6th circuit weighs in on ACA

[EVT1]

www.nytimes.com/2011/06/30/us/30health.html

As they look ahead to the Supreme Court, the law’s defenders can take encouragement from the concurring opinion written by Judge Jeffrey S. Sutton, an appointee of President George W. Bush who is typically considered conservative on questions of constitutional reach. '

After acknowledging the difficulty of pinpointing the limits on Congress’ power to regulate interstate commerce, Judge Sutton wrote: “In my opinion, the government has the better of the arguments.” He added: “Not every intrusive law is an unconstitutionally instrusive law.”

“The activity of foregoing health insurance and attempting to cover the cost of health care needs by self-insuring is no less economic than the activity of purchasing an insurance plan,” the opinion stated.

In his concurrence, Judge Sutton added: “Inaction is action, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, when it comes to financial risk.” Whether an individual buys an insurance policy or not, the judge wrote, “each requires affirmative choices; one is no less active than the other; and both affect commerce.”

But the majority agreed with Neal K. Katyal, the acting United States solicitor general, who argued that individual choices to not purchase insurance, when taken in aggregate, have clear commercial effects because they shift the cost of caring for the uninsured to other payers.

The judges adopted Mr. Katyal’s argument that because the need for health care is unpredictable, it is impossible for individuals to opt out of the market. And they agreed that cost-shifting was inevitable so long as the federal government required hospitals to treat those who show up with life-threatening conditions.

[Deleted]

I could care less who appointed him, Obamacare is going to the SCOTUS, and it will be shut down. If not, it will be defunded. The new POTUS will also have some input. This country can't afford this crap. Something needs to happen, and Obamacare is not it. No whining now that Repubs do not offer solutions, unless you google it and post links that show you have actually listened to anything a Repub said about healthcare. Obamacare will bankrupt this country, and I hope I never have the chance to tell you I told you so.

[EVT1]

1) Why can't we afford it?
2) Obama will be the next potus so that's out- thank a tea partier.
3) I quit listening to republicans and their BS about reforming health care back in the Clinton days- they never have and never will support any real reform
4) We are in this giant hole because of republicans, Obama is trying to get us out
5) Scotus is going to affirm it anyway and it will get funded-cry as the right might- heck, as sick of the country is with their same old same old screw the poor and give tax cuts to the rich routine, add the current 'only the ultra far right may apply' standards, and I doubt they are going to have the numbers in 2012 to do much of anything.

[handyman2]

EVT1: I am an independent but a little advice if I may. I would not bet any serious money on Obama getting a second term.

[EVT1]

Jun 29, 2011 19:36:15 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

EVT1: I am an independent but a little advice if I may. I would not bet any serious money on Obama getting a second term.

Who can beat him? I haven't seen anyone I would touch with a ten foot pole (which incidently is way too short anyway to reach that far to the right where practically all of the contenders are).

I'm an independant as well- really more libertarian left, which means around here I am a liberal-as is anyone else that doesn't follow the conservative agenda 100% these days.

[handyman2]

EVT1: My own opinion, I think Romney will get a lot of liberal votes away from Obama. Why, because they think he will keep the healthcare issue alive which some I know worry that Obama will not stand up for. Obama already seems to be retreating back away from it. If Romney does get those votes Obama cannot win because he will not carry the new England area. Just my view

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...I was chatting with a conservative friend recently... we were talking about some of the left-leaning Hollywood types who threatened to leave the country if Bush was elected...

...well, my friend said that they now understood the desire to "take your ball and go" and that if the new healthcare law is not overturned, they would likely "manifest destiny" themselves to another country... they felt that strongly about keeping our govt. out of their healthcare...

...can't say I blame them...

[EVT1]

Well, I've yet to hear a cogent argument about what exactly is so wrong or so bad about the reform act- and even the most hate filled rants about it haven't contained a single reason worth leaving the country over. And to where- everywhere else has universal health care, and it is much better than our meager reforms.

Maybe ask your friend just how the government is 'in their health care'. They are probably just misinformed about the law like half of the country. It's done, it's a solid improvement, time to move along. People are geting wise to it, and as they continue to do so during the implementation, the conservatives by continuing to fight it do so at their peril.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Jun 29, 2011 22:33:49 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Well, I've yet to hear a cogent argument about what exactly is so wrong or so bad about the reform act- and even the most hate filled rants about it haven't contained a single reason worth leaving the country over. And to where- everywhere else has universal health care, and it is much better than our meager reforms.

Maybe ask your friend just how the government is 'in their health care'. They are probably just misinformed about the law like half of the country. It's done, it's a solid improvement, time to move along. People are geting wise to it, and as they continue to do so during the implementation, the conservatives by continuing to fight it do so at their peril.

...well, I don't want it, either... the feds don't belong "in our healthcare" and "in our bedrooms" and "in our paychecks" and "in our business" and...

...call it a "straw that breaks the camel's back" argument, but, imo, the reform act isn't the problem in and of itself... it's that it was passed at all, in the way it passed, that is just as crazy...

...it's said that a govt. big enough to give you everything can take everything... and giving them this greenlight into our health records and options will let federal bureaucracy "get under our skin," quite literallly...

[EVT1]

Well, I don't want insurance companies in our healthcare- but since we don't have the sack to shut them down I'm fine with a giant dose of government regulation to help out the consumers. Again- what specificly is bad? Government intrusion is not specific or even accurate- it is really only intruding on the insurers- not even that much really as they pretty much wrote the law. It was a deal with the devil-but it is better than what we had.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

>>> Well, I don't want insurance companies in our healthcare- <<<

...why not?


>>> but it is better than what we had. <<<

...not imo...


>>> It was a deal with the devil- <<<

...well, it is that...

[Shirina]

I have talked to a number of people who live in Europe ... Britons, Dutch, Finns, etc. Most of them have a healthy (note, healthy, not paranoid) mistrust of their respective governments, as well. I've watched them argue back and forth about their domestic policies, and each of these nations have their own version of leftists and rightists.

But when the rubber meets the road, every one -- every SINGLE one of them -- love their NHS system. Sure, they admit that, in some cases, reform is needed or that measures could be implemented to make it more efficient. However, no one I've encountered, even the radical rightists, have claimed they want to privatize their health care system. Not a single one. I repeat ... no one! These folks might be at each others' throats over every issue, but when I've asked about health care privatization, they all came together with a resounding NO! In fact, several folks I've talked to called our system "barbaric" and "backward."

What they're NOT doing is complaining about long wait times or bad service or incompetent doctors. You know, all the myths and rhetoric that the conservatives in THIS country like to throw around about government-run health care. They may grumble a bit about a higher tax rate, but at the end of the day, they know what it is they're paying for.

The facts are that 7 out of 10 people will suffer from a critical illness at least once in their lives. My guess is that the 3 out of 10 who don't suffer a critical illness most likely die young enough to avoid the inevitable health issues brought on by old age. What this means is that, unless you die suddenly at a relatively young age, you WILL need advanced health care, and those folks overseas rest assured knowing they will get it!

In this country, many people will not, and growing old is a terrifying prospect for those who aren't financially successful. Millions were forced into bankruptcy, lost their homes and their life's savings due to a sudden illness - and most of them had insurance! So while those "socialist anti-American" Europeans can relax in the knowledge that their old age illnesses will be covered, Americans have to wonder how they will afford old age and whether their insurance will cover all that will happen to them.

But, many Americans think maintaining this ridiculous facade of "rugged individualism" is more important than not dying needlessly of some nasty and painful disease.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...well, shirina, talking with others "over there" about their healthcare is informative, just not influential enough... remember how much talking happened over here? the town halls? the editorials? the bumperstickers?

...bottom line, imo, is that we want our apples and they want their oranges... it's a condition love, true, but it's there... and our apple is tied to our civil liberties... and, imo, I just don't see the US accepting "give me liberty or give me oranges."

[handyman2]

Shirina: I would have to respectfully disagree on the enchantment with the UK system. I do not know about the others but having done business involving the UK system I see a lot different picture.

[floridayankee]

Jun 30, 2011 0:45:12 GMT -5 Shirina said:

But when the rubber meets the road, every one -- every SINGLE one of them -- love their NHS system. Sure, they admit that, in some cases, reform is needed or that measures could be implemented to make it more efficient. However, no one I've encountered, even the radical rightists, have claimed they want to privatize their health care system. Not a single one. I repeat ... no one!

Apparently you skip over formerexpat's posts about the British health care system. I don't think he really has much good to say about Brit's UHC.

[Deleted]

How many links have been posted over how many years about the things wrong with Oblamacare?? But they always start it up again-- demanding proof it is bad.. it's been said over and over, link after link after link... so, we don't give you the links over and over and over-- is that then considered a win? No, it means people do not read, do not care to know the truth, and we will vote and pressure our politicians out of this rather than beat it to death on a message board with people that refused to read the links dozens of times before.. No win here. Hard times ahead for Obamacare supporters, even harder for them if we can't stop it. It would ALMOST be fun to let it go through and prove us right, almost, but not quite.

[EVT1]

Jun 30, 2011 10:25:01 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Apparently you skip over formerexpat's posts about the British health care system. I don't think he really has much good to say about Brit's UHC.

One person from one UHC country. So what? Everyone I know from over there is happy with it- plus friends from Australia, France, Ireland, and New Zealand. I had a discussion about it when they were here for a wedding and guess what? No takers for privatizing their systems and they are shocked people go broke over medical bills. It is unheard of over there. But, alas, some one is always gonna bitch about it no matter how good it may be. I guess the super wealthy complain since they have to fly over here to skip line, but that's all I can figure.

[EVT1]

Jun 30, 2011 13:44:25 GMT -5 @krickitt said:

How many links have been posted over how many years about the things wrong with Oblamacare?? But they always start it up again-- demanding proof it is bad.. it's been said over and over, link after link after link... so, we don't give you the links over and over and over-- is that then considered a win? No, it means people do not read, do not care to know the truth, and we will vote and pressure our politicians out of this rather than beat it to death on a message board with people that refused to read the links dozens of times before.. No win here. Hard times ahead for Obamacare supporters, even harder for them if we can't stop it. It would ALMOST be fun to let it go through and prove us right, almost, but not quite.

1000's of links, mostly full of shit, but links shminks. I ask again- what specifically is so bad about the reform bill?

Hearing crickets Krickitt.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

...maybe I'm the one on ignore then?

...the feds don't belong "in our healthcare" and "in our bedrooms" and "in our paychecks" and "in our business" and even if they did, we can't afford it right now... we've gone a couple centuries without it, so what's a couple more decades? (if we can first cure climate change challenges, that is, right?)

[formerexpat]

Opting out of the market may not be the decision some made if they had more a la carte plans that catered to peoples needs.

We need to do a better job at making catastrophic plans available to people.

And give the same tax benefit to those that buy their own plan instead of through the employer. That's just dumb.

One person from one UHC country. So what? Everyone I know from over there is happy with it- plus friends from Australia, France, Ireland, and New Zealand. I had a discussion about it when they were here for a wedding and guess what? No takers for privatizing their systems and they are shocked people go broke over medical bills. It is unheard of over there. But, alas, some one is always gonna bitch about it no matter how good it may be. I guess the super wealthy complain since they have to fly over here to skip line, but that's all I can figure.

So your experience at a wedding for a day with, what I assume were relatively young and healthy people apparently trumps my living in a UHC country for 2 years. Okay

I could sit here all day and give you examples of people that I've personally known from my short time in another country that, for example, waited 2 years to get ACL surgery or 18 months to get a hip replaced, cataract surgeries or even a guy from SA that I knew that broke a leg while skiing in France and had to have it broken again and reset when he returned to SA because they f***ed it up so badly. His words "don't ever fu**in go to a hospital in France".

Find yourself an international expatriate board and ask them about UHC in the country they live. You rarely find people that advocate the system finds it's way here.

Here you go - have a blast and do some research for yourself rather than claiming you know what you're talking about without having actually lived it: www.expatforum.com/expats/

The healthcare system was what brought my wife and me home. Our experience was horrible with the healthcare system. We had private insurance but all pregnancies must go through the UHC. Our housing was paid for while we were over there and we were traveling across Europe somewhere every 2-4 weeks. Don't underestimate how bad a healthcare system would have to be for people to give up that kind of good life. In our specific case, we probably would have lost our first son had we stayed in the British healthcare system, so don't try to discuss with me what your perceived notions of a healthcare system are. Live it and then come talk to me.

I've met plenty of people from plenty of countries and most aren't pleased with their country's health care. Not sure how you found a room full of people from other countries that were so happy with theirs. Then again, if your sharing information from discredited studies about medical bankruptcies in the US, then I guess it's easier to get your audience to agree that they like their system.

Just so you can alleviate your naivety: theconservativepost.com/WordPress/?p=1940

This site is full of stories that were part of my daily ride in to work while I lived in London about stories of people that were not happy with their system.

[formerexpat]

But when the rubber meets the road, every one -- every SINGLE one of them -- love their NHS system.

Clearly you recognize the logical fallacy in this statement, right? I'm guessing most people here have passed their intro course to Philosophy.

We've already demonstrated before that there is roughly 10m people without insurance that, as a country, we need to find a way to insure. Increasing your costs by several hundred billion a year is not the way to insure those people.