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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 19:45:08 GMT -5
The Constitution’s framers were flawed like today’s politicians, so it’s high time we stop embalming them in infallibility. He may have written the Declaration of Independence, but were he around today Thomas Jefferson wouldn’t have a prayer of winning the Republican nomination, much less the presidency. It wouldn’t be his liaison with the teenage daughter of one of his slaves nor the love children she bore him that would be the stumbling block. Nor would it be Jefferson’s suspicious possession of an English translation of the Quran that might doom him to fail the Newt Gingrich loyalty test. No, it would be the Jesus problem that would do him in. For Thomas Jefferson denied that Jesus was the son of God. Worse, he refused to believe that Jesus ever made any claim that he was. While he was at it, Jefferson also rejected as self-evidently absurd the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection. Jefferson was not, as his enemies in the election of 1800 claimed, an atheist. He believed in the Creator whom he invoked in the Declaration of Independence and whom he thought had brought the natural universe into being. By his own lights he thought himself a true Christian, an admirer of the moral teachings of the Nazarene. It had been, he argued, generations of the clergy who had perverted the simple humanity of Jesus the reformer, turned him into a messiah, and invented the myth that he had died to redeem mankind’s sins. All of which would surely mean that, notwithstanding his passion for minimal government, the Sage of Monticello would have no chance at all beside True Believers like Michele Bachmann. But Jefferson’s rationalist deism is not the idle makeover of liberal wishful thinking. It is incontrovertible historical fact, as is his absolute determination never to admit religion into any institutions of the public realm. So the philosopher-president whose aversion to overbearing government makes him a Tea Party patriarch was also a man who thought the Immaculate Conception a fable. But then real history is like that—full of knotty contradictions, its cast list of heroes, especially American heroes, majestic in their complicated imperfections. Take another of the Founders routinely canonized in the current fairy-tale version of American origins that passes muster for history by those who don’t actually read very much of it: Alexander Hamilton. Outed by the Andrew Breitbart of his day, James Thomson Callender, for having had an “amorous connection” with the married Maria Reynolds, Hamilton responded by making an unapologetic preemptive confession—insisting that since on the truly serious issue of whether he had profited from the management of public finances he was innocent, the rest was nobody’s business but his own. Callender retorted that Hamilton had owned up to the sexual impropriety as a cover for the more serious financial one. True history is the enemy of reverence. We do the authors of American independence no favors by embalming them in infallibility, by treating the Constitution like a quasi-biblical revelation instead of the product of contention and cobbled-together compromise that it actually was. Even the collective noun “Founding -Fathers” planes smooth the unreconciled divisiveness of their bitter and acrimonious disputes. History is a book of chastening wisdom to which we ought to be looking to deepen our understanding of the legitimate nature of American government—including its revenue-raising power, an issue that deeply captivated the antagonized minds of that first generation. But unfortunately, there is little evidence of citizens engaging in close, critical reading of The Federalist Papers, of the debates surrounding constitutional ratification, or of the dispute that pitted Hamilton and James Madison against Patrick Henry over what was at stake in Congress’s authority to make laws “necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the…Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States.” Instead of knowledge, we have tricorn hats. Staring at a copy of the Constitution in the National Archives and making promotional pilgrimages to revolutionary New England didn’t prevent Sarah Palin from butchering the truth of Paul Revere’s ride, turning it into some sort of NRA advisory to the British to keep their gosh-darned hands off American firearms. Facts, as John Adams insisted when defending British redcoats after the Boston Massacre, “are stubborn things.” He would be horrified by the regularity with which American history is mangled in the interests of confirming prejudices. It matters when Glenn Beck’s guest Andrew Napolitano pins the responsibility for the 17th Amendment, instituting direct election of senators, on a Wilsonian plot against American liberties, rather than the proposal of a Republican senator in 1911 that was approved by Congress before Wilson ever set foot in the White House. It matters when Bachmann mischaracterizes the Founding Fathers as working “tirelessly until slavery was no more in the United States.” What made the Constitution acceptable throughout the Union was a Faustian bargain that counted slaves as three fifths of a citizen, thus artificially bloating the political representation of the slaveholding South. With adult history buffs so deluded about the reality of the American past, it’s even more alarming that the National Assessment of Educational Progress recently rated history as the subject at which students are least proficient. This wouldn’t matter if history were just some recreational stroll down memory lane. But it isn’t. In the fiery debates of Americans long dead can be discerned the lineaments of the same core issues that divide us today. Right now, the education that might inform such a debate has turned into a schoolyard shouting match. As the electioneering rises to a din, those who dare to read history for its chastening wisdom will be fatuously accused of “declinism.” But it is those who reduce history’s hard and honest reckonings to exceptionalist chest-thumping who will be the true agents of degeneration. As one of Jefferson’s favorite books, Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, so luminously argued, there is no surer sign of a country’s cultural and political decay than an obtuse blindness to its unmistakable beginnings. Schama, a professor of history at Columbia University, debuts as a NEWSWEEK/DAILY BEAST contributor in this issue. Books: The Historical Founders Revolutionaries: A New History of the Invention of America by Jack Rakove. Compulsive and compulsory reading on the Revolution and forging of the Constitution. Defiance of the Patriots: The Boston Tea Party & the Making of America by Benjamin L. Carp. A wise and illuminating study of the original tea party. American Scripture: Making the Declaration of Independence by Pauline Maier. The definitive book, and a thrilling read, on the writing of the Declaration. The Federalist Papers. The priceless document of two mighty intellects, Alexander Hamilton and James Madison, united in common cause of creating an enduring American government. www.newsweek.com/2011/06/26/the-founding-fathers-were-flawed.html
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jun 30, 2011 20:21:45 GMT -5
Well Lakhota you did not finish the job. You left out that Hamilton left the Virgin Islands where he was under the tutorship of a rich Englishman under a cloud of embezzlement. And don't forget Franklin was a womanizer extraordinary. Don't forget also that most of the business of establishing the Constitution and the bill of rights was conducted in a pub. No wonder the constitution has flaws in it EH.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jun 30, 2011 20:48:58 GMT -5
I honestly do not know how to reply to this.
There are so many things wrong with the fact that this is run as news. Who give a flying walrus fart about who the founders were, in all honesty, all that matters is the document that they created.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 30, 2011 20:55:57 GMT -5
Agreed, cme. I don't think anyone with a modicum of active brain cells would think these were any more than fallible human beings. They created a document that has worked pretty darned well, considering how much has changed over the years. We've managed to deal with change as it presented itself, and have done well, all in all. We've stumbled along the way, and we'll stumble again. After all, we're still human after all these years ...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 30, 2011 21:00:02 GMT -5
I think it's a good reminder of how flawed humans can accomplish great things. The American public in general seems to want a president that lived a morally perfect life.
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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 21:00:38 GMT -5
Well, goodie, why don't you summon a few more mods to make some more stupid statements. I like it when you all attack like killer bees.
Hey, if you don't like the thread, maybe you could just ignore it...?
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 30, 2011 21:11:48 GMT -5
Who attacked, Lakhota? I've seen no attacks. I've seen disagreement that it's all that important who the founding fathers were, and that the document they created was far more important. I've seen people point out the value of that document over time, and the fact that its value isn't lessened because of the flaws inherent in the humans who created it. In none of those stances did I see an attack.
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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 21:21:18 GMT -5
You dittoed cme, which I considered a mild attack on the thread.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 30, 2011 21:28:07 GMT -5
If mild attack on the thread means a completely useless post that is completely irrelevant and meant to stir people up, which we've become accustomed to from a few select posters, can I ditto?
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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 21:29:45 GMT -5
Oh, goodie, now let's make it personal...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 30, 2011 21:32:11 GMT -5
You considered wrongly, Lakhota, if you're speaking of my post. I stated my views, which may not agree with your views. I didn't attack anything ... what you consider notwithstanding.
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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 21:35:58 GMT -5
That's actually funny. Strange, but funny.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 30, 2011 21:48:08 GMT -5
Why not try to introduce your thread with a statement that speaks to your intent i.e that the Founding Fathers and today's Leaders in Washington DC have much in common or the Founding Fathers would be ashamed at all the divisiveness in today's congress..or how the Constitution as written by the Founding Fathers is NOT used by our congress today but rather they are guided by special interests instead..
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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 21:51:30 GMT -5
Why don't you? Oh, I forgot, it ain't "your" thread, is it...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2011 21:54:42 GMT -5
I think the issue is the impossible expectation that elected representatives be somehow perfect ... Franklin most Definitely would have taken advantage of twitter to more widely circulate his penis...
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Jun 30, 2011 21:55:26 GMT -5
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 30, 2011 21:56:28 GMT -5
Why don't you? Oh, I forgot, it ain't "your" thread, is it... ?? Just ask me to write an intro for you and it willl be done..you know how I have always tried to help you Lak to enhance your threads I would not have used this intro: The Constitution’s framers were flawed like today’s politicians, so it’s high time we stop embalming them in infallibilityBut maybe one that relates to the 4th of July or something better than that one you wrote.. Or how about this "Do You Agree With Prof Schama's Thesis Re: Our Founding Fathers & Today Congressional Leaders"...
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jun 30, 2011 22:03:47 GMT -5
Wow, an attack on the thread, no it was a statement to the fact that this is news. period.
The founders were men, the funny thing is the article starts out with the assumption that people would not vote for a Thomas Jefferson type is preposterous. If you are simply looking at it as he is to far right for the far left and too far left for the far right and they were the only voters then yes you might actually find a way to make the assumption work, it leaves out a wide margin of actual voters.
As tired as most people are with the "establishment" there has yet to be any viable third party candidates, if someone like Jefferson had a good platform and leadership, then yes he might just be the person to come in and finally make it 32% left 32% right 36% middle.
Do schools not teach colonial history any more? What exactly was the point in the article, it touches on religion (Thomas Jefferson, True Believer, Jesus) , then it transitions into trying to say that if the history of the personal lives were known if everyone knew what the federalist papers know, if people knew the intent of what the founders meant by including its revenue-raising power, then transitions into mistakes by famous Republicans With adult history buffs so deluded about the reality of the American past that we could all be taught Right now, the education that might inform such a debate has turned into a schoolyard shouting match.
I really don't know where to start. I find that who the founders were is irrelevant to any discussion, anyone who reads "intent" into a written document is not looking at the black and white facts. How they lived how crooked they were doesn't matter their misdeeds much like them are non-existent today. They are inspirational, yes relevant, not really.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jun 30, 2011 22:04:48 GMT -5
That's actually funny. Strange, but funny. that was actually the intent
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 30, 2011 22:14:24 GMT -5
Reagan loved to quote Thomas Jefferson and often said he read all of his papers and used his ideas as a reference when he was faced with decisions ...he would ask himself what would Jefferson do in this dilemma that I am faced with?? Btw Micheal Beschloss wrote a best seller a few years ago that compared Jefferson and Reagan:
The Last Jeffersonian gives Reagan his due as a politician, a patriot, and a political thinker. Michael Beschloss calls Reagan "one of the most important presidents in American history." This book explains why. Based on a close study of Reagan's most important speeches, as well as analysis of his key policies, The Last Jeffersonian shows why Reagan connected with the American people. He reformulated traditions of limited government, free enterprise, democratic participation, and patriotic belief in the future. He argued for his updated version of the American dream with perseverance, passion, and energy. As a result, he changed the country and the entire world.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2011 22:20:13 GMT -5
There are much worse questions to ask yourself.
I also prefer jefferson's bible.
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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 22:49:50 GMT -5
There are much worse questions to ask yourself. I also prefer jefferson's bible. Yes, the Jefferson Bible is interesting. This and the fact that Jefferson coined the phrase “ separation between church and state” are all the reasons Conservatives need to detest and demote him in textbooks. THE Jefferson Bible www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 30, 2011 22:52:41 GMT -5
Not only the popcorn but have you noticed as you observe molly, I know you don't post much but beleive you do read a lot of what goes on here, how so many here all have a stick up their posterior on almost all and any post that is made..both sides by the way, as if they have to one up the other one, continuously, get that last word in, so little humor and good will to any one unless it seems they are getting kudos's from some one, then they slobber all over that one..not because they really like or want to be their com padre , just because they have some one giving them accolades on their ideas.. Pretty pathetic it is.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 30, 2011 22:56:25 GMT -5
There are much worse questions to ask yourself. I also prefer jefferson's bible. Yes, the Jefferson Bible is interesting. This and the fact that Jefferson coined the phrase “ separation between church and state” are all the reasons Conservatives need to detest and demote him in textbooks. THE Jefferson Bible www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/What about Jefferson's Quran??
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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 22:57:00 GMT -5
Texas Board of Education cuts Thomas Jefferson out of its textbooksThe Texas Board of Education has been meeting this week to revise its social studies curriculum. During the past three days, “the board’s far-right faction wielded their power to shape lessons on the civil rights movement, the U.S. free enterprise system and hundreds of other topics”: – To avoid exposing students to “transvestites, transsexuals and who knows what else,” the Board struck the curriculum’s reference to “sex and gender as social constructs.” – The Board removed Thomas Jefferson from the Texas curriculum, “replacing him with religious right icon John Calvin.” – The Board refused to require that “students learn that the Constitution prevents the U.S. government from promoting one religion over all others.” – The Board struck the word “democratic” from the description of the U.S. government, instead terming it a “constitutional republic.” As the nation’s second-largest textbook market, Texas has enormous leverage over publishers, who often “craft their standard textbooks based on the specs of the biggest buyers.” Indeed, as The Washington Monthly has reported, “when it comes to textbooks, what happens in Texas rarely stays in Texas.” UPDATE: Following repeated failed attempts to add figures in Hispanic history to the textbooks, one board member, Mary Helen Berlanga, stormed “out of the meeting late Thursday night, saying, ‘They can just pretend this is a white America and Hispanics don’t exist.’” thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/03/12/86595/texas-education-board-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks/
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Post by lakhota on Jun 30, 2011 23:04:23 GMT -5
Texas Education Board Approves Conservative Curriculum Changes By Far-RightAUSTIN, Texas — A far-right faction of the Texas State Board of Education succeeded Friday in injecting conservative ideals into social studies, history and economics lessons that will be taught to millions of students for the next decade. Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state. Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic," and students will be required to study the decline in value of the U.S. dollar, including the abandonment of the gold standard. "We have been about conservatism versus liberalism," said Democrat Mavis Knight of Dallas, explaining her vote against the standards. "We have manipulated strands to insert what we want it to be in the document, regardless as to whether or not it's appropriate." Following three days of impassioned and acrimonious debate, the board gave preliminary approval to the new standards with a 10-5 party line vote. A final vote is expected in May, after a public comment period that could produce additional amendments and arguments. Decisions by the board – made up of lawyers, a dentist and a weekly newspaper publisher among others – can affect textbook content nationwide because Texas is one of publishers' biggest clients. Ultraconservatives wielded their power over hundreds of subjects this week, introducing and rejecting amendments on everything from the civil rights movement to global politics. Hostilities flared and prompted a walkout Thursday by one of the board's most prominent Democrats, Mary Helen Berlanga of Corpus Christi, who accused her colleagues of "whitewashing" curriculum standards. By late Thursday night, three other Democrats seemed to sense their futility and left, leaving Republicans to easily push through amendments heralding "American exceptionalism" and the U.S. free enterprise system, suggesting it thrives best absent excessive government intervention. "Some board members themselves acknowledged this morning that the process for revising curriculum standards in Texas is seriously broken, with politics and personal agendas dominating just about every decision," said Kathy Miller, president of the Texas Freedom Network, which advocates for religious freedom. Republican Terri Leo, a member of the powerful Christian conservative voting bloc, called the standards "world class" and "exceptional." Board members argued about the classification of historic periods (still B.C. and A.D., rather than B.C.E. and C.E.); whether students should be required to explain the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its impact on global politics (they will); and whether former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir should be required learning (she will). In addition to learning the Bill of Rights, the board specified a reference to the Second Amendment right to bear arms in a section about citizenship in a U.S. government class. Conservatives beat back multiple attempts to include hip-hop as an example of a significant cultural movement. Numerous attempts to add the names or references to important Hispanics throughout history also were denied, inducing one amendment that would specify that Tejanos died at the Alamo alongside Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie. Another amendment deleted a requirement that sociology students "explain how institutional racism is evident in American society." Democrats did score a victory by deleting a portion of an amendment by Republican Don McLeroy suggesting that the civil rights movement led to "unrealistic expectations for equal outcomes." Fort Worth Republican Pat Hardy, a longtime teacher, voted for the new standards, but said she wished the board could work with a more cooperative spirit. "What we've done is we've taken a document that by nature is too long to begin with and then we've lengthened it some more," Hardy said, shortly after the vote. "Those long lists of names that we've put in there ... it's just too long. "I just think we failed to keep that in mind, it's hard for teachers to get through it all." www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-app_n_497440.html
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 30, 2011 23:14:32 GMT -5
The eyes of Texas are upon you, All the live long day. The eyes of Texas are upon you, You cannot get away. Do not think you can escape them, At night, or early in the morn'. The eyes of Texas are upon you, Till Gabriel blows his horn!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 30, 2011 23:15:16 GMT -5
Sounds like someone needs a good dose of Fourth of July parade, Lak. Don't miss out!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 30, 2011 23:17:12 GMT -5
Accuracy! Oh, the humanity! You crack me up, Lak. ;D
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Post by lakhota on Jul 1, 2011 0:58:04 GMT -5
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