chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 4, 2011 11:28:45 GMT -5
Please read the link before commenting. it was actually a very thought-provoking article. have a safe and happy Independence Day. ;D ****************************************************************************************** Why the US is not a Christian nation(CNN) -- As America celebrates its birthday on July 4, the timeless words of Thomas Jefferson will surely be invoked to remind us of our founding ideals -- that "All men are created equal" and are "endowed by their Creator" with the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These phrases, a cherished part of our history, have rightly been called "American Scripture." But Jefferson penned another phrase, arguably his most famous after those from the Declaration of Independence. These far more contentious words -- "a wall of separation between church and state" -- lie at the heart of the ongoing debate between those who see America as a "Christian Nation" and those who see it as a secular republic, a debate that is hotter than a Washington Fourth of July. It is true these words do not appear in any early national document. What may be Jefferson's second most-quoted phrase is found instead in a letter he sent to a Baptist association in Danbury, Connecticut. While president in 1802, Jefferson wrote: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State ... " **the whole column is pretty long, so I'm not going to post it all here. **
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 12:09:49 GMT -5
You don't need any more evidence that the United States founding principles are deeply rooted in the Judeo-Christian principles, worldview, and ethic than the constant drumbeat from the far left that the United States is not a Christian nations.
You see, some things just "are". And if it were so that the reality was in fact that the US was not a Christian nation, then why the constant reminder? If it's so obvious the US is not a Christian nation, if it's as obvious as the sky is blue, why would this fact have to be stated and re-stated. If it is so obvious, and the mountain of evidence so vast-- but more importantly, if the culture of the United States was deeply rooted in athiestic, or some other religious principles, worldview, and ethic-- then why the need to keep harping on it?
The answer of course is that the founders of the United States- the authors of The Declaration of Independence that we celebrate today, and the framers of the United States Constitution which codified those principles are deeply rooted in Judeo-Christian principles. The whole concept of freedom is one rooted almost exclusively in the Christian religion; the concept of freeing slaves comes from the very center of Christianity- our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who came to set the captives free. Our founders wrote and spoke extensively about the importance of the Christian religion, and in fact our Constitution's principle of divided government comes from Scripture- and in fact, the NEED for divided government extends from the Judeo-Christian belief in original sin- a belief that we have a sinful nature, and that we needed a way to protect ourselves from ourselves.
The vain and desperate attempts by leftist radicals to re-write our history is rooted in fear. Because the left knows that if there's a God, then there's a power greater than government. If people ever believed they must obey God rather than government, their dream of tyranny dies-- in fact, all tyranny crumbles under the feet of Jesus Christ, and the Christian religion. Oh, you can point to perversions of the faith- like the crusades-- hell, even welfare and socialistic ideas borrow and try to corrupt scripture. Jesus has, and will continue to be dragged out and used by those who hate Him to advance their own cause and if possible decieve even His real followers into thinking what they are doing is a "good" thing.
Those on the left know that the moment there is a revival of America's founding ideals, if our founding principles take root and start to grow, and there is a repentance and a turning away from wickedness and selfishness and a revival of faith in Jesus Christ in America once again-- if we ever become de Tocqueville's description of America once more-- it's OVER for the left for two or three generations. It's taken a long time to tear down the greatest civilization mankind has ever built on this Earth, it's taken centuries for the foundation to start to crumble-- it's articles like these that aim to destroy us once and for all.
I got news for you...it's too late. Those of you that made it to Wilmington, OH last December can testify...America ain't over. They didn't kill it. They can't kill it. It only takes a small remnant-- it only takes ONE devoted to God for God to turn a nation around and it's already begun.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Jul 4, 2011 12:19:53 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 4, 2011 12:25:22 GMT -5
chiver, the problem is that the increasingly aggressive application of SOCAS is denying Americans their right to proposition laws consistent with their beliefs. As is common on these boards, let us consider the right to marry. It has been argued many times that there exists no constitutional right for homosexuals to call their secular unions "marriage". The US Constitution and Bill of Rights carefully enumerate rights and protections granted to American citizens. The right to co-opt marriage is not among them. The Establishment Clause (which I truly believe was a prohibition against setting up a national church such as the Church of England to co-rule the state, but that the courts have interpreted far more strictly) has been used to cut down the democratic will of the people to resolve the matter. California voted several times to strike down gay "marriage". The court of appeals overturned the votes, declaring them unconstitutional. Polls for various other states--including some that have allowed gays to "marry"--indicate that the democratic majority still refuse to recognize homosexual unions. In essence, the courts have taken a clause from the constitution, extended it vastly beyond its original parameters, used it to veto the will of the people (that tyrannical democratic majority), and by fiat decreed that citizens must recognize an institution they view as wholly immoral despite the fact that there are no explicit constitutional protections. The homosexual activists and lobbyists will not accept civil unions as a compromise, since civil unions provide Americans with the freedom to discriminate. They permit the democratic majority to declare "we will not grant your unions legitimacy beyond the token benefits (tax breaks, visitation privileges, etc.) administered by the state". As it stands now, many Americans have been divested of this freedom. And although I find (genuinely) violent "Christians" a disgrace, I find it equally vexing when posters ponder why oh why hard line fundamentalism and anti-federalism are on the rise. SOCAS was meant to be a shield. Activists, with the complicity of the courts, have turned it into a battering ram. ETA: @ paul
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:26:59 GMT -5
The author of the declaration of independence did NOT believe that Jesus was the son of God and a virginal Mary... I do think that disqualifies him from your Christian religion... Our founders distrusted religion almost as much as democracy..
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 12:32:31 GMT -5
What I find amusing about the whole gay marriage issue is the history of state-sponsored marriage. It's like the left doesn't remember that the marriage license doesn't exactly have the most wholesome history in the US (probably because the Democratic Party would like to forget its role in it). The entire concept began with restricting inter-racial marriages.
I'm a Christian, but I'm also a libertarian on marriage. I don't think ANYONE needs the permission of the state to marry. Period. Because marriage is primarily a religious institution-- I'll grant with many secular benefits.
The gay marriage issue is really about freedom of contract- something the government should respect and recognize anyway. Regardless of the moral issues, what two people agree to and express their will to do-- that should be recognized as long as it is fundamentally non-violent and does not interfere with the rights of others.
I am strongly opposed to gay adoption, and adoption by polygamists, etc. I think children belong in stable one-man, one-woman families until they're old enough to CHOOSE the lifestyle they think they want.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 12:33:33 GMT -5
The author of the declaration of independence did NOT believe that Jesus was the son of God and a virginal Mary... I do think that disqualifies him from your Christian religion... Our founders distrusted religion almost as much as democracy.. But he did believe in God... They distrusted organized religion because they'd seen that with the head of the Church of England, the Church as State, King George.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 12:35:39 GMT -5
By the late Doctor D. James Kennedy:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:42:25 GMT -5
Many people believe in a God... but that does not make them Christians...
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 4, 2011 12:45:22 GMT -5
What is the driving force of anger and restrictions placed on a group you don't like? if you think it's wrong disgusting against gods word fine....why does everyone else have to live by that ideology? If a church does not want to perform these ceremonies than don't they don't have too. It's not going to stop anybody from believing in god and if you believe they will be smited by god not your problem. Or should we stone them to death like the bible says if we took it to the fullest the bible suggests...and why stop there if you have such strong convictions from the bible why pick and choose what is punishable by death come on stand up have some balls outlaw shellfish and mixed fabrics...
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 4, 2011 12:45:53 GMT -5
Why the US is not a Christian nation It really depends on what you mean by "a Christian nation." If you mean that the US doesn't have an official religion, you are right. If you mean that the US is not required to be "a Christian nation," you are right. If on the other hand, you mean that the US, the American Culture, the American people, and the values of the society are not, were not or and will not be influenced by what is generally referred to as Judo-Christian values, you are completely wrong. The entire culture of the "West" was once referred to as "Christendom," and not without good reason. Even atheists rely on Christian values but are unwilling to admit it. It is who we are and what we are. That doesn't mean that you can't disavow it. You have that freedom, but to deny the reality is just arrogant ignorance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 12:53:00 GMT -5
"even atheists rely on Christian values"
.. only inso far as they were co-opted by Christianity... There were morals and values long before Christianity... and most of them are shared among the major religions.... Christians do not have a corner on values... There are very few differences, actually among the values of the different major religions.... all that differs is the trappings... the exact parables, and the mysticism...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 4, 2011 12:59:26 GMT -5
That's like saying there are very few differences among the Earth's major nations. We all have governments, courts, officials, statutes, armies, schools, churches. All that differs is the trappings. The subjects taught in school. The rulings handed down by courts. Nothing major.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 13:01:23 GMT -5
What values are you talking about that Christians hold, and atheists follow... but other religions do not hold as a basic tenet?
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 4, 2011 13:06:45 GMT -5
"Even atheists rely on Christian values but are unwilling to admit it. It is who we are and what we are. That doesn't mean that you can't disavow it. You have that freedom, but to deny the reality is just arrogant ignorance. "
I agree with oped most if not all cultures and religions hold the same basic morals and values to call them strictly christian is pretty naive. It is not who I am or what I am at all so disavowing it makes no sense I was never christian. I understand your desire to capture all souls for your conquest of Christianity...meaning I understand you wish that not that I condone it. But it is neither noble or productive in this secular society.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 4, 2011 13:12:23 GMT -5
What values are you talking about that Christians hold, and atheists follow... but other religions do not hold as a basic tenet? If you see the world through the eyes of Jesus it is hard to understand others do not...They believe we all belong to a man in the sky we do not believe in...so pretty hard to come to consensus with that.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 13:18:46 GMT -5
Why the US is not a Christian nationIt really depends on what you mean by "a Christian nation." If you mean that the US doesn't have an official religion, you are right. If you mean that the US is not required to be "a Christian nation," you are right. If on the other hand, you mean that the US, the American Culture, the American people, and the values of the society are not, were not or and will not be influenced by what is generally referred to as Judo-Christian values, you are completely wrong. The entire culture of the "West" was once referred to as "Christendom," and not without good reason. Even atheists rely on Christian values but are unwilling to admit it. It is who we are and what we are. That doesn't mean that you can't disavow it. You have that freedom, but to deny the reality is just arrogant ignorance.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 13:23:28 GMT -5
What values are you talking about that Christians hold, and atheists follow... but other religions do not hold as a basic tenet? If you see the world through the eyes of Jesus it is hard to understand others do not...They believe we all belong to a man in the sky we do not believe in...so pretty hard to come to consensus with that. In a free country, we don't need to come to a consensus. You live your life, we'll live ours. Freedom of religion is one of the greatest things about America. Once the far left succeeds in rooting out all Christian charity, and barring the freedom of religion, and pushing Christians to the margins, and restricting religious speech and expression because you know, it's "hateful"...well, then you'll have your little tyrannical paradise and you can celebrate your freedom to believe whatever you want-- in jail, with your mouth shut. Just like everyplace else that restricts Christianity.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 4, 2011 13:27:17 GMT -5
The United States was founded by people, most of whom were adherents of some form of Christianity and even those who were not had never known a society which wasn't essentially Christian. That's all they knew of first hand and it formed their values. This has nothing to do with similarities of various religions or "secularism" ~ just that most people believe and behave according to how they've been raised. Out founders were no exception and throughout our history even until today, most people are of the Christian persuasion and even those who aren't are influenced by it. There is, and has been, an effort to diminish the influence of religion on society [probably forever]. There is however, a group aspect of religion which goes beyond "it's personal" and affects the whole of society. An interesting fact is that 75 years of atheistic communism didn't wipe out religion in the Soviet Union ~ so religion has a little more lasting power than the "secularists" tend to believe ~ and the values of those religions do indeed affect the society ~ despite the humanist whining.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 4, 2011 13:29:58 GMT -5
Many people believe in a God... but that does not make them Christians... and I echo the post about Christianity not being a pre-requisite to having morals and values. to those that disagree, do you mean to imply that because I follow pagan and some wiccan beliefs and traditions, that I don't have morals or values?
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 4, 2011 13:31:19 GMT -5
If you see the world through the eyes of Jesus it is hard to understand others do not...They believe we all belong to a man in the sky we do not believe in...so pretty hard to come to consensus with that. In a free country, we don't need to come to a consensus. You live your life, we'll live ours. Freedom of religion is one of the greatest things about America. Once the far left succeeds in rooting out all Christian charity, and barring the freedom of religion, and pushing Christians to the margins, and restricting religious speech and expression because you know, it's "hateful"...well, then you'll have your little tyrannical paradise and you can celebrate your freedom to believe whatever you want-- in jail, with your mouth shut. Just like everyplace else that restricts Christianity. Wow maybe a little paranoid paul. I have never heard anyone say they want to outlaw religion or even restrict it. Just keep the separation of church and state which you do not believe we should have. I do not want to live under the tyranny of religion. If you want to use hateful speech than go ahead and use it in your church not in public policy. So frigging hypocritical it is ridiculous. Seriously stop with the Christian persecution crap..because it is crap.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 4, 2011 13:55:55 GMT -5
I'm not going to split this up into quotes, but I do want to counter a few points in this post. I'll highlight my comments within the quoted content. You don't need any more evidence that the United States founding principles are deeply rooted in the Judeo-Christian principles, worldview, and ethic than the constant drumbeat from the far left that the United States is not a Christian nations. I'd counter that those of us that read and understand the writing of Thomas Jefferson are getting sick of those that insist upon imposing the will of their own religious beliefs. TJ and others of his time were painfully aware of what happened in England, and they did not want that to happen here in the New World. reference the bill passed by the Senate in 1797 and quoted in the column In 1797, with President John Adams in office, the Senate unanimously approved one of America's earliest foreign treaties, which emphatically stated (Article 11): "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen (Muslims) ..."
You see, some things just "are". And if it were so that the reality was in fact that the US was not a Christian nation, then why the constant reminder? If it's so obvious the US is not a Christian nation, if it's as obvious as the sky is blue, why would this fact have to be stated and re-stated. If it is so obvious, and the mountain of evidence so vast-- but more importantly, if the culture of the United States was deeply rooted in athiestic, or some other religious principles, worldview, and ethic-- then why the need to keep harping on it? The answer of course is that the founders of the United States- the authors of The Declaration of Independence that we celebrate today, and the framers of the United States Constitution which codified those principles are deeply rooted in Judeo-Christian principles. again, other religions have order and structure, morals and values. these things are not exclusive to Christianity. The whole concept of freedom is one rooted almost exclusively in the Christian religion; the concept of freeing slaves comes from the very center of Christianity- our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who came to set the captives free. Our founders wrote and spoke extensively about the importance of the Christian religion, and in fact our Constitution's principle of divided government comes from Scripture- and in fact, the NEED for divided government extends from the Judeo-Christian belief in original sin- a belief that we have a sinful nature, and that we needed a way to protect ourselves from ourselves. I don't disagree that the Founders thought Christianity is important. but what you are missing is that they also understood that government and religion should not be intertwined and they wrote our documents irrespective of the 10 Commandments, the Torah, or the Koran.The vain and desperate attempts by leftist radicals to re-write our history is rooted in fear. Because the left knows that if there's a God, then there's a power greater than government. If people ever believed they must obey God rather than government, their dream of tyranny dies-- in fact, all tyranny crumbles under the feet of Jesus Christ, and the Christian religion. Oh, you can point to perversions of the faith- like the crusades-- hell, even welfare and socialistic ideas borrow and try to corrupt scripture. Jesus has, and will continue to be dragged out and used by those who hate Him to advance their own cause and if possible decieve even His real followers into thinking what they are doing is a "good" thing. quite frankly, I feel that a government that wishes to create laws that impose the religious leanings of its members onto the rest of society is somewhat tyrannical - if you go by the sense that it is an arbitrary rule. it's arbitrary to those that don't subscribe to that particular religion, anyway. Those on the left know that the moment there is a revival of America's founding ideals, if our founding principles take root and start to grow, and there is a repentance and a turning away from wickedness and selfishness and a revival of faith in Jesus Christ in America once again-- if we ever become de Tocqueville's description of America once more-- it's OVER for the left for two or three generations. It's taken a long time to tear down the greatest civilization mankind has ever built on this Earth, it's taken centuries for the foundation to start to crumble-- it's articles like these that aim to destroy us once and for all. I got news for you...it's too late. Those of you that made it to Wilmington, OH last December can testify...America ain't over. They didn't kill it. They can't kill it. It only takes a small remnant-- it only takes ONE devoted to God for God to turn a nation around and it's already begun. I think it's great that you hold such high esteem for the religion you practice. that tells me that you follow the guidelines for living proscribed in the appropriate tomes. you know, like growing a beard, not eating pork, and staying away from menstruating women. like someone else said, religion is not a la carte.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 4, 2011 13:56:53 GMT -5
Your comments about religious similarities included nothing about restricting said similarities to beliefs that atheists also follow. As far as I know, atheists generally believe that: - murder is wrong, unless a human being can be suitably defined as "inhuman", such as a fetus or a patient on life support. In some flavours of atheism, murder to prevent overpopulation is also acceptable.
- stealing is wrong (I think)
- lying is wrong unless it is done for the public good
I've never met a group of atheists who could agree on a set of morals more extensive than this. If this is all we have to work with in terms of "are religions all similar", then yes I'd have to agree that most major religions are the same.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 4, 2011 14:02:35 GMT -5
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 4, 2011 14:03:02 GMT -5
Chiver78, None has said they are. That's the "straw-man" argument. The fact that other religions have similar values does not change the fact that the Founders based their values on Christian ones.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 4, 2011 14:05:31 GMT -5
I see that this discussion quickly turned into let's bash the Christians. Understandable, seeing that it's easier to change the subject than continue to argue that the United States of America isn't built upon Judeo-Christian principles, by people who held mostly to evangelical protestant Christianity, and who held a Judeo-Christian worldview.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 4, 2011 14:11:27 GMT -5
The ACLU is not anti-religion, just anti-Christian. By definition, it's the American Civil Liberties Union. By action, it has become the Abolishing Christian Legacy Union. The ACLU will assure Muslim clerics and imams the right to pray on planes, fight for an atheist's rights to remove a cross, stand beside pro-abortionists, help illegal aliens cross our borders, and establish rights for the sexual deviant by forming the ACLU Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Project, but what is it doing for Christians and Christmas censorship? While allegedly fighting against the tyranny of the majority, the ACLU itself rules religiously by litigation, lobbying, and supporting counter-culture Christian movements. So who died and appointed the ACLU as America's religious constitutional watchdog? Membership for the ACLU is only 500,000. America's population is 300 million. I think it's time that we helped them feel their size! I suggest the rest of us follow the passion of Thomas Jefferson, who spoke these words that are etched on the very wall of his memorial in Washington, D.C.: 'I have sworn upon the altar of upon the alter of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.'"
Dec. 11, 2006 - Chuck Norris
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 4, 2011 14:14:49 GMT -5
I see that this discussion quickly turned into let's bash the Christians. Understandable, seeing that it's easier to change the subject than continue to argue that the United States of America isn't built upon Judeo-Christian principles, by people who held mostly to evangelical protestant Christianity, and who held a Judeo-Christian worldview. PBP......Are you surprised especially on our Nation's Birthday?? And of course be ready for the usual lame old disdain by those who don't agree with you once again... The ACLU will assure Muslim clerics and imams the right to pray on planes, fight for an atheist's rights to remove a cross, stand beside pro-abortionists, help illegal aliens cross our borders, and establish rights for the sexual deviant by forming the ACLU Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Project, but what is it doing for Christians and Christmas censorship?Thanx to Chuck Norris for saying this.. So in my book he is another true patriot and served in the Air Force in the 60s...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 4, 2011 14:21:15 GMT -5
The "beard laws" in Leviticus were instructions to the Israelite males on how they should trim their beards so as to be recognizable as Israelites, and for the Levitical priesthood. They don't prescribe whether men should grow beards or not.
Laws about menstruation were/are for health purposes. The question becomes whether the (relatively recent) availability of "protection" in first-world countries is sufficient to satisfy the requirements. Most Christians, myself included, believe that it does.
Pork laws are also about health, and for preventing disease. My church adheres to them, as do I.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 4, 2011 14:30:03 GMT -5
Yes and to not lay with a man in the way you lay with a woman is for the purpose of saving seed so to grow the population at a time of under population in the Christian world. See we can all interpret how ever we want. It was quite common to have homosexual relations at that time woman were seen as unworthy of a love relationship only for porcreation...the love was between 2 men. How do they portray woman in the bible again? hmmm maybe we should treat them like slaves, it is also OK to sell your daughters you know or was that serving a special purpose too?
Point is the bible is an archaic twisted book of fairy tales. And as a true believer you have to believe all of it not parts.
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