Will a masters degree help?

[lynnerself]

My son graduated with a Bachelors in Aeronautical engineering in 2008 and has been unable to find work in his field since.
He even tried the Air force, had great scores, but the Air Force was not accepting any new candidates to officer training.
Now he is considering going back for his masters because
1. Some jobs require a masters for entry level
2 Being out of work for 2.5 years makes him a very bad candidate in his field
3 Hopefully the job market will continue to improve while he is in school
His main concern is taking on the debt (~$60, 000 unless he gets some financial aid)
I know there are engineers in this community.
Do you think this is a good move?
Would you have any other suggestions?

[Lindz85]

I don't know anything about that field. But having only a bachelor's degree, there are other jobs that I am looking into that I would be much more competitive if I had my master's or they require a master's degree. I would suggest that he get his master's degree.

[phil5185]

with a Bachelors in Aeronautical engineering in 2008 and has been unable to find work in his field since

I'm surprised by that, I see lots engineering job offers on-line. Is he being too particular - turning down potential openings?
He may be limiting his possibilities, both geographically and specialty. The offers seem to be in metro areas all across the US & AK - and most are for mechanical & manufacturing engineers (also electrical & civil but his degree isn't applicable there). His calculus, statistics, thermodynamics, kinematics, can be applied to many fields, not just Bernoulli stuff.

My employer was a Fortune 500 company - I was a mechanical engineer in the R&D dept - we had several non-mech members - physics majors, petroleum engineers, chem engineers, industrial engineers, etc.

I would encourage him to apply/take any entry level engineering job in any state - and get some experience - a non-aero engineering job will look better on the resume that blank time.

[Deleted]

I was waiting for th engineers to reply.

I was out of the job market for several years as a teacher. I went to graduate school to make my degree more current. But I wouldn't pay $60,000 for it. Even with inflation, I only paid $6000 for a second master's in 2008 (but I had $6500 worth of scholarships).

I just don't think it costs that much if you don't go to private schools. If it is $60,000 there, it should be no more than $15,000 to $20,000 at a public school. He needs to shop around.

Also, sometimes engineers can get assistantships teaching math and science courses. I have a friend whose daughter is working on an electrical engineer degree whose whole degree is paid for. Sure, she gets a small stipend, but it is definitely livable.

[beeinkc]

If the Air Force doesn't need officers right now but he wants to go that route, maybe another branch of service would be good. Maybe he can branch out into other areas of engineering or other fields even. I'm sure the Navy and Army have plenty of things that he could do. Its just a thought. I don't really think more school is the answer and if it is paid for with loans it could seal his doom.

[Regis]

I'm a civil engineer and I agree completely with Phil's analysis of the engineering market. He needs to get an engineering job anywhere and at pretty much any price. I don't believe a master's degree is the way to go right now.

[Peace77]

Has he applied for work with NASA?

Look on USAJobs.gov

Use aeronautical as a key word and you will see several jobs that he could apply for. He may need to move but those are good paying jobs.

Can also use engineer as a key word.

[973beachbum]

I would encourage him to apply/take any entry level engineering job in any state - and get some experience - a non-aero engineering job will look better on the resume that blank time.

DH is an civil engineer with a masters. And I disagree with this. Maybe in their particular area of the country there is a little movement but in most that we have contact with there are very few openings. When there is an opening they literally have hundreds of applications. They don't even look at an application of someone with a different specialty. Maybe in a better economy they might because they don't have very many applicants but now they have hundreds for every job. There is no reason to even look at an aero or mechanical engineer when they want a civil or vice versa since they have tons of people that have the exact experience and education the want. And I have seen many companies drive people crazy because they now want the candidate that is an exact match. Close isn't good enough anymore. No way would they take completely different but willing to apply themself and learn. Those days are long gone.

I know that is not the answer you want. Maybe he can talk with some of his professors in his specialty. They might have contacts in his field that could help. Even someone that they could put him in contact with that could mentor him in his search would be helpful Failing that I would talk to him about maybe looking at other branches of the military since he mentioned that.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Good luck.

[phil5185]

www.engineerjobs.com/jobs/aerospace-engineering/

I looked in Aeronautical Engineering Jobs, looks like there are quite a few in Seattle, Boeing. And a few in GA at Lockheed and Wyle. And the AZ Boeing has been hiring. And a couple in SC. Coincidently, I've been to all 3 of those companies - design meetings and test services - I would work for any one of them.

But $60k for an MS AE can never be recovered - doesn't pass the common sense test. An alternate plan might be a double major? What are his other interests/skills? On my biggest project I had 28 engineers working for me - mostly MEs & EEs, maybe 6 had masters degrees. All were promoted/paid based on performance, didn't pay MSs for credentials, only for results. But I had one double major ME/EE - I had never even seen one before, extra sharp guy, a stand-out, paid him well.

[bimetalaupt]

Today at 8:47pm, lurkyloo wrote:
KK is right. It depends a lot on the particular field, but competition for academic jobs is extremely cutthroat, and being a professor is not an easy job--it's something you do because you really love a particular subject and want to spend ALL of your time on it. (Literally, six days a week and 10-14 hours a day is typical, at least in science.) Even then, you still have way too much to do: writing grants, planning and teaching classes, grading, committees, advising students on their research. It varies somewhat based on what level you're teaching at (community college, four-year college, research university) but it's trickling down and expectations are rising at all levels. Tenure, too, is a tricky beast. You work very, very hard for five or six years, and then it's pretty much a crapshoot whether you get tenure or have to go start over at a new school.

In my experience, a PhD tends to restrict your options a lot. The PhD job market is oversaturated, and now you're overqualified for a lot of other jobs. So, it's not enough to just squeak through. You have to really stand out. Getting a PhD is something you should do because you're really committed to and passionate about a subject, not because you have nothing better to do. (My experience: I did my undergrad at a top 15 university, PhD at a top 5 and postdoc at another top 5. Most of my classmates had at most one or two job offers (would-be industry and academic folks both), some of them job-searched for a year or more.)

Sorry to be so negative, but these are honestly things I would have liked to know myself, back in the day.


OP,
I am with you and other but thought I would put a new Spin on MBA as the Masters based on two classmates I had that were also Aerospace Engineers. Both moved up with great jobs into the next salary range jobs. If he is good with numbers then MBA in finance or MIT has a global operation MBA could be great.

As far as I was concern I had degrees in Medical Microbiology and Pharmacy so the MBA took me and my firm into the next step in the income bracket.. Also the networking with other in my class was great. It was the little things I picked up like know to network that made it great. I have received about 16-18% return on my investment. 75% of my current investment have nothing to do with Pharmacy or Health Care but direct finance.It has opened up a whole new field for me and my family(son).

Wish him the best,
Bi Metal Au Pt

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=finance&thread=1669&page=1#ixzz1BAD8S7SO

[973beachbum]

Jan 15, 2011 21:41:41 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

www.engineerjobs.com/jobs/aerospace-engineering/

I looked in Aeronautical Engineering Jobs, looks like there are quite a few in Seattle, Boeing. And a few in GA at Lockheed and Wyle. And the AZ Boeing has been hiring. And a couple in SC. Coincidently, I've been to all 3 of those companies - design meetings and test services - I would work for any one of them.

But $60k for an MS AE can never be recovered - doesn't pass the common sense test. An alternate plan might be a double major? What are his other interests/skills? On my biggest project I had 28 engineers working for me - mostly MEs & EEs, maybe 6 had masters degrees. All were promoted/paid based on performance, didn't pay MSs for credentials, only for results. But I had one double major ME/EE - I had never even seen one before, extra sharp guy, a stand-out, paid him well.

Phil, that is why I said in DH's area of expertise. I knew that somewhere they would need aero engineers. But I don't think him trying for an entry level engineer in any discipline will work. He needs to find a job in his own field.

I also don't know if those companies would look at someone who graduated 2 years ago and has never had a job as an engineer. Again in our area engineers with PE's and masters are taking entry level jobs just to stay working. They have plenty of people applying who don't have a 2 year gap since graduating and have worked as engineers that they can hire for the same price.

OP has he thought about becoming a HS math teacher? In NJ there is an alternate route program that helps people with other degrees become certified teachers. I know that around here math teachers are still in demand. Science is also one of the more sought after teachers. Just a thought.

[mtntigger]

This is one of the main reasons why I got out of the aero. program in the early 1990s - too specialized a field and limited job opportunities.
I received a B.S. in Environmental Engineering and then I went to get a masters degree in Environmental. Phil is right, getting a masters in any type of engineering is worthless; engineers just are not promoted that way, even initially. Colleges do pay for the engineering students to get a masters the majority of the time, but that isn't a reason to do it. $60K school debt means he hasn't done his research into what is available.
If he wants to go into teaching or research, then suggest a PhD, otherwise, stick with the bachelors degree. However, that doesn't exclude him from going back to school and getting a second bachelors in a more general engineering like Mechanical (if he is willing).
If the Air Force isn't hiring, have him look at industry and he will probably have to move. Boeing would be my first choice because I've seen too much of the internal politics in Lockheed, but both of these companies would allow growth in the field.

[lynnerself]

My DS did apply all over the country when he first graduated for all kinds of entry positions, but only those he was qualified for in his field. Nothing materialized. I'm not sure how hard he has been looking lately. Boeing was absolutely his first choice. He was on their web site all the time, But they have been downsizing and have very little entry level.
Out of state tuition alone at University of Washington (public) is $25,000 / year. It is similar for other schools that he is looking at.
It's hard to establish residency if you don't know what school you will be accepted into. Obviously he is doing his research to find scholarships/ fellowships/ funding etc.
If (big if) he is able to find a good job, paying back the loans would be doable.
I have suggested something more general (mechanical engineering) and he considering it.
I know if went back he would be more focused on activities (internships etc) that might lead to employment than he was before.
At this point he is not pursuing the military. He has a health issue that may prevent him from being accepted.
Phil, you will notice that in the web site you listed the vast majority of jobs require experience.

[mtntigger]

Is there anyway that he can get that experience outside an engineering job? For example, the newbie engineers I know are all book-trained. The ones with more hands-on experience (e.g., construction or mechanics-turned engineers) are more sought after. Has he thought about working on planes or getting a degree in mechanics or maybe becoming a pilot in the meantime?

[zibazinski]

The Army and The Marines are all that are taking new bodies.

[zibazinski]

Has he looked at the FBI?

[tcu2003]

If he goes to get a masters, I would encourage him to look at a masters in mechanical engineering. Aero is a subset of mech, and more specialized, which is probably hindering his job search now. Also, many (most?) engineers don't pay for anywhere near all of their masters degrees - I did not, and I went to a top 10 ME masters programs. There are research assistant positions, teaching assistant positions, and fellowships where they pay for your tuition, plus a monthly stipend. So, if he wants to apply, go for it - but don't accept if he has to shell out all the funding for it.

Back on the job hunt, though - there are engineering positions available, but maybe not in his local area. Does he have any friends/former classmates who are employed as AEs? Are their companies hiring? If so, he should ask them if they'd be willing to refer him. At many companies, your resume will be fast tracked onto a hiring manager's desk if a current employee recommends that person. Also, if he has a close relationship with any former professors, they may be able to provide some advice.

[phil5185]

Phil, you will notice that in the web site you listed the vast majority of jobs require experience.

I hope he isn't letting that stop him? HR writers list their desires, ie, their 'perfect' applicant. But, in real life, they hire real people - and all of us had a 'first job'.

What does he do now? Entry level retail, blue collar work, truck driver? Working on a pilot's license?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Phil, you will notice that in the web site you listed the vast majority of jobs require experience.

Out of curiousity, what did your son do in college while he was getting his degree? Most programs have some sort of internship - or other programs - where you can gain experience that'll give you a leg up. What's he been doing the last couple years? Has he done anything to enhance his position?

Honestly, if he doesn't have any experience with a BS and no experience, with an MS and no experience he'll likely be in the same position - only with a $60K debt on his head too.

[bimetalaupt]

Jan 16, 2011 11:08:53 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Phil, you will notice that in the web site you listed the vast majority of jobs require experience.

Out of curiousity, what did your son do in college while he was getting his degree? Most programs have some sort of internship - or other programs - where you can gain experience that'll give you a leg up. What's he been doing the last couple years? Has he done anything to enhance his position?

Honestly, if he doesn't have any experience with a BS and no experience, with an MS and no experience he'll likely be in the same position - only with a $60K debt on his head too.

Your are a bit narrow in the eye sight of the effect of the vastly superior MBA.. Esp with MBA average income being 30% more the other masters.. Sorry

[Peace77]

The following position listed does not require experience. They do look at the GPA. They also want applicants who have graduated in the past 2 years. I would still encourage him to apply.

jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=95092176&JobTitle=Professional+Engineering&q=aeronautical&where=&x=49&y=14&brd=3876&vw=b&FedEmp=N&FedPub=Y&pg=2&re=4&AVSDM=2011-01-14+13%3a58%3a00

[bimetalaupt]

Jan 16, 2011 22:04:23 GMT -5 bimetalaupt said:

Jan 16, 2011 11:08:53 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Phil, you will notice that in the web site you listed the vast majority of jobs require experience.

Out of curiousity, what did your son do in college while he was getting his degree? Most programs have some sort of internship - or other programs - where you can gain experience that'll give you a leg up. What's he been doing the last couple years? Has he done anything to enhance his position?

Honestly, if he doesn't have any experience with a BS and no experience, with an MS and no experience he'll likely be in the same position - only with a $60K debt on his head too.

I would like to add this to the above .. MBA is worth about 15% return on the total cost.. I did a bit better with a degree in Pharmacy and then my MBA. Owned several firms as did my brother... i did my MBA at MIT,UT_Austin,Tarleton, London , NYU and INSEAD.
OK I had a lot of fun also!!! The bottom line was a great life and fantastic Network..

Just a thought,
Bi Metal Au Pt
First Year MBA Salaries

According to The National Association of Colleges and Employers, in 2006, average MBA salaries were $90,000. First-year MBA graduates' salaries average between $50,000 and $75,000–with more than 40% earning $75,000 and up.>

The Graduate Management Admission Council (GMAC) compiled salaries of first-year MBA graduates in different career fields. The average 2006 base salaries plus additional compensations were as follows:

* Health Care – $111,477
* Finance – $103,122
* Consulting – $101,736
* Energy/Utilities – $100,263
* High Tech – $98,621
* Manufacturing – $98,417
* Products/Services – $94,558
* Non-Profit/Government – $73,125

As a potential employee, you will have to weigh the benefits of accepting a position with a higher base salary against a position with a lower salary that offers bonuses and other perks. These perks can include annual bonuses, car allowance, tuition reimbursement, relocation costs and more.
MBA Salary Factors

Of course, average salary information is just a guideline to help you know what to expect. Starting salaries could be much higher or much lower, depending on many different factors that affect salaries. These factors include:


Your are a bit narrow in the eye sight of the effect of the vastly superior MBA.. Esp with MBA average income being 30% more the other masters.. Sorry

[dragonfly7]

"I hope he isn't letting that stop him? HR writers list their desires, ie, their 'perfect' applicant. But, in real life, they hire real people - and all of us had a 'first job'."

When the job market is as flooded as it is right now, HR also has the ability to hold out for that perfect applicant. For example, I have applied for the SAME Secretary position at the Farmer's Branch IRS office five times in the past three months. Each time they post the position, the job description is a little bit different. I watched the City of Grand Prairie repost the same Environmental Specialist position three times. I see Dallas ISD post, close, and repost the same teaching positions at the same schools over and over again.

OP, I admit to knowing nothing about engineering, but if aeronautical engineering is a subset of mechanical engineering, then the suggestion to get a second degree in that while continuing the job search makes the most sense to me.

Another thing I just stumbled across: Would he be interested in the NOAA Corps at all? I saw some aircraft...