Why thè ÚS îs not a Christian nation

[safeharbor37]

Point is the bible is an archaic twisted book of fairy tales.

shelby,
Most of us are quite aware of what your point is, but thanks for pointing it out for those who weren't.

[privateinvestor]

Jul 4, 2011 14:39:01 GMT -5 safeharbor37 said:

Point is the bible is an archaic twisted book of fairy tales.

shelby,
Most of us are quite aware of what your point is, but thanks for pointing it out for those who aren't.

Thanx Safeharbor and God Bless you for all of your comments on this thread...P.I.

[formerexpat]

You see, some things just "are".

And now most people see the fundamental problem with Christians and the belief in God.

Unfortunately, that's not a good enough reason for many to believe in God.

[shelby]

Please tell me how christians reconcile these things since the bible is to be taken litteraly and cannot be changed by man....honestly this is the biggest issue everybody I have talked to who is not christian cannot make sense of. No deflection no accusing me of hating christians or the bible (which I will admit I am not fond of and find dangerous) just how do you explain these things.

[privateinvestor]

(which I will admit I am not fond of and find dangerous)


We could also say much the same thing about your beliefs as well Ma'am...

[formerexpat]

Even atheists rely on Christian values but are unwilling to admit it.

Read the God Delusion. Christians are not unique to human morals and values that are naturally inherent in most people.

[handyman2]

Shelby are you Muslim? The reason I ask is that what you wrote is the belief of that group. Have you ever noticed that where two Muslim men are walking to gather they hold hands and if a woman is along she walks behind. Muslims believe that women are just for the pleasure of man but that a fellow male is for companionship.
peoples of Europe fled religious tyranny by governments in many countries where the church dictated all laws concerning religion. Before becoming a nation many that fled Europe once they got here amazingly adapted the same practice they had fled from. There were villages where if you were of a different belief then you were not welcome and the village fathers would jail a whole congregation if they tried to build a church to accommodate their worship.
The founding fathers saw this and knew that a great nation could not materialize if this was allowed to continue. So they structured a wall between state and religion.

[chiver78]

Jul 4, 2011 14:54:49 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

Even atheists rely on Christian values but are unwilling to admit it.

Read the God Delusion. Christians are not unique to human morals and values that are naturally inherent in most people.

for this and your prior post,

[chiver78]

Jul 4, 2011 14:05:31 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I see that this discussion quickly turned into let's bash the Christians.

as opposed to posts of yours where you insinuate that good morals and values are exclusive to Christians? I think you need to pull your head out of the sand a bit there. you're casting as much spin as you read into what some of us are saying.

[shelby]

Hnadyman no I am nor ever was of any religion I did go to church for a bit with my best friend in 4th grade but was uncomfortable my experiences were frightening and strange there. I was pointing out that it was the norm of the time for all cultures not just muslim they may still hold those now, but doesn't mean it was not more prevelant. Still did not answer my question about how you can follow some things in the bible and not all of them. I asked to not deflect and of course that is what I got. I honestly want to know how christians reconcile these things in their minds and churches.

[Virgil Showlion]

It was quite common to have homosexual relations at that time woman were seen as unworthy of a love relationship only for porcreation...the love was between 2 men. How do they portray woman in the bible again? hmmm maybe we should treat them like slaves, it is also OK to sell your daughters you know or was that serving a special purpose too?

It was a father's right (and I imagine one not exercised often) to give/sell his daughter to a fellow Israelite in marriage, the circumstances of which would likely keep her from starving to death.

Our society has developed a vast, expensive (and currently, grossly underfunded) social safety net such that these kinds of transactions are no longer necessary. As a result, we have also declared them illegal. Instead, children become wards of the state in situations where their parents cannot provide for them.

The Bible clearly states that we are to be subject to the laws of our governments, so long as they do not contradict God's Laws. The Old Testament tell us that it is permissible to give a daughter unto marriage, not by any means that it is a requirement. In western society, we have acknowledged that a man's circumstances will (at least presently) never get "so bad" that this is necessary. The laws have made it illegal. They do not contradict God's Laws. Hence, we Christians submit ourselves to the laws of our governments, as we are commanded.

What about this is so hard to understand?

morals and values that are naturally inherent in most people.

Yeah. All three of them, as I've pointed out.

And even those are dicey.

[shelby]

I know palm stated before it was his duty as christian to educate others of his faith so I am asking a direct question about the faith.

[privateinvestor]

Jul 4, 2011 14:54:49 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

Even atheists rely on Christian values but are unwilling to admit it.

Read the God Delusion. Christians are not unique to human morals and values that are naturally inherent in most people.

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

So here a summary about the author:


Clinton Richard Dawkins, FRS, FRSL (born 26 March 1941), known as Richard Dawkins, is a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist and author. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford,[1] and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008.[2]

Dawkins came to prominence with his 1976 book The Selfish Gene, which popularised the gene-centered view of evolution and introduced the term meme. In 1982, he introduced into evolutionary biology an influential concept, presented in his book The Extended Phenotype, that the phenotypic effects of a gene are not necessarily limited to an organism's body, but can stretch far into the environment, including the bodies of other organisms.[3]

Dawkins is an atheist and humanist, a Vice President of the British Humanist Association and supporter of the Brights movement. He is well known for his criticism of creationism and intelligent design. In his 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker, he argued against the watchmaker analogy, an argument for the existence of a supernatural creator based upon the complexity of living organisms. Instead, he described evolutionary processes as analogous to a blind watchmaker. He has since written several popular science books, and makes regular television and radio appearances, predominantly discussing these topics. He has been referred to in the media as "Darwin's Rottweiler",[4] a reference to English biologist T. H. Huxley, who was known as "Darwin's Bulldog" for his advocacy of Charles Darwin's evolutionary ideas. In his 2006 book The God Delusion, Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that religious faith is a delusion—a fixed false belief.[5] As of January 2010, the English-language version had sold more than two million copies and had been translated into 31 languages, making it his most popular book to date.[6]

[privateinvestor]

I see that this discussion quickly turned into let's bash the Christians

Not really PBP I would rather submit this discussion began as a let's bash the Christians here again just for sport on the 4th of July...IMHO

So we have to deal with it, I guess ??

[shelby]

Do you think it would be OK if I decided to sell my daughter if we fell on hard times? I am guessing you do not, but god said it was OK so it must be. That in a nutshell is the issue people have with using gods law to instate government or state law. If you follow some of the laws but not others you cannot expect people to take you seriously when you use the bible later to make a stand on a social issue...which never should have been brought into it in the first place.

Also looks like you understand culture and values change with time so again using gods law today seems irrational and opressive to many.

[safeharbor37]

This discussion is distorted by the views whose purpose appears to be to disparage the idea of the United States as a Christian Nation. No one suggests that in the United States, everyone goes to Church and few would even desire that.
Israel is a Jewish nation, Saudi Arabia and Iran are Islamic nations and, believe it or not, there's a big difference between The US [and Israel] and Saudi Arabia [and Iran] which has a whole lot to do with the difference between Christianity and Islam.
The truth is that secularists have no values they haven't borrowed from someone else. The big problem with that is that the values they have they've simply adopted and they can discard them just as easily as they adopted them. The difference is in the difference between inherent [unalienable] rights which require a belief system and "rights of convenience" which can be withdrawn without a twinge of conscience, by whomever is in power.

[Virgil Showlion]

Do you think it would be OK if I decided to sell my daughter if we fell on hard times? I am guessing you do not, but god said it was OK so it must be.

If the alternative was her starving to death or being forced to prostitute herself, it is not my right to condemn you for making that decision.

The Bible is extremely clear on the specific acts that cannot, under any circumstances, be performed, as well as the acts that, regardless of circumstances, must be performed. The former set includes "man lying with man, as with a woman" and is repeatedly condemned in the Book of Romans (i.e. the New Testament). The latter set is clearly delineated and does not comprise every single statute of the Law of Moses, a fact which is also abundantly clear in the New Testament.

If two men decide to engage each other sexually and romantically, that's between them. If they petition the state for tax breaks, spousal privileges, etc. under the terms of a secular contract, I have no problem with that either. But I firmly believe that giving these unions the title of "marriage", allowing the celebrations to be performed by ministers in Christian churches, is our society spitting in God's eye. I do not condone it. And I support any group that, within the bounds of the law, propositions legislation to prevent this from happening.

I believe that Americans should have a right to do the same.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Here's all four stanzas of our national Anthem:

Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

[EVT1]

One thing is for certain- Christians interpret the Bible as they see fit, and ignore the parts inconsistent with their lifestyle or politics. Apparently the Bible and its teachings are quite pliable.

Another thing- Chuck Norris has been kicked in the head too many times to make such a stupid statement about the ACLU- they have defended Christians plenty- it's just more selective interpretation.

People don't have a problem with Christians, people have a problem with intolerant assholes that want to force everyone to march to their drummer or turn the US into something it is not.

[chiver78]

Virgil, two things:

1 - under what conditions do you expect a daughter to be sold in this day and age that does NOT include prostitution? yet, you can't make judgment on someone that sells their child. the cases I've heard in recent years of children being sold, it's because the hard times were due to one or two of the other deadly sins - greed and gluttony. how do you reconcile this?

2 - the problem I have with your position on gay marriage is this - the legal secular contract between some couples is called 'marriage'. until and unless this term is changed in a secular context for every couple, I believe you cannot exclude any couples (of consenting adults) from being able to obtain it.

[privateinvestor]

I refuse to let a former Navy Yeomen outdo me by posing our National Anthem..so here's my favorite Anthem which is #2 :
U.S. Marine Corps Hymn (Marine Hymn)




From the Halls of Montezuma
To the Shores of Tripoli;
We fight our country's battles
In the air, on land and sea;
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean;
We are proud to claim the title
of United States Marine.

Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in ev'ry clime and place
Where we could take a gun;
In the snow of far-off Northern lands
And in sunny tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job--
The United States Marines.
Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve;
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.

[chiver78]

Paul - you do understand that the national anthem was written by someone other than the Founding Fathers, close to 40 years after the Declaration was signed, right?

evt -

[privateinvestor]

If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.


And quite possibly handyman2 & me...I will be the tall, handsome guy with all the medals of course...

[formerexpat]

there's a big difference between The US [and Israel] and Saudi Arabia [and Iran] which has a whole lot to do with the difference between Christianity and Islam.

There is a big difference between the US and many European countries that are dominated by Christianity. I'm sure heritage, culture & politics, independent of religion, plays a big part of the differences.

Otherwise, with both of our Christian backgrounds, Russia and the US would have gotten along better.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

In fact, whether official or not, it is very difficult to find an American patriotic tune that doesn't explicity reference God.

The Battle Hymn of the Republic

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His day is marching on.

I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free;
[originally …let us die to make men free]
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free.
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer:

God bless america, land that I love,
Stand beside her and guide her
Through the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans white with foam,
God bless america,
My home sweet home.

[privateinvestor]

Yea but the Marine Hymn talks about us guarding the streets of heaven so you will have to deal with PBP, but I promise not to be too rough if you are not too squared away..

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

America The Beautiful

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet,
Whose stern impassion'd stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America! God mend thine ev'ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country loved,
And mercy more than life!
America! America! May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness,
And ev'ry gain divine!

O Beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam,
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

[EVT1]

Wow- a lot of old songs have God in it- is that supposed to be significant? I can probably turn on the radio and hear God mentioned in a song within 5 minutes. Interestingly, I saw this movie once with lesbian women referencing God quite a bit- is that significant?

[shelby]

Why not let the church decide if they will perform them or not they won't have too. By the same vein I thought 2nd marriages would be banned but they are not, another one of the pick and choose. Marriage is not exclusive to christain faith either I am married and not christian. Your whole premiss of preventing this is based on religious belief which we as a whole should not be governed by. Pretty simple really don't understand why this is what christians are so focused on why not protest 2nd 3rd marriages, divorces , poeple who fornicated before marriage, cohabitating out of wedlock.....on and on and on. Obviously you are just picking on 1 group which conveniently is an easy target.