What I learned at the auto garage today

[Opti]

I learned quite a bit about car repairs, diagnostics, etc. as I talked to
an independent garage owner while getting my car fixed. It explains a bit
as to why car repairs can become so expensive and perhaps why the repair costs gulf between common and uncommon cars may continue to rise.

He said there are about 500 sensors in many cars today and when replacing a part say a steering wheel sensor, the total time for the repair
may be mostly the time it takes to get the sensors software in sync with
the rest of the car. He deals mostly with Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche
but he does other work. (He sent a guy out to a Dodge,Chrysler, Jeep
dealer for parts while I was there.)Oh, the example with the steering wheel
sensor he had a incident where it took 6 hours on-line to get the sensor
software to sync up.

He spends $300K/year on software so he can repair cars. Unfortunately
I found out that BMW up revs all their software which means more time
on-line and hence more cost. Right now Mercedes does it more like a
consumer would, it down revs the software so if the software version of
the sensor put in is higher than all versions in the car, the software version
will adjust down which is much cheaper than the time needed to make
all the software in the car match the new software level of the new
component.

He also pointed out the weaknesses of the OBD II (hope I got that right)
error messages used by generic scanners. A generic scanner might tell
you "cylinder one misfired" but it will give you no other clues. A manufacturer specific scanner will give you an error message usually that
allows you to skip time running through all the possibilities of what's causing the cylinder misfire and hence why to fix it.

I thought this was interesting. Hope some other posters might as well.

[jennml]

I wish I knew more about cars and car repairs. I always feel like I'm getting bamboozled when I have to take my car to any mechanic. Especially when I mention what I paid to anyone of the male persuasion and they immediately say "That's way too expensive. You could've done it yourself." ummm, no I couldn't have without someone teaching me first.

Someday, I want to take a class or something.

[kinetickid]

Jan 7, 2011 13:08:38 GMT -5 @jennml said:

I wish I knew more about cars and car repairs. I always feel like I'm getting bamboozled when I have to take my car to any mechanic. Especially when I mention what I paid to anyone of the male persuasion and they immediately say "That's way too expensive. You could've done it yourself." ummm, no I couldn't have without someone teaching me first.

Someday, I want to take a class or something.

I'm fairly comfortable with cars and car repairs--if you care for a list of things I've fixed myself, I'll happily provide it--but I did NOT learn from anyone. In fact, my father is a sexist d-bag who wouldn't think to teach us daughters anything about cars.

Nonetheless, I figured I was a smart gal and decided not to let the fact that I have a vagina keep me ignorant on car-related matters.

When I got my first car, I just did the maintenance myself. Seriously. I got a Haynes manual--Chilton also offers one--specific to my car and attempted every repair or maintenance issue that came up (nothing like re-boring cylinders or rebuilding a transmission or anything, but I did replace an alternator, replace a driver's side door window, change my brake pads, and more).

In our family, I'm definitely the one who's in charge of the car, NOT my husband. For example, we had some rusty water spots on the hood of our car--a result of an old, leaky pipe above our parking spot in the garage. Hubby wanted to use CLR on it! Seriously. That was his idea for removing them.

Me? I used a clay kit and rubbing compound. With a little bit o' elbow grease, I removed all the spots--including some off the roof of the car that we hadn't noticed (oh, and then I gave the car a good wax job). Now you can't even tell all those ugly spots were even there. The paint looks good as new!

[Opti]

Kinetic Kid, That's great. I know some things but I'm more interested in
driving a car to its limits than working on one.

[jennml]

Jan 7, 2011 13:48:47 GMT -5 @kinetickid said:

Nonetheless, I figured I was a smart gal and decided not to let the fact that I have a vagina keep me ignorant on car-related matters.

I agree. I have learned alot since getting my first car. I've installed a new side-view mirror, learned the importance of topping off all my fluids, such as anti-freeze, etc.

I guess it's more of a complaint about the fact that, even if I knew more, cars nowadays are made up of so many sensors and computerized parts I'd still have to take it to a garage and trust that they aren't trying to screw me over. Not to mention, how labor intensive some repairs are when you do them yourself vs taking the car to a garage that has lifts and tools to do things fast. Example: I know and have changed my tires when I've gotten a flat. But it was the mission of an hour plus to get it done (partly because the bolts were put in so tight by the machine the garages use that I had to literally jump up and down on the wrench thing to loosen them).

I suppose it would help if I read the manual for my car.

[kinetickid]

Jan 7, 2011 14:10:37 GMT -5 @jennml said:

Jan 7, 2011 13:48:47 GMT -5 @kinetickid said:

Nonetheless, I figured I was a smart gal and decided not to let the fact that I have a vagina keep me ignorant on car-related matters.

I agree. I have learned alot since getting my first car. I've installed a new side-view mirror, learned the importance of topping off all my fluids, such as anti-freeze, etc.

I guess it's more of a complaint about the fact that, even if I knew more, cars nowadays are made up of so many sensors and computerized parts I'd still have to take it to a garage and trust that they aren't trying to screw me over. Not to mention, how labor intensive some repairs are when you do them yourself vs taking the car to a garage that has lifts and tools to do things fast. Example: I know and have changed my tires when I've gotten a flat. But it was the mission of an hour plus to get it done (partly because the bolts were put in so tight by the machine the garages use that I had to literally jump up and down on the wrench thing to loosen them).

I suppose it would help if I read the manual for my car.

Even if you don't do all the work yourself, knowledge of how your car works goes a long a way in preventing you from getting ripped off at a garage. You're capable of making an informed decision regarding who should do a repair (in our case, that means I usually decide between the dealership, our unaffiliated mechanic, or doing it myself) and how it should be done. You can also have a rough idea of the cost of a repair before going into a shop.

Knowledge is power!

[8 Bit WWBG]

Hell yeah cars are computers now. A lot of the older guys from the muscle car era get really frustrated about how difficult it can be to work on cars now.

...:::"I found out that BMW up revs":::...

Very interesting, and yes -- stinks for the consumer. I'd hate to have to change everything to match the new piece instead of the new piece adjusting itself to match everything else.

Indeed, I'm sure the manufacturers have a very vested interest in preventing standardization. Its much more money for them to make garage owners and dealers pay through the nose for one specific piece of equipment.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

The best thing to do is to form a long term relationship with your car mechanic. I prefer going to independent garages, getting to know the guy's name, sending a Christmas/holiday card, maybe a bottle of wine, etc.

Think of your car mechanic in the same way as your hairstylist or the person who does your nails.

Back in the early 90s, I had a GM car where the head gasket went. The mechanic I was going to looked at it and told me the problem. He went on to tell me that this was a know problem on Pontiac's and that Pontiac was fixing this problem for free. Sure enough I inquired about it, and they did the repairs for me under warranty.
My mechanic was Portuguese, so I went to the liquor store and bought the most expensive bottle of Portuguese wine I could find. I also worked for a cookie company at the time and got him about a dozen boxes of cookies for his kids.

[pushingit]

If we didn't live in the north, we're drive classic cars as daily drivers every day. No sensors, no computers. Pretty easy to rebuild a carb or even the whole engine if necessary.

While some of the safety features on newer cars are great, like airbags and anti-lock brakes, as well as how they're constructed to crumple around a body and all that, I wonder if all the newer bells and whistles are really worth it.

My husband just had to have an oil pan replaced on his truck, which is a 2000, he had one replaced on his other truck last year. The garage told him they're only made to last 8-10 years these days because that's the average useful life of today's cars. His '68 Chevelle and '70 El Camino both have the original oil pans on them. Hmmm.

Editing to add: The part was $180, the labor, $600. Ouch!

[jennml]

Jan 7, 2011 15:12:50 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

The best thing to do is to form a long term relationship with your car mechanic. I prefer going to independent garages, getting to know the guy's name, sending a Christmas/holiday card, maybe a bottle of wine, etc.

I can see the wisdom in this. The problem is mechanics already assume you're a car idiot and easy mark just because you're a woman. Hard to form a positive professional relationship when they're patronizing you. I do have a mechanic that I sort of depend on. But I've caught him a few times trying to get one over on me. Sadly, he's just down the block from my job so the convenience outweighs the annoyance. But the relationship has improved a lot since I threatened to him when he lied to me about replacing some belts.

[kinetickid]

Jan 7, 2011 15:07:19 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

Hell yeah cars are computers now. A lot of the older guys from the muscle car era get really frustrated about how difficult it can be to work on cars now.

Yeah. Even changing a battery--one of the easiest DIY items for years--can be a headache in a new, high-end car. Now you have to make sure your car/computer is hooked up to an alternative power supply--analogous to a heart-lung bypass machine--before you can disconnect your old battery.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty good with mechanical things but I feel like an idiot when I look under the hood of a car. So much is computerized, anyway. Fortunately, we have a mechanic we trust, so if they say something needs to get done, we get it done. We also have a car that's reliable to begin with.

One thing that has helped me is NPR's "Click and Clack" radio podcast. I LOVE those guys! For those of you who haven't heard of them, they run a radio call-in show from Cambridge, MA and they're smart and hilarious. They get all kinds- people who know how to hack into the computer of their Mercedes and people who have driven a car with no oil in it and fried the engine. They make fun of them all, but they always have a good potential solution and they explain things clearly. I've learned a lot from them-not enough that I feel like doing my own repairs, but at least enough to sort out the bozos among the mechanics I deal with.

[jennml]

Jan 7, 2011 15:41:37 GMT -5 @kinetickid said:

Jan 7, 2011 15:07:19 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

Hell yeah cars are computers now. A lot of the older guys from the muscle car era get really frustrated about how difficult it can be to work on cars now.

Yeah. Even changing a battery--one of the easiest DIY items for years--can be a headache in a new, high-end car. Now you have to make sure your car/computer is hooked up to an alternative power supply--analogous to a heart-lung bypass machine--before you can disconnect your old battery.

No way!!! Not so sure I want a new car ever now

[bean29]

I told my DH not to buy that BMW. He loves it I hate it.

My DS agrees with me, it is not a comfortable, convenient enjoyable car to drive. DH loves his car. Personally I think it is a status symbol for him.

[domeasingold]

I totally agree with all of you. Growing up in the 60's I had many cars I could work on myself because I wanted to. Now they just amaze me. Also I am still what you may call a "gearhead" because I still appreciate the cars of my youth. I have owned mostly "muscle cars" except in the 80's because there were none. I am dying to find an old Corvette. Pre-1973. Unfortunately,the stock market has not cooperated the last few years so that is out. Anyway there are simple ways to deal with car problems. First thing is to ask for help. Usually a bit of advise from some old guy like me will go a long way to solving a problem.

[Opti]

Jan 7, 2011 16:31:42 GMT -5 bean29 said:

I told my DH not to buy that BMW. He loves it I hate it.

My DS agrees with me, it is not a comfortable, convenient enjoyable car to drive. DH loves his car. Personally I think it is a status symbol for him.

I don't know about your DH but many drive BMWs because of how they drive. The average person seems to think luxury car means smooth ride
like a Cadillac but luxury is more about price point and sometimes amenities. Porsche, BMW, some Mercedes are tuned more for a sport/track feel so you do feel far more bumps in the road compared to
an average car. People who like to feel the road and have a car that handles well often love these cars; people who want a plush ride hate them. FYI, when you see sport in any car's designation its usually tuned for more of a track experience, i.e. harsher ride.

[Opti]

"The garage told him they're only made to last 8-10 years these days because that's the average useful life of today's cars."



I miss the older easy to work on cars too. It seemed there were more
things you could jerry-rig if you had to and overall less significant things
went wrong.

[kinetickid]

Jan 7, 2011 22:31:10 GMT -5 Opti said:

"The garage told him they're only made to last 8-10 years these days because that's the average useful life of today's cars."



I miss the older easy to work on cars too. It seemed there were more
things you could jerry-rig if you had to and overall less significant things
went wrong.

I disagree. Cars last longer today than ever before, though the required maintenance on newer cars exceeds that required of older cars (and much of it can't be done at home). Nowadays, it's nothing to get 200,000 miles on a car; a car 20 or 30 years ago was over the hill at 80,000 miles.

[kinetickid]

Jan 7, 2011 22:31:10 GMT -5 Opti said:

"The garage told him they're only made to last 8-10 years these days because that's the average useful life of today's cars."



I miss the older easy to work on cars too. It seemed there were more
things you could jerry-rig if you had to and overall less significant things
went wrong.

To read:
articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/CarsThatLastAMillionMiles.aspx

[Opti]

Jan 7, 2011 22:43:09 GMT -5 @kinetickid said:

Jan 7, 2011 22:31:10 GMT -5 Opti said:

"The garage told him they're only made to last 8-10 years these days because that's the average useful life of today's cars."



I miss the older easy to work on cars too. It seemed there were more
things you could jerry-rig if you had to and overall less significant things
went wrong.

I disagree. Cars last longer today than ever before, though the required maintenance on newer cars exceeds that required of older cars (and much of it can't be done at home). Nowadays, it's nothing to get 200,000 miles on a car; a car 20 or 30 years ago was over the hill at 80,000 miles.

The top quote was from another poster. I put those emotes in since I think
its sad manufacturers are planning for things to fail when the car is 8 to 10 years old. Maintenance costs seem to be one of the biggest reasons people cars before they are at that 200K mark. More people report
cars getting to 200K now, I'm not convinced 20 years ago the ability to
get there was less likely. Mercedes used to have the reputation of going for 200-250K miles and that's been erased in recent years. Some American cars have improved.

[wvugurl26]

Batteries can be a major pain in newer cars. Back in 2007 I had a coworker get a new battery and then she needed to put a code in that of course only the dealer had so the radio would work again. Some sort of anti theft thing that was a big pain in the ass bc of course no dealer just wants to give you the code.
My brother's going to get around to doing my spark plugs one of these days so I need to see if my car has one of those codes. You have to pull the battery to get to the spark plugs. The maintenace guide has 1 sentence about them that says they are a pain in the ass have a dealer do it.
I'm on trip #3 back about my tires. I had a new wheel put on and while it was supposed to include the little tire pressure monitoring thingy apparently it isn't working. So now I need to go back and get them to yank it off the old one and swap them.

[TD2K]

< One thing that has helped me is NPR's "Click and Clack" radio podcast >

I love Click and Clack. They also have a link on their site that lists recommended mechanics/shops which is where I found my current shop.

Luckily the only thing I lose when I have to disconnect the battery is all the settings on my radio.

[cronewitch]

My boyfriend has a 2000 silverado that will stop the radio from working if you take out the battery but I know the code. I took his truck in for him once and they said he needed a code and could make it up. I gave them his birthday numbers then wrote it inside the cover of his owners manual. If someone were to steal his radio they wouldn't know the numbers were there.

I liked knowing how to fix things and have the manuals but still don't do the work. I tried changing a fuel filter once, I knew where it was and bought the replacement, own the tools so gave it a try. Boyfriend was out of town and I was too short to get good leverage and not strong enough to turn the wrench. Stuff is too jammed in for me to reach it. I like to read the manual and buy the parts and know how to do it then get my boyfriend to actually do the work. I called my nephew to fix my fuel filter. I will only do little things like wiper blades and air filter. I get lifetime free oil changes that top off my fluids every 3 months. I have always been able to find a helpful man to change my battery. I had a truck die at work so my boss had me take home the company van, my boyfriend got me a new battery and put it in the van then my boss had an electrician put it in for me. I could have done it, I took off all the bolts and things before he got there and set the battery up near where it went but I am a poor helpless female so men take care of me. I can change a tire but only did it twice usually a man will offer to help a damsel in distress. One of my old coworkers was a cute 21 year old blond who liked to remodel houses and changed her own transmission, she had a boyfriend but he didn't like remodeling or fixing cars so she did it all.

[jennml]

Jan 8, 2011 14:53:22 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

Batteries can be a major pain in newer cars. Back in 2007 I had a coworker get a new battery and then she needed to put a code in that of course only the dealer had so the radio would work again. Some sort of anti theft thing that was a big pain in the ass bc of course no dealer just wants to give you the code.
My brother's going to get around to doing my spark plugs one of these days so I need to see if my car has one of those codes. You have to pull the battery to get to the spark plugs. The maintenace guide has 1 sentence about them that says they are a pain in the ass have a dealer do it.
I'm on trip #3 back about my tires. I had a new wheel put on and while it was supposed to include the little tire pressure monitoring thingy apparently it isn't working. So now I need to go back and get them to yank it off the old one and swap them.

My car is like this. I bought it used so never had the code. Got it from the dealer the first time and they charged me like $30 or something for it. Of course, I lost the paper and had to go again the next time my battery died. Luckily they had me in their system and didn't charge me again. Currently, I'm driving without the radio because I've been to lazy to look through my files for the damn paper with the code LMAO. I once went 6 months without my radio hehehe. What can I say I'm lazy...

[wvugurl26]

My brother bought his first truck used didn't have the code. Had to change the battery. He just started punching in numbers on a long drive and finally hit on the right one. Its a 5 hour drive and if you've done it as much as we have its pretty boring in good weather.
TD so I'll just lose my radio presets by taking the battery off? Mine's an 09.