Limbaugh: Loughner Has 'Full Support' Of Dem Party

[Loopdilou]

Good for her. I think owning a gun is an issue of fear. It is true that a 100lb woman is less powerful than a 200lb attacker, but if you're careful your chances of ever being in a situation where you would require a gun are slim to none and do not warrant a country full of gun owners.

Now please justify a 200lb male owning a gun... your arguments get pretty weak.

[Loopdilou]

Jan 15, 2011 15:59:02 GMT -5 vonnie6200 said:

Jan 15, 2011 15:50:09 GMT -5 Loopdilou said:

Not really. It's called reflex triggered by snap decisions fueled by essentially looking for anything that could be assault (hence the term paranoid).

Sorry, but I've been a gun owner for over 40 yrs., and occas. carry a weapon (I also carried professionally for 20 yr.s) and I have not shot anyone yet.

I am a woman but not a paranoid woman.

If you carried professionally for 20 years the reflex has been tendered with wisdom.

[humok]

Defend the right for a 200lb man to own a gun?? OK if he is not a violent felon he has the right according to the second amendment to own a gun!!!! Is that clear enough.

[robinking]

Jan 15, 2011 16:23:51 GMT -5 Loopdilou said:

Good for her. I think owning a gun is an issue of fear. It is true that a 100lb woman is less powerful than a 200lb attacker, but if you're careful your chances of ever being in a situation where you would require a gun are slim to none and do not warrant a country full of gun owners.

Now please justify a 200lb male owning a gun... your arguments get pretty weak.

Again, this is your opinion. I'm a 212lb man and in great shape. I run 20 miles a week and lift weights. But, if I were confronted by a 100lb woman with a gun, I'd be defenseless. So, I choose to exercise my 2nd Amendment right. I drive to the casinos in Detroit at night on occasion. If my car breaks down, I want protection. This isn't out of fear, but rather self preservation. Fear is only invoked when under attack. Irrational fear is when one feels they are always under attack. If I have to walk to a store for gas in Detroit at night, I feel better knowing I have a gun. Will this gun prevent someone from taking my life, wealth or other? Nope, but it sure makes this outcome less likely. People with similar views as you would limit my freedom to be secure.

[humok]

I might add it is the individual states that put the restrictions on an individual owning a gun as per what crimes if any they have been found guilty of and the constitutional amendment makes no mention of any restrictions but I personally do not think any violent criminal should be able to own a gun.

[vonnie6200]

If you carried professionally for 20 years the reflex has been tendered with wisdom.

Yes it has - but I was a woman with a gun for several years before that position - the topic was actually brought up in the hiring interview.

I think owning a gun is an issue of fear

Or maybe a well thought out response to real life scenarios - for instance - I don't walk down dark alleys (anymore) and I try to always remain cognizant of my surroundings - but sometimes bad things happen to good people and I am finding more and more that homes are broken into in my neighborhood (which is decent and populated with law enforcement) - and also rather wealthy neighborhoods around town. There have been several murders in town of older - not elderly but older - females that were home alone when their house was broken into and were subsequently killed. Also around town - and I do not believe this to be just a local phenomenon - there are more and more armed robberies of business during business hours with customers, some too close to home.

I am not paranoid, but I will protect myself and I have felt this way for the last 40 years or better.

[formerexpat]

Which is why I make intelligent decisions about how I act, dress, and where (and when) I go

[/size]

Because a woman who gets raped while wearing a low cut shirt deserves it?

Your decisions are only intelligent until you're in a position that almost anyone can accidentally be in, yourself included. Then, you're just like everyone else that was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Loopdilou]

Of course wrong place, wrong time, shit happens. But if anything you should be more afraid of getting in a car accident than being the victim of a violent crime:

16,272 people were murdered in the US compared to 37,261 people killed in motor vehicle crashes.

834,885 people were the victims of aggravated assault in the US compared to 2,346,000 people who were injured in motor vehicle crashes.

There were an estimated 5.4 murders per 100,000 inhabitants compared to 12.25 motor vehicle fatalities per 100,000 inhabitants in 2008.

774 murder victims were under the age of 18 compared to 1,347 children aged 14 and under killed in motor vehicle crashes.

In 2008, a person was murdered approximately every 32.3 minutes in the US compared to a person dying on the road every 14 minutes.

In 2008, speeding was a contributing factor in 31 percent of all fatal crashes, and 11,674 lives were lost in speeding-related crashes.

In 2008, there were 11,773 alcohol-impaired-driving fatalities.

(http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Comparison-of-the-Violent-Crime-Rate-Vs-The-Vehicle-Fatality-Rate-in-the-US&id=4165730)

I still don't see the need to drive a tank onto a freeway

Seriously though, what exactly are you people protecting yourselves from? Even in big cities I'd rather not carry a gun, because even in big cities I am statistically more likely to get in a car accident than I am to be a victim of a violent crime. You're all paranoid and you just refuse to admit it.

Regardless - I don't want to take away your right to own a gun, I want to take away your right to own a gun without without REGULATION! As per the Constitution.

And no - a woman who gets raped while wearing a low cut shit DOES NOT DESERVE GETTING RAPED!! It, however, does increase the statistical probability of getting raped. Don't be obtuse

[vonnie6200]

So is your point that because cars are dangerous and people get hurt or killed - I should not prepare for other contingencies?

I actually also wear a seat belt and practice defensive driving.

[robinking]

You lose the argument, so then you shift it to car accidents? Wow! That's called spin!

[vonnie6200]

And I watch my diet and my budget and stay out of debt.

I think an adult can protect themselves on numerous fronts and I try to do so.

I am aware that life has a way of sneaking up on a person and there are numerous other things that could get to me - but where I can protect myself, I do.

[robinking]

By extension of your logic, should we put a governor on all cars that restricts their speed to 30MPH?

[Loopdilou]

You're missing my point.

One is never safe. One does not need to live as if one is always going to die/get injured. One does NOT NEED a gun.

All I'm trying to point out is that if you live your life believing you need a gun to stay safe in the United States of America, then you are afraid. Is it common sense in some scenarios? Maybe. I choose not to carry a gun and I will vehemently argue against the idea that they are "necessary" until the day I die.

But then I also believe there are better ways to make our streets safer than carrying around handguns. Gun owners tend to leap to gun ownership first and common sense policy/social programs/education second. Not all, I mean.. some Democrats own guns too

[formerexpat]

But if anything you should be more afraid of getting in a car accident than being the victim of a violent crime:

[/size]

I'm concerned but I hope you don't want to take away my right to wear a seat belt since that is one of the protections I use when I'm in the car

Regardless - I don't want to take away your right to own a gun, I want to take away your right to own a gun without without REGULATION! As per the Constitution.

[/size]

Your interpretation and usage of both regulate and militia are for convenience sake only to push your view.

There are a number of cases that have specifically stated that the states over the federal government have the right to regulate. The federal government has limited power [Presser v Illionois & US v Miller, for example].

Madison is largely considered the father of the Constitution. Reading his proposal leave little doubt that gun ownership was considered an individual right. www.usconstitution.net/madisonbor.html

If, as you say, violent crime is statistically insignificant, then why are you worrying about gun laws instead of car safety?

[robinking]

It's absolutely pointless to debate you, as you are just looking to argue. You quote part of the 2nd Amendment and when called out, you focus on a comma??? Then you call people who choose to carry a gun, scared and insinuate they're stupid. Then you say you believe in their right, but question their motive. Then you argue how unsafe cars are com[pared to guns. WOW! To me, you're just another elitist looking for the justification to limit my freedom. You can't stand on your arguments, so you shift them to other, non-salient points. I'm done here for tonight. Good night all.

[vonnie6200]

All I'm trying to point out is that if you live your life believing you need a gun to stay safe in the United States of America, then you are afraid. Is it common sense in some scenarios? Maybe. I choose not to carry a gun and I will vehemently argue against the idea that they are "necessary" until the day I die.


My point is that there are times a gun will not only make you safer but may very well save the lives of others.

I realize that this is a what if argument, but If there had been an armed civilian in that crowd - very likely there would have been fewer casualties, including the little girl

(my understanding here is that the armed civilian that responded was in the store and did not pull his weapon because it was no longer appropriate in the situation)


Sadly, sometimes, in some places and for some people in America, a gun would make the difference in their survival

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 16:23:51 GMT -5 Loopdilou said:

Good for her. I think owning a gun is an issue of fear. It is true that a 100lb woman is less powerful than a 200lb attacker, but if you're careful your chances of ever being in a situation where you would require a gun are slim to none and do not warrant a country full of gun owners.

Now please justify a 200lb male owning a gun... your arguments get pretty weak.

Two 200lb men, or one 100 pound man with a knife, Gun, Bat ETC.

[Loopdilou]

I worry about both. Cars require a training, tests, and a license. Guns require a background check... then you get to keep the gun forever and ever Meanwhile, we've got American guns getting shipped to other countries and then shipped back in the hands of criminals. Why not regulate gun sales to other countries? I'm pretty sure the Federal Government DOES have power over that.

Madison may have been the "father" of the Constitution, but frankly I could care less about what was proposed compared to what is actually written. I've read the 2nd Amendant backwards and forwards and up and down, and I still believe that the right of the individual is a subordinate clause to the well regulated militia.

The Constitution can be wildly interpreted, I totally agree, but I think it's fair to say that we, as Americans, don't always have to agree with what our Supreme Court decides.

[Loopdilou]

Jan 15, 2011 18:14:20 GMT -5 vonnie6200 said:

All I'm trying to point out is that if you live your life believing you need a gun to stay safe in the United States of America, then you are afraid. Is it common sense in some scenarios? Maybe. I choose not to carry a gun and I will vehemently argue against the idea that they are "necessary" until the day I die.


My point is that there are times a gun will not only make you safer but may very well save the lives of others.

I realize that this is a what if argument, but If there had been an armed civilian in that crowd - very likely there would have been fewer casualties, including the little girl

(my understanding here is that the armed civilian that responded was in the store and did not pull his weapon because it was no longer appropriate in the situation)


Sadly, sometimes, in some places and for some people in America, a gun would make the difference in their survival

It may have stopped one or two casualties, but the guy had a gun that could be shot with such speed that he would still have shot numerous people before the second armed person could respond, and, in a crowd, could very well have caused more casualties. Tackling the guy was probably the best way to go.

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 18:14:20 GMT -5 vonnie6200 said:

All I'm trying to point out is that if you live your life believing you need a gun to stay safe in the United States of America, then you are afraid. Is it common sense in some scenarios? Maybe. I choose not to carry a gun and I will vehemently argue against the idea that they are "necessary" until the day I die.


My point is that there are times a gun will not only make you safer but may very well save the lives of others.

I realize that this is a what if argument, but If there had been an armed civilian in that crowd - very likely there would have been fewer casualties, including the little girl

(my understanding here is that the armed civilian that responded was in the store and did not pull his weapon because it was no longer appropriate in the situation)


Sadly, sometimes, in some places and for some people in America, a gun would make the difference in their survival

Even in the best of neighborhoods.

[vonnie6200]

Guns require a background check... then you get to keep the gun forever and ever

That depends completely on where you live and whether or not you choose to obey the law, there are numerous drivers on the road that have lost or never had a license, do not buy insurance and maybe even are not legal residents of this country and might not be able to speak English or read traffic signs - it does not keep them off our roads

[vonnie6200]

Tackling the guy was probably the best way to go.

It was perfect = after he ran thru his clip and had to reload - an armed citizen might, just might have taken him out before he emptied his first 30 round clip

[Loopdilou]

You do know that Traffic Signs don't require the ability to read English, right?

And it may not keep them off the road forever, but it sure as hell does a better job than a pat on the head and a "here you go".

Anyway, I'm done arguing (for now). This is definitely one of those issues where some people believe one thing and others believe another thing and there really will never be any convincing of either side.

Plus.. it's Saturday and I've got Christmas stuff to put away

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 18:17:43 GMT -5 Loopdilou said:

I worry about both. Cars require a training, tests, and a license. Guns require a background check... then you get to keep the gun forever and ever quote]

I'll give you the training if you make the commitment to carry you should make the commitment to not be a danger to others if you employ your weapon. Whether or not that training should be Government regulated or not is another story.
As for the rest of your post it seems that it's just the Liberal talking points regurgitated yet again.

[Loopdilou]

Jan 15, 2011 18:29:02 GMT -5 Thinking-long-term said:

Jan 15, 2011 18:17:43 GMT -5 Loopdilou said:

I worry about both. Cars require a training, tests, and a license. Guns require a background check... then you get to keep the gun forever and ever quote]

I'll give you the training if you make the commitment to carry you should make the commitment to not be a danger to others if you employ your weapon. Whether or not that training should be Government regulated or not is another story.
As for the rest of your post it seems that it's just the Liberal talking points regurgitated yet again.

Unlike what all of you are saying? Those aren't Conservative talking points at ALL. Nope. Not at all.

Just because I say something liberal, doesn't mean I haven't thought about this and it NEVER calls for being dismissed just because you disagree. Be polite.

DAMNIT PEOPLE! STOP SUCKING ME IN!!! *vacuum sound*

[vonnie6200]

pm »

You do know that Traffic Signs don't require the ability to read English, right?

Duh - red, octagon - but you do have to actually care about and obey the law

[Loopdilou]

I'm just saying that going to the illegal immigrant non-English speakers direction.. just...

Yah, I'm dropping it. Try to really examine your prejudices though.

[vonnie6200]

DAMNIT PEOPLE! STOP SUCKING ME IN!!! *vacuum sound*



Sorry - I believe that most people that know and get comfortable with guns have a very different reaction to them than to people for whom they are an unknown.

A gun - like a vehicle (which MADD claims is a loaded weapon) is a very useful tool, but one which can produce tragic results if not handled both knowledgeably and responsibly

Oh yes - just because I am evil - I would throw in to the mix chain saws (something I am actually afraid of)

[Thinking-long-term]

Jan 15, 2011 18:32:35 GMT -5 Loopdilou said:

Jan 15, 2011 18:29:02 GMT -5 Thinking-long-term said:

Jan 15, 2011 18:17:43 GMT -5 Loopdilou said:

I worry about both. Cars require a training, tests, and a license. Guns require a background check... then you get to keep the gun forever and ever quote]

I'll give you the training if you make the commitment to carry you should make the commitment to not be a danger to others if you employ your weapon. Whether or not that training should be Government regulated or not is another story.
As for the rest of your post it seems that it's just the Liberal talking points regurgitated yet again.

Unlike what all of you are saying? Those aren't Conservative talking points at ALL. Nope. Not at all.

Just because I say something liberal, doesn't mean I haven't thought about this and it NEVER calls for being dismissed just because you disagree. Be polite.

DAMNIT PEOPLE! STOP SUCKING ME IN!!! *vacuum sound*

It's not just me that disagrees with your views on the Second Amendment but 200 plus years of Judicial review including a recent landmark ruling by the highest court in the land as well.

[Loopdilou]

They are not an unknown to me. I have shot guns. The difference between a car, and a chain saw, and a gun.. is that only two of the three are not built for the purpose of killing.

One is. I have a fundamental problem with that. *shrug*