President Obama's speech at the memorial

[deziloooooo]

I am sure if this was held at the national Cathedral in Washington it would have had a different tone, but as Steff says..amusing stories are told about those who are gone at these things...and it was a celebration of life and hope as well as a memorial to those who are gone, hard to do together.

Possible part of the problem is, people didn't really know what to expect thus the ambivalence , just not sure was the correct mood should have been.

One doesn't get a chance to rehearse these things..go out on the road and try it out and have do overs , re writes.

These events, mostly just wing it, and in this case , to me , the winging it came out just fine.

[steff]

It should also be noted, that the speakers are not responsible for the crowd applauding.

[Tennesseer]

Yesterday's event was not a funeral. It wasn't even a memorial service. What it was was a number of speakers, including our president, speaking to the residents of Tucson, the people of Arizona and the citizens of the United States to help us all make sense of the events of the past week. Those who died, those who were injured and those who saved the lives of others were recognized.

I personally find nothing wrong in offering applause to those who were killed and injured and to the rescuers. To me it is a testament of respect and love for these people. And you also must remember-the thousands of citizens in the stands had no other way of expressing their feelings other than offering applause.

I don't know how many of you watched the funeral of Pope John Paul II, but the crowd, the hundreds of thousands who attended the open air service in St. Peter's Square, clapped and clapped for quite some period of time. And for those who did watch it-do you remember when the casket bearers began to return the pope's casket back into the Cathedral, the crowd demanded one last look at the pope. The casket bearers, with the approval of the church, turned around and lifted the casket one last time for the people. The audience again erupted in clapping and cheers in appreciation of the pope.

From Forum.Catholic.Com:

Applause that is meant to critique a performance is inappropriate at Mass because it gives the impression that the Mass is a performance offered to them for their approval rather than worship that is offered up to God for his glory. The clapping and shouts at John Paul II's funeral were not intended as approval for the homily or the Mass. They were intended as tribute to John Paul, the only and final tribute that those in the crowd were able to offer to someone they loved, admired, and believed to be a saint. Indeed, the media reported that clapping at a funeral is an Italian custom to salute the departed individual. Given all this, the clapping and shouts at John Paul II's funeral were not objectionable and need not have been stopped. Indeed, I read in Matthew Bunson's book We Have a Pope! that a very similar scene took place at the funeral of Pope Gregory the Great in the seventh century.

When a notable person passes away, how often have you seen people line the streets and when the hearse and motorcade pass, the people either salute or offer applause in appreciation, recognition and respect of the person’s life. I have seen it quite often.

Last night was neither a funeral nor a memorial service. Those events began today. Let the citizens of Tucson honor their dead in the manner they deserve during their funerals.

[steff]

I remember seeing that Tenn, but had forgotten about it until you mentioned it. I've been to a New Orleans jazz style funeral before and it was very loud & boisterous. A far cry from the typical funeral setting and mood.

[handyman2]

Although at times applause at a memorial service is not the most courteous thing to do. In this case the gathering was to show respect and honor the dead, it also was to thank those that demonstrated outstanding valor and courage. Was it over done a bit? Maybe and at times the President appeared a bit uncomfortable when it went on somewhat long. But under the circumstances understandable. On the whole it was well done in my view.

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 13, 2011 21:37:05 GMT -5 steff said:

It should also be noted, that the speakers are not responsible for the crowd applauding.

Sorry but good speech writers craft their scripts to draw specific reactions from the audience the pauses were planned and deliberate. Obama got what he wanted another opportunity to feed his ego in front of a young impressionable audience, which shows a total lack of respect for the situation.

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 13, 2011 21:56:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Yesterday's event was not a funeral. It wasn't even a memorial service. What it was was a number of speakers, including our president, speaking to the residents of Tucson, the people of Arizona and the citizens of the United States to help us all make sense of the events of the past week. Those who died, those who were injured and those who saved the lives of others were recognized.

I personally find nothing wrong in offering applause to those who were killed and injured and to the rescuers. To me it is a testament of respect and love for these people. And you also must remember-the thousands of citizens in the stands had no other way of expressing their feelings other than offering applause.

I don't know how many of you watched the funeral of Pope John Paul II, but the crowd, the hundreds of thousands who attended the open air service in St. Peter's Square, clapped and clapped for quite some period of time. And for those who did watch it-do you remember when the casket bearers began to return the pope's casket back into the Cathedral, the crowd demanded one last look at the pope. The casket bearers, with the approval of the church, turned around and lifted the casket one last time for the people. The audience again erupted in clapping and cheers in appreciation of the pope.

From Forum.Catholic.Com:

Applause that is meant to critique a performance is inappropriate at Mass because it gives the impression that the Mass is a performance offered to them for their approval rather than worship that is offered up to God for his glory. The clapping and shouts at John Paul II's funeral were not intended as approval for the homily or the Mass. They were intended as tribute to John Paul, the only and final tribute that those in the crowd were able to offer to someone they loved, admired, and believed to be a saint. Indeed, the media reported that clapping at a funeral is an Italian custom to salute the departed individual. Given all this, the clapping and shouts at John Paul II's funeral were not objectionable and need not have been stopped. Indeed, I read in Matthew Bunson's book We Have a Pope! that a very similar scene took place at the funeral of Pope Gregory the Great in the seventh century.

When a notable person passes away, how often have you seen people line the streets and when the hearse and motorcade pass, the people either salute or offer applause in appreciation, recognition and respect of the person’s life. I have seen it quite often.

Last night was neither a funeral nor a memorial service. Those events began today. Let the citizens of Tucson honor their dead in the manner they deserve during their funerals.

The outpouring of emotion at the Pope's funeral can not be compared to the calculated staging that went into the Presidents speech / campaigin rally.

[Tennesseer]

You can have an outpouring of emotion without applause too. My point was applause is not necessarily inappropriate with a large group of people (over 16,000 attendees) who have no other way of expressing their emotions or appreciation.

[deziloooooo]

Jan 15, 2011 12:49:10 GMT -5 Thinking-long-term said:

Jan 13, 2011 21:56:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Yesterday's event was not a funeral. It wasn't even a memorial service. What it was was a number of speakers, including our president, speaking to the residents of Tucson, the people of Arizona and the citizens of the United States to help us all make sense of the events of the past week. Those who died, those who were injured and those who saved the lives of others were recognized.

I personally find nothing wrong in offering applause to those who were killed and injured and to the rescuers. To me it is a testament of respect and love for these people. And you also must remember-the thousands of citizens in the stands had no other way of expressing their feelings other than offering applause.

I don't know how many of you watched the funeral of Pope John Paul II, but the crowd, the hundreds of thousands who attended the open air service in St. Peter's Square, clapped and clapped for quite some period of time. And for those who did watch it-do you remember when the casket bearers began to return the pope's casket back into the Cathedral, the crowd demanded one last look at the pope. The casket bearers, with the approval of the church, turned around and lifted the casket one last time for the people. The audience again erupted in clapping and cheers in appreciation of the pope.

From Forum.Catholic.Com:


When a notable person passes away, how often have you seen people line the streets and when the hearse and motorcade pass, the people either salute or offer applause in appreciation, recognition and respect of the person’s life. I have seen it quite often.

Last night was neither a funeral nor a memorial service. Those events began today. Let the citizens of Tucson honor their dead in the manner they deserve during their funerals.

The outpouring of emotion at the Pope's funeral can not be compared to the calculated staging that went into the Presidents speech / campaigin rally.

Calculated staging?? Musical tributes...opening benediction, readings from both the old and new testaments by distinguished guests, remarks by the President of the University were it was held, the service, then remarks by the President of the United States, which I assume you didn't care for.

Why I don't know but your right to feel that way.
No applause signs, no director of rah/rah like on TV shows...

Students in the audience, bit more boisterous in their applause , actually a natural occurence with young people , possible then taken up by the rest of the audience , the older folks and as has been suggested, a release of emotions that are natural after a whole week of traumatic deep felt horror for most, possible not you, again can't dictate how you act and feel.

One can't dictate to 14/16,000 people how they are going to act..spontaneouse when not pre arranged.

It's a shame, my opinion, that you didn't listen to the words spoken, 1 hour, 24 minutes and two seconds worth..words, music, applause and gotten anything from them , but again, that is your choice, your decision.

As I said some where else here.."Aint democracy great"

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 15:43:56 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Jan 15, 2011 12:49:10 GMT -5 Thinking-long-term said:

The outpouring of emotion at the Pope's funeral can not be compared to the calculated staging that went into the Presidents speech / campaigin rally.

Calculated staging?? Musical tributes...opening benediction, readings from both the old and new testaments by distinguished guests, remarks by the President of the University were it was held, the service, then remarks by the President of the United States, which I assume you didn't care for.

Why I don't know but your right to feel that way.
No applause signs, no director of rah/rah like on TV shows...

Students in the audience, bit more boisterous in their applause , actually a natural occurence with young people , possible then taken up by the rest of the audience , the older folks and as has been suggested, a release of emotions that are natural after a whole week of traumatic deep felt horror for most, possible not you, again can't dictate how you act and feel.

One can't dictate to 14/16,000 people how they are going to act..spontaneouse when not pre arranged.

It's a shame, my opinion, that you didn't listen to the words spoken, 1 hour, 24 minutes and two seconds worth..words, music, applause and gotten anything from them , but again, that is your choice, your decision.

As I said some where else here.."Aint democracy great"

A good speech writer plays the audience like a conductor directs an orchestra. A good orator knows how to change inflection and tone in order to enhance the words written.

I know it's a stretch to ask you to be objective but go back to his speech watch and pay attention the pauses are calculated. His writers knew exactly what they were doing and so did he.

This was a pep rally a political statement a way for Obama to pontificate and appear to take the high ground after suffering a loss at the ballot box.

[deziloooooo]

Give it a rest already Thinking. I am not going to get into a back and forth with you over this.
Speech writers? All politicos seem to have speech writers, and it seems that the speakers then take what is written and personalize it.

To be honest with you, and I heard most of his speech the first time and then played the whole ceremony , 1 hr 24 min and 2 seconds again and I felt when he was speaking that they were mostly his words , if not all , because I felt in some places a professional speech writer would have had a better choice of words and sentence construction.

Do you now want to analyze his speech with me and I will point those out and we can argue about it?

Some of the pauses were when the audience, mainly began with the students and then picked up by the non student audience . who rose and exclaimed vocifiously , moved by the words,so he paused . What was he to do, keep talking? he's given speechs before, he is a fine orator.

So you wearnt moved by the words. That really is your problem. You have a problem with him as your president? Again , your problem. In two years, since your mind is already made up or seems to be, you will have your chance to vote against the man. So be it.

For me, for most of the country, definitely for the 14/16,000 attending, not sure which number is correct , I believe his words struck a cord. I believe that Senator McCain , who was in the audience was moved by his words.

So all I am asking is give it a rest on the interpretation of the speech, planned, speech writers , not because I am asking it for my reasons. Because it is a disfavor to the , I believe , twenty innocents, six dead, including that young girl of nine, have to mention that , it stands out so much, the others who died. A husband , a wife, together fifty years, what a tragic loss. A man who shielded his wife who was wounded, second marriage for both , were old boy frind and girl friend when young, went on to marry others and when widowed, got back together, what a nice story. He saved her life, in the process he gave his for hers.
The congresswoman's aid, who was to be married next month, only thirty, his life ahead of him, never to be fulfilled leaving parenmts a fiancee , how long for her to recover. The Federal Judge who was gunned down, forty years of good service to his country, his State. Gone in a second, his payoff.
The fourteen others who are in different stages of recovery, hopefully all will do so, one who lost his leg because of the wound.

Your criticism of the details of the president speech and the ceremony, to me , is a dishonor to these victims and those who risked their lives in bringing the man down and those who were just witness to this event that will stay with many as a horrible experience for the rest of their lives.

Any criticism of the presidents speech to me is to bring dishonor to all those I mentioned, so for that reason, not a personal one, I ask, please, give it a rest.

Thank you, I am sure you understand and I appreciate it.

[burnsattornincan]

dezi, if you're trying to call me out as being the "opposite party" and that's why I was offended, then you are sadly misguided. I hope you're not calling me out solely because I disagree with you.

This seems to be a pattern with Mr. deziloooooo. Anyone with a different opinion will get a long winded blather of a negative response whether the post was directed at him or not. I'm only pointing this out because he has decided to step up and play with the big boys, namely myself. So I will continue to point out his provocative and self righteous behavior until I get tired of doing so.

Dalton McGuinty Burns III

[deziloooooo]

Jan 15, 2011 19:17:50 GMT -5 burnsattornincan said:

dezi, if you're trying to call me out as being the "opposite party" and that's why I was offended, then you are sadly misguided. I hope you're not calling me out solely because I disagree with you.

This seems to be a pattern with Mr. deziloooooo. Anyone with a different opinion will get a long winded blather of a negative response whether the post was directed at him or not. I'm only pointing this out because he has decided to step up and play with the big boys, namely myself. So I will continue to point out his provocative and self righteous behavior until I get tired of doing so.

Dalton McGuinty Burns III

I have no idea who the

"f you're trying to call me out as being the "opposite party" and that's why I was offended, then you are sadly misguided. I hope you're not calling me out solely because I disagree with you"

was but I believe I answered that along time ago and since I don't think there was a response I am assuming they were satisfied with my answer, possible not agreeing but satisfied, so why it's been resurrected by another, I haven't a clue except the one who resurrected it has a agenda , to disrupt for disruption purposes. That I know and hopefully a few others are getting the mans agenda and his purpose here too.
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"long winded blather " If he is referring to my post in response to "Thinking long..."It was a explanation in response to his thoughts with my take of it. Long? Yes..how do you cut such a tragedy and the results to a sound Byte, and if to long for some, sorry, it is still a emotional moment/event to me, possible not to the one bringing it up.
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"play with the big boys, " thats the second time he has mentioned that, haven't a clue what he means beyond the fact its been decades since I was a "boy " to my regret to be honest with you, what I wouldn't give to be a ... oh well{sigh}

[steff]

So okay, some folks have a problem with the applause during the Presidents part of the memorial service. What about the applause during the former & current Govn's speeches? The applause during the intern who saved the Congresswoman's life? The applause during recognizing the hero's who helped take down the gunman? And how should the crowd have been told to react/told to be silent or were they also expressing their right to free speech in that moment?

[deziloooooo]

Steff hoping the whole arument just goes away. Your correct but I like to think it's just something most of us aren't familier with, memorial service, service to honor those who were victems but also those who are recovering, to honor those who took down the perpetrator of the act. Not a daily occurence for most of us.

Lets just say, or I am saying, we were uncomfortable as to the proper action to take and not looking to diss anyone. All I did was point out a few things I observed and my explanation of..personally, not trying to make points with anyone.

Just my thoughts on the whole thing.

PS. Just had a thought..the supposedly rowdeness of the crowd.

I just remembered, when my daughter graduated High School, she is in her early 40's, I was expecting what I always saw at those things. Mine, my sons a few years earlier. "Pomp and Cercumstances " somberly played , a statly march down in neat Caps and Gowns to their seats and a dignified walk to the podium for their diploma and handshake.

They marched all right..to the saints coming in..school band..boogying, many in shorts under the gowns . caps all decorated, tassels on the ear, screaming love "Ya Mom, Dad, thanks for everything etc, etc." ...times change, that was 20 years ago, been to a few since, no sweat, expect it. If I ever hear Pomp and Cercumstances again , then I'll worry and be shocked.

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 20:12:15 GMT -5 steff said:

So okay, some folks have a problem with the applause during the Presidents part of the memorial service. What about the applause during the former & current Govn's speeches? The applause during the intern who saved the Congresswoman's life? The applause during recognizing the hero's who helped take down the gunman? And how should the crowd have been told to react/told to be silent or were they also expressing their right to free speech in that moment?

As I originally posted I found the Applause Inappropriate for a memorial service you may apply that criticism in a bipartisan fashion to all.
It was those of you on the left who jumped to the conclusion that my criticism was directed towards Obama.
I still stand by my analysis of political pontificating.

[deziloooooo]

ok

[lakhota]

Jon Stewart Blasts Fox News Over Tucson Memorial Coverage

tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/jon-stewart-blasts-fox-news-over-tucson-memorial-coverage.php?ref=fpb

[steff]

Sorry, I didn't jump to any conclusions, I asked a question. So then you felt recognizing the heros who took down the gunman & helped save the Congresswoman's life offensive.

Should the heros not have been mentioned at all or recognized by those attending? Would it have been better if the audience had been told not to respond at all? Wouldn't that also have been taking away their right to free speech?

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 20:47:35 GMT -5 steff said:

Sorry, I didn't jump to any conclusions, I asked a question. So then you felt recognizing the heros who took down the gunman & helped save the Congresswoman's life offensive.

Should the heros not have been mentioned at all or recognized by those attending? Would it have been better if the audience had been told not to respond at all? Wouldn't that also have been taking away their right to free speech?

I think those who took action deserve recognition yes, but feel that it should have been separate not at the memorial service for those that were killed.

I don't understand your attempt to link the right to free speech with anything I have posted.

And now upon reviewing the text of the speech for a third time I do take exception with the attempted connection of the political discourse in this country with the actions of a madman.

[deziloooooo]

[steff]

It should be noted (again) that not all memorial services are somber and reserved. It's not uncommon for humorous stories to be told about those being remembered, moments of their lives celebrated. Every individual celebrates life and mourns differently. There is no one set 'acceptable' way.

IMO, the recognition of the heros was appropriate and well deserved. In the setting, applause was the audiences way of expressing themselves and honoring both the victims & the heros.

[steff]

As far as having a separate gathering to honor the heros, I can't help but think of the expense. For the college, for the security, for the politicians. This was a way to encompass the rememberance for the victims, honoring the heros, and letting the city/college/citizens come together after a horrible tragedy.

[Thinking-long-term]

We should be civil because we want to live up to the example of public servants like John Roll and Gabby Giffords, who knew first and foremost that we are all Americans, and that we can question each other's ideas without questioning each other's love of country and that our task, working together, is to constantly widen the circle of our concern so that we bequeath the American Dream to future generations.

They believed -- they believed, and I believe that we can be better. Those who died here, those who saved life here -- they help me believe. We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another, that's entirely up to us.
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I guess I interpret this differently than those of you on the Left.

[steff]

Sorry, but I'm not trying to pick apart the memorial service speaker by speaker. I'm looking at the entire service overall. The applause and "loud" responses weren't reserved for ONLY during the Presidents part of the memorial service, it happened throughtout the entire service and with ALL the speakers. .

[steff]

I do happen to agree with the sentiment that just because we all may have political differences and different beliefs that it doesn't make anyone less patriotic or less of an American because of those differences.

[deziloooooo]

repost...why not let it go. What more is there to say??
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Steff hoping the whole argument just goes away. Your correct but I like to think it's just something most of us aren't familier with, memorial service, service to honor those who were victems but also those who are recovering, to honor those who took down the perpetrator of the act. Not a daily occurence for most of us.

Lets just say, or I am saying, we were uncomfortable as to the proper action to take and not looking to diss anyone. All I did was point out a few things I observed and my explanation of..personally, not trying to make points with anyone.

Just my thoughts on the whole thing

[steff]

Sorry desi, but I feel like saying something about this still. there is always the option of not responding to it if you feel like you want it to end. But some of us still wish to discuss it.

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 21:46:06 GMT -5 steff said:

Sorry, but I'm not trying to pick apart the memorial service speaker by speaker. I'm looking at the entire service overall. The applause and "loud" responses weren't reserved for ONLY during the Presidents part of the memorial service, it happened throughtout the entire service and with ALL the speakers. .

And I addressed that not condoning it along political lines it was you on the Left that put the partisan spin on it.

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 21:48:03 GMT -5 steff said:

I do happen to agree with the sentiment that just because we all may have political differences and different beliefs that it doesn't make anyone less patriotic or less of an American because of those differences.

Heard it all before dissent was patriotic when Bush was in office now if you dissent you are a racist.

Spare me the false indignation.