kid? ... The thing is, those decisions DO set into motion precidence on infringing people's personal freedoms, which is fine as long as its THEM who are having their right infringed.. but zib... have you ever gotten an EITC? If so... does that mean that suddenly the state can limit how many kids you have? How about how you raise them? ... Its not as easy as just stop it all together... sorry, its just not...
And if ALL people were helped by family, friends, neighbors, churches... there woud be no social programs... they were to fill a NEED... do the current programs have areas which could be reformed, and made more efficient... yes... can you ever get rid of all inefficiency... probably not...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 12:47:43 GMT -5
What program did they use to help them buy a house? Do you mean the government bought them a house free and clear? I have not heard of a program like that in my area. Are they then released from real estate taxes as well? I would like to read about that program, if you have a link, thanks.
|
|
kdamron
Familiar Member
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 10:52:02 GMT -5
Posts: 566
|
Post by kdamron on Jan 19, 2011 12:52:53 GMT -5
I certainly don't hate people who are getting assistance. I too believe in a hand up. For all of the people who abuse it, there is one or two or 100 who use it as it was meant and it changes their lives. I have been blessed with a middle class upbringing and upper middleclass adult-hood (I guess you could call it), but there for the grace of God... Welcome to the boards and best of luck to you.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 13:00:26 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by sue on Jan 19, 2011 13:05:38 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 13:07:57 GMT -5
So... you really don't know how much they paid for the house... how much their mortgage is... or what type of program they are 'abusing'... i don't mean to pick on you, but that's what i find a lot... people like to talk about how everyone is abusine the system and getting everything for free... but they actually are just making assumptions, and passing judgement without any real facts... I'm telling you, if they got the house through HUD... it doesn't look like they paid under market value and got a free ride... it looks like they may have a guarenteed loan (in that if they can't make it, HUD pays off the mortgage and assumes ownership and flips it again...)... and might have had help in the process of obtaining a loan... which they STILL had to qualify for... those seem to be the programs that HUD provides.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 13:09:14 GMT -5
"Except... family, friends, neighbors and churches may decide not to help those who don't also help themselves."
Hey... i heard of a homeless shelter the other day that was turning away gays and lesbians...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 13:14:37 GMT -5
You know they got a 395K house and are paying 800$ a month? ...
|
|
jkapp
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 12:05:08 GMT -5
Posts: 5,416
|
Post by jkapp on Jan 19, 2011 13:20:10 GMT -5
Yeah, there is something wrong with the system. NO... the system is meant to protect THE CHILDREN... and provide for them... that is the reason these programs exist, to protect/provide for the innocents So preotecting the children is showing that they can be the biggest lazy, do-nothing slobs and everyone else will just be forced to provide for them and their family? Wow, what a lovely lesson for them to learn...no wonder we have a generational welfare problem.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 19, 2011 13:23:10 GMT -5
I think you are taking it too personally and probably will try to ban those who are against. What people are against is the never ending cycle of it. It ISN'T temporary, temporary implies an end and it should be VERY inconveneient and embarrassing to even be on it, not a status symbol of how you can rip off the taxpayers. Yes, I had 2 kids because 2 kids were what I could AFFORD to have and support. You want to have 20 kids, go for it but not on my dime.
|
|
jkapp
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 12:05:08 GMT -5
Posts: 5,416
|
Post by jkapp on Jan 19, 2011 13:24:09 GMT -5
>>Except... family, friends, neighbors and churches may decide not to help those who don't also help themselves. <<
Wow, what a concept...now THAT is a good lesson to learn.
|
|
|
Post by tea4me on Jan 19, 2011 13:35:51 GMT -5
There is a single mother in my neighborhood that built a house and got a really low interest rate on her mortgage because she was a single mother. Her parents gave her the land. I know this because she told me. I bought a house right around the same time and we were discussing it. So - There is some kind of program for that. This single mother has a full-time job with insurance at a factory in town. The state pays for her child's deductible when he goes to the doctor. She told me this too.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 13:39:01 GMT -5
"So preotecting the children is showing that they can be the biggest lazy, do-nothing slobs and everyone else will just be forced to provide for them and their family? Wow, what a lovely lesson for them to learn...no wonder we have a generational welfare problem."
My parents were 16 and 18... no one in their families had college degrees, until my father... my grandmother still remarks how great it is that all her grandkids own their own homes... the system works in a lot of cases... the majority...
Does it always happen in one cycle, no... you have to listen to some of the stories... sometimes it takes more than one generation to break out of the cycle of poverty... but MORE education and MORE intervention are actually necessary to do this... not less... you have to show them/ teach them there are other ways...
And don't think that if there was no welfare, then there would be no bad habits to break in a culture of poverty... my dad often tells the story of my great grandmother's theories on life... including his favorite "if you are going to the store and don't need anything, at least steal toilet paper'.... some people will suck ANY system you have... the points are how do we deal with them in a way that impacts the rest of the least, and which system gives us the best chance of saving children born into that culture of poverty...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 13:40:47 GMT -5
yes tea, i believe there are low interest loans (although right now, most loans are low interest, so its probably more that they make her interest what it would be if she had better credit).... but that someone is getting 'free house'... or getting a 395K house for 800 a month... that i have not seen...
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jan 19, 2011 14:06:24 GMT -5
I don't hate welfare, I do think some aspects of it need to be modified. I do completely and totally hate people who abuse the welfare system though. They're fucking it up for the people who legitimately need it.
Oh, and I can't stand the state programs to help people buy a house. Since when do you need to own a freaking home? When you're begging for money from the taxpayers, but you're too good to rent, there's a problem.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,270
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 19, 2011 14:11:01 GMT -5
great grandmother's theories on life... including his favorite "if you are going to the store and don't need anything, at least steal toilet paper'..
LMAO. That is so wrong but hysertically funny at the same time.
|
|
souldoubt
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 11:57:14 GMT -5
Posts: 2,745
|
Post by souldoubt on Jan 19, 2011 14:13:02 GMT -5
I realize the system is set up to help/protect children but the catch 22 is that the government can't tell or force someone to not have kids yet taxpayers are on the hook for these programs. I have no problem when assistance is given those who really need it and are truely trying to better their situation. What was frustrating working at a grocery store back in 2000-2002 was seeing people come in with 3+ kids on WIC and food stamps and mom was pregnant. I saw some of the same families come in for the almost 2 1/2 years I worked there and some had more than one kid during those years.
|
|
haapai
Junior Associate
Character
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 20:40:06 GMT -5
Posts: 5,893
|
Post by haapai on Jan 19, 2011 14:22:05 GMT -5
FWIW the EITC is available to people (both single and married) who do not have kids. It's not as large of a credit and it phases out very quickly.
I know this because I qualified for it twice in the last decade. The first time, the credit was huge because I had only worked four and a half months of the year. The next year I caught the tail end of the credit ($25).
Ironically, I received two 5% raises in the second year but netted less per hour after taxes. Weird things can happen as you go from a negative income tax rate to actually paying a small amount of taxes.
I will never regret studying the EITC and my state and federal tax brackets in the year of the big refunds. Understanding how the EITC was going to phase out and other taxes would phase in, allowed me to prepare for the tough year that came next.
Edited to add the following.
Sadly, I was on YM most of the two years in question. I did the necessary research without their help and did not mention my findings. I found the general attitude toward money on the board helpful (study it, it matters) but I was not anxious to become flamebait.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 19, 2011 14:24:01 GMT -5
You're a MOD? You can't spell or even use punctuation correctly. Plus, your interesting use of caps and boldface is just bizarre.
|
|
Jake 48
Senior Member
keeping the faith
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:06:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,337
|
Post by Jake 48 on Jan 19, 2011 14:32:30 GMT -5
Whoever, I don't have a problem with welfare helping people get back on there feet. People who abuse the system is another story. I have had family members on welfare due to job loss(restaurant fire/ seriously burned in fire, could not work/ owner had not been paying workmen s comp etc..) He had five kids to feed, it kept him from losing the house. Does the state you live in have any job training programs, maybe not college but a certificate program, ie: phlebotomy, EKG
|
|
|
Post by justwhoever on Jan 19, 2011 15:43:15 GMT -5
Child care in my home- If I knew for a fact that I would make as much as I do now I would do it tomorrow. However, I should maybe wait for summer break. I don't work during the summer so that would be a good thing to set up. I think I will have to turn that in to the home owners insurance though right? I think if I could get the kids then I could make more money than I do now. I mean, working at a school means I only get 180 days a year. That's all the kids are required to go to school for. If there's no school then there's no need for meals. So yeah, child care would be year round so more money! I will talk that over with my husband and see if he thinks that would be a good thing. I'm sure insurance would go up.
As for job training through the welfare. My husband has been to college. 3 times. They don't feel that there is a need for job training for this household. Not sure what would be good for this area anyways.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jan 19, 2011 16:08:10 GMT -5
As for job training through the welfare. My husband has been to college. 3 times. Does he have three degrees or he's attended on three occasions to finish one degree or something?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 6, 2024 1:33:57 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 16:12:38 GMT -5
Or, you could keep the school job... does it have benefits? ... and watch school age kids in the summer... i have a friend who does this... kids old enough to take care of themselves for the most part, but not old enough to be left alone all day... but you feed them, take them to the pool... mabye it doesn't pay as well as infant/toddler care, but its extra money... and easier... and you can keep your school year job.
Also... you could try a summer camp. Our summer day camp has a meals program, so the same program that provides meals/$ for them, through the school, also provides lunches/snacks to the camp... and they have a cook... its only 8 weeks, but again, something you can do extra, but will not interfere with your school year job..
|
|
haapai
Junior Associate
Character
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 20:40:06 GMT -5
Posts: 5,893
|
Post by haapai on Jan 19, 2011 16:13:29 GMT -5
As for job training through the welfare. My husband has been to college. 3 times.
Does he have three degrees or he's attended on three occasions to finish one degree or something? Or did he decide after three days that it wasn't for him? Sorry, couldn't resist. ;D What's perfectly clear to one person is less so to others.
|
|
cronewitch
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:44:20 GMT -5
Posts: 5,974
|
Post by cronewitch on Jan 19, 2011 17:45:41 GMT -5
Before and after school care for kids at the school you work at would work too. Waitress work in the evening in addition to the day job or working with your husband if that was allowed.
|
|
moon/Laura
Administrator
Forum Owner
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:05:36 GMT -5
Posts: 10,043
Mini-Profile Text Color: f8fb10
|
Post by moon/Laura on Jan 19, 2011 18:07:46 GMT -5
You're a MOD? You can't spell or even use punctuation correctly. Plus, your interesting use of caps and boldface is just bizarre. what does any of that have to do with being a mod?! i rarely use capitalization (bad work habit due to having an average of 10 active chats going) but that has nothing to do with my intelligence or ability to be a mod or anything else. that was a very rude comment to make zib... climb off the high horse and listen to the points he was making.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on Jan 19, 2011 18:24:38 GMT -5
I did try to get his "points" but it was rather incomprehensible and ranting but since he has sent me a private message, I'm sure I'll get whatever he was trying to say much clearer but thanks for defending him.
|
|
Plain Old Petunia
Senior Member
bloom where you are planted
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 2:09:44 GMT -5
Posts: 4,840
|
Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jan 19, 2011 18:28:19 GMT -5
Hi justwhoever. I'll answer. I am not against ANY welfare program as long as it gives the recipient a "hand up" instead of a "hand out". Welfare programs that enable a person to go indefinitely without standing on their own two feet are a disservice to both the recipient and to the taxpayers IMHO. Very well said, Dancinmama. That is how I feel too.
|
|