The fundamentals have not changed.

[rockon]

The fundamentals of our economy have not changed so why would anyone expect a different result?
Our countries economy has been oscillating up and down over the last few decades and the down cycles appear to be getting a little deeper and closer together each time. While I predict some type of a recovery to happen in the aftermath of this latest crash (probably just in time for the 2012 election) I have to look at the basic fundamentals that got us here and question why it won't just happen again. Looking at how severe the latest crash was many are really nervous about what the next one will be like.
We bailed our selves out of this one by borrowing an ungodly amount of money from foreign governments and worst yet we increased the deficit spending. Just ask yourself. Would this strategy work for you personally or for any business? The answer is obviously no. Debt has to be paid back and at a premium cost. Borrowing money for a specific purchase or to reach a specific end can make good sense but using a credit card to live on will only make your life much harder tomorrow.
We still have no reasonable energy policy. Our economy is still completely subject to the volatility of oil prices and OPEC. We still have no real idea what our true cost per gallon is for the gas we buy because there are so many hidden costs like the defense required to protect this oil flow.
Entitlement programs and government pension costs along with their wages have increased to the point that most are now dependents of our government in one form or another. Chances are something you buy or service you use is subsidized or supported in some form or another by your own money via the government.
My point is this: Look around you. Have the fundamentals changed? No. In many cases they are even worse now. So should we expect a different outcome?

[Deleted]

I doubt it, especially with the large numbers of people that think reliance on gov't is not a bad thing, and that people that have the most money should turn it over to the gov't to be doled out to the others that are too complacent and ignorant due to our wonderful gov't education to even try to understand that they need to get up and go make their own money, if they are able bodied, and stop waiting for the gov't to send them some of someone else's.
I heard on a business program that the USA is sitting on hundreds of years of oil. Just think of all the jobs it would create to bring this oil out of the ground and get it to the places it is needed. I also heard that the USA will never again be known for manufacturing. WHY NOT??? So, is it then our fate to import everything we use from countries that detest us, and grow a larger and larger force of gov't dependent drone people?? How can that possibly work?? What, exactly, is it our gov't expects us to do now as our cities die from lack of employment opportunities, and a general malaise that is poison to the survival of an economy, while at the same time drilling it in people's minds that wealth and success is somehow wrong and corrupt? Of course the gov't is doing what it can to kill off the maximum number of people through abortion and rationing of healthcare. That may work with the old people and the sick adult poor people, but the numbers of babies being born on welfare by people that will very likely raise kids to be on welfare stays steady, while the people that have the best chances of raising productive children often choose to abort for convenience or to not even have kids. Do the math on that. It simply does not work in terms of a brighter future ahead.
Atlas Shrugged. I'm on page 435 now. Even when it was written, back when I was a newborn, the gov't was hard at work messing things up. I can't wait to see how it all turns out.

[mmhmm]

I did a paper in college concerning the rising disparity between the rich and the poor in this country. For me, just as a by-word, college was a loooong time ago. At that time, the situation was already in place to allow an escalation of this disparity.

You're right, OP. Nothing's changed, and it's what hasn't changed that results in the disparity I originally researched and the, even larger, disparity that exists today. As long as there are those who would have it all, there will be those who have nothing, or far less than those who are amassing huge fortunes at their expense. Those who have nothing cannot be expected to be happy about this situation and are going to look to their government for the answer. Sadly, the answer lies beyond any one government or, perhaps, beyond governments, at all. It lies in the hands of those who must weild the power and own it all. They're pretty well insultated, I'm afraid.

[rockon]

I have to agree with the basic message of your post that details the disparity between haves and have nots but have to disagree with how to fix it. The ones who really wield the power in this country can be the people if we just use our privilege to vote and use it to demand accountability from the ones we elect. We cannot allow our government to create these huge segments of dependency and not expect these people to become dependents and on the other end we have to demand that they stop selling their votes to these groups that get the exemptions and loopholes that allow them to accumulate money that is not rightly theirs.

[billisonboard]

"Of course the gov't is doing what it can to kill off the maximum number of people through abortion....the numbers of babies being born on welfare ...stays steady, while the people ...choose to abort for convenience or to not even have kids."

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=politics&thread=1823&page=1#67052#ixzz1BOtxl6uA

So the number isn't dropping for one group, the other group is making the choice for reasons of their own, and the government is doing what?

[floridayankee]

Jan 18, 2011 10:12:18 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I did a paper in college concerning the rising disparity between the rich and the poor in this country. For me, just as a by-word, college was a loooong time ago. At that time, the situation was already in place to allow an escalation of this disparity.

I agree. It's called welfare. A system that does not provide much incentive to end the dependence. When you have producers creating economic activity (and money) and the dependents doing nothing but waiting for the next check to arrive, of course that disparity is going to grow.

[mmhmm]

While I do believe there are some serious flaws in our welfare system, I don't blame that for the disparity. The growth of this disparity started before a welfare system came into place. Nope. The culprit is personal greed on the part of those who strive to rise in the political hierarchy.

[Deleted]

Health rationing is a fact, and going to become more so. Kids are being given access to abortion without parental consent, and are taught about these things in schools now. As for the new healthcare bill-- how did that roll out, or has anyone managed to slog their way through it yet? Are federal tax dollars going to be used for abortions? I've heard yes, and I've heard no. One thing for sure-- Planned Parenthood is given an incredible amount of tax dollars, and they are an abortion mill for poor people. You don't see a problem with all the better educated people with more money that would likely have children that grow up and pay taxes not having babies, and the welfare people still cranking them out year after year?? I do. It's backwards and upside down. The poor people would not have so many babies if they knew THEY had to feed, house, and clothe them. Babies are worth $$$$$$ for poor people, opening them up to gov't programs they are no longer entitled to as they reach adult age. JMO, of course. It's all a huge mess. Of course, such is freedom, and the people that constantly try to save the planet by passing laws and making choices that they believe to be the right thing for the planet and all humanity end up leaving the planet more and more to be overrun by the people that want to take their money away from them. Consider the large cities with empty factories, abandoned warehouses, and a huge population on welfare. Businesses that were regulated and robbed out of existence by gov't, many of them.

[mmhmm]

Most of the selling of votes goes on behind the scenes. It's not visible to us, the proletariat, I'm afraid. Furthermore, it's not just in this country. This is world-wide, with those in the highest echelons hand-in-hand to accrue unto themselves all that can be amassed. I hope we never come to see it, but it would, I admit, be interesting to see the war that would occur amongst this elite group once the rest of us were crushed into dust. Somebody, in a group like that, has to come out on top, after all.

[mmhmm]

The health care program is definitely due for more tweaks, in my opinion, krickitt. We just don't know, at this point, what will be included, any more than we know what won't. We don't know enough about it to hazard any guesses, at this point, as I see it.

[rockon]

mmhmm, I agree with your point about personal greed and political hierarchy because we all have some element of greed right from birth otherwise we would not survive and there have always been people who aspire to reach the summit of power and build there hierarchy. There is however a definite connection between hierarchies and dependents. Anyone aspiring to build a hierarchy needs dependents otherwise he wouldn't have a hierarchy. Two major hierarchies in this country are the Democratic and Republican parties and they want dependents not individuals who might challenge their positions. Thats why I suggest a third party to break up this monopoly of power.

[Deleted]

While I predict some type of a recovery to happen in the aftermath of this latest crash (probably just in time for the 2012 election)

That's a pretty safe bet no matter what party is in power. There are a lot of things that can be done to stimulate the economy short term & if it's still not in good shape (coming up on the election) I expect all of them will be tried. Sadly most of the population falls for the party in power "fixing" the economy (no matter who is in power) because they have no idea what's going on.

[mmhmm]

I definitely understand your thinking, rockon, but I don't believe it will work ... simply because of the greed factor we've already discussed. A third party, and its membership, is just as prone to give in to that greed as are those who are already in power and soaking up the benefits to which they somehow feel entitled. It's sad, and it's despicable, but that's what it would come down to. There's just be a few more people up there pocket-papering.

[rockon]

mmhmm, But it's better to try and fail then the alternative which ultimately will be a revolution and it may not be peaceful. I think it was Jefferson who stated early on that for a democracy to work it would require revolting against the party in power every so many years to keep them from doing what is happening today. Maybe some of our posters would know how to find his quote.

[mmhmm]

Agreed, rockon. I think most of us do what we can with our votes, our letters to our congressmen, and any other steps we feel might be beneficial. As for revolution, I don't believe that can be predicted, at this point. I hope it doesn't come to that, as do (I imagine) most thinking people.

[Deleted]

Didn't a revolution of sorts start in November by electing people that are REALLY under the gun... just a word, just a word.... right now to uphold what they ran on?? Non-violent revolution starts in the voting box. 2012 is next, and the people that run had better be very careful that they mean what they say, and follow through on it. I think the lies are what turn people violent over time, as nothing gets done, or things get even worse, even though they have tried their hardest to use their votes to bring about change. God help us all if large numbers of people get beyond angry and hopeless at the same time.

[marjar]

Jan 18, 2011 11:21:20 GMT -5 rockon said:

mmhmm, I agree with your point about personal greed and political hierarchy because we all have some element of greed right from birth otherwise we would not survive and there have always been people who aspire to reach the summit of power and build there hierarchy. There is however a definite connection between hierarchies and dependents. Anyone aspiring to build a hierarchy needs dependents otherwise he wouldn't have a hierarchy. Two major hierarchies in this country are the Democratic and Republican parties and they want dependents not individuals who might challenge their positions. Thats why I suggest a third party to break up this monopoly of power.

I'm not disagreeing, but why won't a third party fall victim to the same? Power does and can corrupt.

[billisonboard]

Jan 18, 2011 12:22:44 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

Didn't a revolution of sorts start in November ...

Off year "revolutions" are always a little questionable. I would love to see the Republicans nominate a strong candidate from the Tea Party wing. (I think that Palin has too much baggage that would focus the campaign on her personally to be a good choice.) Have a good national debate and then an election that would clearly indicate the direction the majority of the American voters wish the country to go.

[rockon]

Over time a third party would most likely fall into the same traps the current parties have but you wouldn't eat rotten apples just because new ones would become rotten eventually. We have to break up their monopoly before things will change.

[marjar]

Jan 18, 2011 14:11:36 GMT -5 rockon said:

Over time a third party would most likely fall into the same traps the current parties have but you wouldn't eat rotten apples just because new ones would become rotten eventually. We have to break up their monopoly before things will change.

Neither side wants to relinquish power and all that comes with it. There are many reasons we've not had a successful third party.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

<<< We just don't know, at this point, what will be included, any more than we know what won't. We don't know enough about it to hazard any guesses, at this point, as I see it. >>>

...did you support its passing?

[mmhmm]

I support what I see as necessary changes in our health care system, Been There. I didn't like some of what has been included in what we have now, and I felt some things were not addressed, or not addressed sufficiently. Therefore, the passing of this particular one isn't to my liking, no. I'll be watching the tweaks.

[rockon]

So any suggestion from anyone on the most effective way to change the fundamentals other then breaking up the monopoly in power? We already seem to acknowledge that this road is heading for a big cliff. Do we just keep complaining about the drivers or try to change course? It not likely to be changed by any tweaks. At this point it will require directional change.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

<<< We just don't know, at this point, what will be included, any more than we know what won't. We don't know enough about it to hazard any guesses, at this point, as I see it. >>>

<<< I didn't like some of what has been included in what we have now, and I felt some things were not addressed, or not addressed sufficiently. >>>

...hmm... you say we don't know enough about it, can't hazard a guess, but you do like some things and dislike others...

[mmhmm]

That's right. I don't know enough about it. I have opinions only on that which I have read. As I made clear, I believe there will be changes, and those changes will have an impact on how I (and others, I'm sure) will view the end result.

[rockon]

This health care bill is also one aspect of our economy but has been severely over rated. This bill has the potential to drive a huge nail in our economic coffin not just because of a particular mandate but mostly because of the associated costs with implementing many of these items that really do nothing to change the way our health care system works or doesn't work and from what I can learn it does almost nothing to reduce our national health care cost which was the original objective. But at the end of the day it will be modified to so that all the greedy little players get something out of it and they will claim it as a victory for the American people and we the people can start paying for it. This bill speaks more about the way business is done in Washington then most examples I can think of.

[marjar]

Jan 18, 2011 15:10:36 GMT -5 rockon said:

So any suggestion from anyone on the most effective way to change the fundamentals other then breaking up the monopoly in power? We already seem to acknowledge that this road is heading for a big cliff. Do we just keep complaining about the drivers or try to change course? It not likely to be changed by any tweaks. At this point it will require directional change.

I want to do a bit of research on this.

[burnsattornincan]

Here is one of the main problems;

The Obama administration and American Civil Liberties Union had asked Bolton to strike down the law.

A State in crisis finally has to do something that will have a real effect and the response was to coerce an unelected federal judge to strike down SB 1070. Political correctness gone completely haywire. Now, millions more must be spent just to even have a chance of implementing the law. Utter insanity. You will probably sputter along down this road of nonsense until complete collapse. There are just too many people with different agendas and not enough cohesion. In my opinion this is what happens to countries that allow mass immigration from dissimilar countries, ie: third world.

[deziloooooo]

Jan 18, 2011 17:10:01 GMT -5 burnsattornincan said:

Here is one of the main problems;

The Obama administration and American Civil Liberties Union had asked Bolton to strike down the law.

A State in crisis finally has to do something that will have a real effect and the response was to coerce an unelected federal judge to strike down SB 1070. Political correctness gone completely haywire. Now, millions more must be spent just to even have a chance of implementing the law. Utter insanity. You will probably sputter along down this road of nonsense until complete collapse. There are just too many people with different agendas and not enough cohesion. In my opinion this is what happens to countries that allow mass immigration from dissimilar countries, ie: third world.

What a story you can tell the grand kids as you reminisce in your dolt-ridge of the observance of the great disintegration of the colossus to the south of you. ;D

[burnsattornincan]

Mr. deziloooooo, you continue to misread what I'm trying to get across. I have nothing to gloat about in your country's demise, in fact much to lose. I am just attempting to put the problems right out there without filters in the hopes it might sink in to someone that can actually change things. And things need to be changed, no arguments there.