College Football Gets a Black Eye Over Sex Scandal

[Virgil Showlion]

I'll probably regret asking this, but:

- What is Mr. Paterno's role in all of this? Is he accused of simply knowing about the abuse and doing nothing? Knowing about it and actively covering it up? Participating in it?

- If the answer to the above is "knowing about the abuse and doing nothing": does he have plausible deniability? Eight assaults over 17 years could reasonably go unnoticed if the assaults were brief and Mr. Sandusky was diligent in organizing both his opportunities and their aftermaths.

[Forever Sunshine]

And at what point does hearsay come to play in this. Paterno did not witness the criminal act. It was told to him.

I have no doubt there is far more to this story than meets the eye. It's also been reported that Texas police are investigating Sandusky to see if there was something that went on during a trip he took to Texas with a young boy.

It's my impression from what's been reported Paterno knew of the crime and made the proper school authorities aware. I think the Board of Trustees fired him because Paterno had made a statement that he would finish out the season before the Board met. And I think the Board wanted to show him they were boss, not him and fired him over the phone.

[mmhmm]

Nov 12, 2011 22:55:40 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I'll probably regret asking this, but:

- What is Mr. Paterno's role in all of this? Is he accused of simply knowing about the abuse and doing nothing? Knowing about it and actively covering it up? Participating in it?

- If the answer to the above is "knowing about the abuse and doing nothing": does he have plausible deniability? Eight assaults over 17 years could reasonably go unnoticed if the assaults were brief and Mr. Sandusky was diligent in organizing both his opportunities and their aftermaths.

From what I've been able to gather, Virgil, it is believed Mr. Paterno knew of the abuse and did nothing, or MAY have been involved in a cover-up. I don't think all the evidence is in yet.

[probardreject]

Hello Sunshine, Happy birthday.
Long time no write.
We have lot to catch up on.
Are you still making yourself busy?
I see you on a lot of pro board sites, I will join them.
so me and you can communicate more!...

[Virgil Showlion]

it is believed Mr. Paterno knew of the abuse and did nothing, or MAY have been involved in a cover-up

Is this such a major scandal because Mr. Paterno was the type who could do no wrong, or because he was the winningest football coach, or both?

I only rarely follow American football, but I'd never heard Mr. Paterno's name until this scandal came up. I'm guessing that a lot of the non-US audience here is in that same boat.

[mmhmm]

I think the reason this has raised so much fury is because Mr. Sandusky, Mr. Paterno and several of the other school officials involved promoted themselves as the nearest equivalent to Jesus the human race has. Mr. Sandusky had a charity for disadvantaged children. Since this has broken, it looks like one of the purposes of that charity was to find young boys to molest, Virgil. These molestations came to light as early as 12 years ago, but were swept under the rug. I really think people are just having a hard time believing that Paterno and the rest of the school officials could have remained ignorant of this whole mess for that long when investigations were conducted at least twice into Sandusky's behavior with young men. Yet, they still allowed him to use the school facilities for his "charity" work.

[steff]

Let's not forget that AFTER Joe Pa was told about the abuse, he continued to allow the abuser to have free access to several campuses, football games, offices inside the main campus & many other freedoms....AFTER being told about the abuse. He knew the abuser was using his charity & the Penn State campus to bring young boys to and did nothing.

[tallguy]

Nov 13, 2011 15:14:38 GMT -5 steff said:

Let's not forget that AFTER Joe Pa was told about the abuse, he continued to allow the abuser to have free access to several campuses, football games, offices inside the main campus & many other freedoms....AFTER being told about the abuse. He knew the abuser was using his charity & the Penn State campus to bring young boys to and did nothing.

But that goes back to my earlier questions. Some of the phrasing that has been reported concerned "horsing around" in the shower. Was Paterno told the extent of the abuse, either by McQueary or later in the process? And did Schultz who oversaw the campus police tell Paterno at any point either that it would be investigated and reported, or that it had been? I would want those answers before I hang him.

[Forever Sunshine]

Nov 13, 2011 11:33:39 GMT -5 @probardreject said:

Hello Sunshine, Happy birthday.
Long time no write.
We have lot to catch up on.
Are you still making yourself busy?
I see you on a lot of pro board sites, I will join them.
so me and you can communicate more!...

Not likely mr. reject. It's my understanding you've been banned from many proboards, including mine. It's not my birthday nor is it my desire to communicate with you.

Thanks

[Forever Sunshine]

Nov 13, 2011 7:54:54 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Nov 12, 2011 22:55:40 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I'll probably regret asking this, but:

- What is Mr. Paterno's role in all of this? Is he accused of simply knowing about the abuse and doing nothing? Knowing about it and actively covering it up? Participating in it?

- If the answer to the above is "knowing about the abuse and doing nothing": does he have plausible deniability? Eight assaults over 17 years could reasonably go unnoticed if the assaults were brief and Mr. Sandusky was diligent in organizing both his opportunities and their aftermaths.

From what I've been able to gather, Virgil, it is believed Mr. Paterno knew of the abuse and did nothing, or MAY have been involved in a cover-up. I don't think all the evidence is in yet.

Mr. Paterno did, in fact, tell the proper "school" authorities based on the hearsay of McQueary.

[Forever Sunshine]

I think the reason this has raised so much fury is because Mr. Sandusky, Mr. Paterno and several of the other school officials involved promoted themselves as the nearest equivalent to Jesus the human race has.

LOL seriously?

[Virgil Showlion]

Gah.

Well. This is one news story I'm going to keep my nose out of. It sounds like a lawyer's paradise: ten thousand accounts of who said what to whom when, but no more than ten at a time can be weaved into a consistent story.

[steff]

Let's put it this way..... someone comes to you at work and says "I saw so & so in the bathroom with a child & what was going on was very inappropriate (to put it mildly). Would you report it to your boss and think nothing else of it? If the next week you saw so & so at work with another young child heading to the bathroom....would you think nothing of it and say to yourself "I told my boss...no longer my problem what happens"? Would you think nothing of it when you see so & so week after week with a young child alone? Would you never, at the very least, follow up on what if anything is being done about so & so and what has been reported?

[tallguy]

Nov 13, 2011 16:08:22 GMT -5 steff said:

Let's put it this way..... someone comes to you at work and says "I saw so & so in the bathroom with a child & what was going on was very inappropriate (to put it mildly). Would you report it to your boss and think nothing else of it? If the next week you saw so & so at work with another young child heading to the bathroom....would you think nothing of it and say to yourself "I told my boss...no longer my problem what happens"? Would you think nothing of it when you see so & so week after week with a young child alone? Would you never, at the very least, follow up on what if anything is being done about so & so and what has been reported?

Not at all. But that isn't my question. Until more information comes out, we don't really know what Paterno was told by McQueary. And we don't know if Schultz told Paterno anything about it having been investigated following Paterno's report to Curley and Schultz.

As I said, we can assume that Paterno knew, but until that becomes more than an assumption, I'm not vilifying him. And I did already say as well that he was at least negligent in not following up on the matter.

And unless you have more information than the rest of us, it wasn't week after week. It was at least several victims over a multi-year period.

[swamp]

Tallguy: Have you read the grand jury report? It should answer most of your questions.

For a man that touted honor and integrity, Joe Paterno is a dirt ball.

[steff]

Nov 13, 2011 16:57:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

Tallguy: Have you read the grand jury report? It should answer most of your questions.

For a man that touted honor and integrity, Joe Paterno is a dirt ball.

[mmhmm]

Nov 13, 2011 15:58:16 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Gah.

Well. This is one news story I'm going to keep my nose out of. It sounds like a lawyer's paradise: ten thousand accounts of who said what to whom when, but no more than ten at a time can be weaved into a consistent story.

Probably the best idea, Virgil. It's pretty sordid, no matter how they twist it. The only important part of it, to me, is those young boys. They're being lost in the shuffle with all the garbage about Paterno, et al.

[mmhmm]

Nov 13, 2011 11:33:39 GMT -5 @probardreject said:

Hello Sunshine, Happy birthday.
Long time no write.
We have lot to catch up on.
Are you still making yourself busy?
I see you on a lot of pro board sites, I will join them.
so me and you can communicate more!...

If you think you're going to bring trouble from another board to this one, I'd rethink it, if I were you. It will not be tolerated.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

[tallguy]

Nov 13, 2011 16:57:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

Tallguy: Have you read the grand jury report? It should answer most of your questions.

For a man that touted honor and integrity, Joe Paterno is a dirt ball.

Swamp,

As I recall, the grand jury report found that McQueary was very credible in his testimony to them. But did the report make clear what he told Paterno originally? And they found that Curley and Schultz were not credible, hence why they are being charged. But correct me if I'm wrong, they did not find that Paterno did anything (at least legally) wrong? He certainly failed what we would hope a respected coach would do in not at least following up. But did the report make clear that he knew of the extent of the abuse at the time?

[mmhmm]

Here's a link to the Grand Jury report, tallguy:

cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sandusky-grand-jury-presentment.pdf

The part you're questioning is discussed in the accounting of Victim 2.

[swamp]

Nov 13, 2011 17:36:58 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 13, 2011 16:57:41 GMT -5 swamp said:

Tallguy: Have you read the grand jury report? It should answer most of your questions.

For a man that touted honor and integrity, Joe Paterno is a dirt ball.

Swamp,

As I recall, the grand jury report found that McQueary was very credible in his testimony to them. But did the report make clear what he told Paterno originally? And they found that Curley and Schultz were not credible, hence why they are being charged. But correct me if I'm wrong, they did not find that Paterno did anything (at least legally) wrong? He certainly failed what we would hope a respected coach would do in not at least following up. But did the report make clear that he knew of the extent of the abuse at the time?

They did not make it clear, but from what they found Schultz adn Curley did or didn't do, it sounds like they were told what happened, and they only got that information from Paterno.

It's my understanding that Schultz was head of the campus police adn Paterno fulfilled his legal obligation by reporting to him. Morally, though, he totally dropped the ball, hence my belief he's a dirtball.

[tallguy]

Nov 13, 2011 18:04:57 GMT -5 swamp said:

Nov 13, 2011 17:36:58 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Swamp,

As I recall, the grand jury report found that McQueary was very credible in his testimony to them. But did the report make clear what he told Paterno originally? And they found that Curley and Schultz were not credible, hence why they are being charged. But correct me if I'm wrong, they did not find that Paterno did anything (at least legally) wrong? He certainly failed what we would hope a respected coach would do in not at least following up. But did the report make clear that he knew of the extent of the abuse at the time?

They did not make it clear, but from what they found Schultz adn Curley did or didn't do, it sounds like they were told what happened, and they only got that information from Paterno.

It's my understanding that Schultz was head of the campus police adn Paterno fulfilled his legal obligation by reporting to him. Morally, though, he totally dropped the ball, hence my belief he's a dirtball.

I read somewhere that Curley and Schultz met with McQueary after Paterno told them what he knew. I don't know if Paterno was at that meeting. So it is not necessarily true that those two got all their information from Paterno. And Schultz did oversee the campus police, so the natural assumption one would make is that at least the campus police would be informed at that point.

[tallguy]

Nov 13, 2011 17:47:53 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Here's a link to the Grand Jury report, tallguy:

cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sandusky-grand-jury-presentment.pdf

The part you're questioning is discussed in the accounting of Victim 2.

Thanks.

This does suggest that Paterno knew at least a little bit of what happened, but there is still a tremendous difference between what Paterno reported to Curley and Schultz, and what McQueary testified he reported to Curley and Schultz. And no, Paterno was not present for that meeting. So again, the reasonable assumption would be that Curley and Schultz are far more responsible than Paterno in this matter not being handled properly. Paterno sounds negligent, while the other two sound culpable.

[mmhmm]

An interesting article on Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz can be found here:
www.ology.com/sports/perjury-trap-legal-defense-tim-curley-and-gary-schultz

What the result will be of their perjury trials, I have no clue.

[mskitty]

How do you see a child being molested and walk away? Why do you not go to the police when you get a report that a child has been molested? All who knew of this terrible crime is guilty in one way or the other. We are suppose to protect our children.

[jstnay]

Ray Gricar Opted Not To Prosecute Sandusky In 1998, Went Missing In 2005
They knew years ago
Centre County prosecutor Ray Gricar decided not to prosecute then-Penn St. Nittany Lions DC Jerry Sandusky in 1998 after charges of child molestation were made. He never fully explained his decision.

Seven years later, then-district attorney Gricar went missing. His car was found abandoned in a parking lot and his laptop was found in the Susquehanna River, damaged beyond repair. He was declared dead this past July after a fruitless search never turned up his body.

Now, it is very early in the prosecution of Sandusky and it might be a bit of a leap to assume all of this is connected. The one thing that is true, however, is that Gricar's reasons for choosing not to prosecute will almost never be known.

That's not to say Gricar didn't try to find out everything he could about Sandusky. Gricar was said to have led the investigation into the coach himself and even had a police officer hide in the house of an alleged victim while the mother confronted Sandusky. That confrontation allegedly led to Sandusky's admission that he showered with a child.

There is no proof as to whether or not Gricar ever heard about the 2002 shower incident years later.
www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/11/7/2545027/-jerry-sandusky-ray-gricar-prosecutor-1998-penn-state-missing

[jstnay]

$100,000 bail is chicken feed to Sandusky, the Prosecution ask that his bail be raised to $500,000 the Judge refused. $100K is not nearly enough for someone accused of child Rape and Molestation, especially when they have a Grand Jury report and other evidence.

The Judge is a volunteer at the Charity Sandusky started and where he groomed these children.
She should have recused herself from this matter.

[daisylu]

Nov 14, 2011 11:13:21 GMT -5 @jstnay said:

$100,000 bail is chicken feed to Sandusky, the Prosecution ask that his bail be raised to $500,000 the Judge refused. $100K is not nearly enough for someone accused of child Rape and Molestation, especially when they have a Grand Jury report and other evidence.

The Judge is a volunteer at the Charity Sandusky started and where he groomed these children.
She should have recused herself from this matter.

He didn't even HAVE TO POST the $100,000 - he just has to pay it if he does not show up to court. WTF is that?

[jstnay]

Nov 14, 2011 11:19:03 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Nov 14, 2011 11:13:21 GMT -5 @jstnay said:

$100,000 bail is chicken feed to Sandusky, the Prosecution ask that his bail be raised to $500,000 the Judge refused. $100K is not nearly enough for someone accused of child Rape and Molestation, especially when they have a Grand Jury report and other evidence.

The Judge is a volunteer at the Charity Sandusky started and where he groomed these children.
She should have recused herself from this matter.

He didn't even HAVE TO POST the $100,000 - he just has to pay it if he does not show up to court. WTF is that?

How does he pay it if he skips to another Country? These people are still protecting not only him but the University.

And now the CEO and General Council of 'Second Mile' have resigned because they knew about the 2002 incident.

[mmhmm]

This whole thing is so sad in so many ways. It will, no doubt, bring down "Second Mile", which could have been of so much value to disadvantaged and at-risk children had Sandusky not been a part of it. The hooplah over Paterno has all but drowned out the cries of the kids who were abused by this monster. The suffering of those children, and their families, should be foremost in everyone's mind. We must find a way to ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen again.