It's Time to Question the MORALITY of High Taxes

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Conservatives are going to win the green-eyeshade discussion every time. Conservatives have FACTS on their side. But there's something else even more powerful than the facts- and that is that conservatives are objectively, morally correct on taxation.

The argument from the left whenever the idea of cutting spending comes up is usually a MORAL argument. Their argument is that the spending is morally justified- that their goal of being compassionate towards so-called 'needy' people outweighs the fiscal concerns and so the rest of us who know better should just roll over.

But how compassionate is it to those from whom the money is taken at the point of a gun?

What percenatage of a person's wealth and income can be confiscated before it becomes a crime?

So, we're not going to discuss who should pay what here. We're not going to discuss the stimulative effect of low taxes, and a lighter burden of government. So, no arguments about if you take so much- it'll disincentivize work and risk taking. Again, we know the facts. What I want to know is where our HEARTS are on this topic-- how much can the government take?

We're also NOT going to discuss the type of taxation-- for our purposes we're sticking to income (income taxes) and wealth (inheritance, and other asset-based taxes that may or may not be levied)

I want to know- PURELY AS A PERCENTAGE what everyone thinks is MORALLY right, and at what point AS A PERCENTAGE the government has taken too much?

I'm somewhere between God- who only needs 10% and 25% as the absolute maximum anyone should pay. I think we could probably settle on 15% before I'd get my eyebrows raised. 25% is too high, but I think could be justified. Over 25% is tyrannical theft.

[ugonow]

We're also NOT going to discuss the type of taxation-- for our purposes we're sticking to income (income taxes) and wealth (inheritance, and other asset-based taxes that may or may not be levied)

In that case, why not zero percent? You can always make up for it in other taxes, like Reagan had to when he lowered income taxes. Zero percent sounds nice and moral.

[swamp]

Jun 21, 2011 8:56:18 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Conservatives are going to win the green-eyeshade discussion every time.

Now if you could get them to stop screeching about gay marriage and abortion and other social issues, I'd agree with you.

[Deleted]

Jun 21, 2011 9:05:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jun 21, 2011 8:56:18 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Conservatives are going to win the green-eyeshade discussion every time.

Now if you could get them to stop screeching about gay marriage and abortion and other social issues, I'd agree with you.

Paul is now in favor of gay marriage. Didn't you see his F- it post?

[swamp]

Jun 21, 2011 9:06:51 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jun 21, 2011 9:05:50 GMT -5 swamp said:

Now if you could get them to stop screeching about gay marriage and abortion and other social issues, I'd agree with you.

Paul is now in favor of gay marriage. Didn't you see his F- it post?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.................

[Deleted]

My father is gay.

[swamp]

Jun 21, 2011 9:08:55 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

My father is gay.

Good for him!

[Deleted]

Jun 21, 2011 9:12:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jun 21, 2011 9:08:55 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

My father is gay.

Good for him!

He is not really gay, that is just from Seinfeld.

Although he could be gay and is just hiding it. Who really knows?

[Deleted]

So... to you morality is a question of percentages? ...

[bubblyandblue]

"So, no arguments about if you take so much- it'll disincentivize work and risk taking. Again, we know the facts."
"We're also NOT going to discuss the type of taxation"
Palm, no offense to you but, I doubt many have a clue about all the taxes or what the results are (you presume to know the facts) and, In my opinion, the most important thing to discuss is what gets taxed - if its speculation income 100% tax - morally its the right thing to do - If it's labor and capital producing a tangible thing then 0% tax is the moral thing.

[Deleted]

10/15% sounds good to me for countries defense, roads, etc. Some of the other social programs like PP etc, should not be paid with tax dollars. Did you know that there is a federally funded program called "essential air service" for small rural airports. Yes, you're paying for air service to small airports. There are at least 3 of them within 75 miles of my house.

[swamp]

Jun 21, 2011 9:14:20 GMT -5 oped said:

So... to your morality is a question of percentages? ...

Looks like I can violate 25% of the ten commandments but still reserve a place in Heaven.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 21, 2011 9:01:20 GMT -5 ugonow said:

We're also NOT going to discuss the type of taxation-- for our purposes we're sticking to income (income taxes) and wealth (inheritance, and other asset-based taxes that may or may not be levied)

In that case, why not zero percent? You can always make up for it in other taxes, like Reagan had to when he lowered income taxes. Zero percent sounds nice and moral.

To clarify- we're going to assume an income tax. Not a shift. And we're ONLY discussing how much is too much / what would be appropriate.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 21, 2011 9:14:20 GMT -5 oped said:

So... to your morality is a question of percentages? ...

No. We The People sit upon the throne in this country. We reserve all rights and power to ourselves. We are sovereign individuals. Together, we've agreed to delegate certain powers and outsource certain jobs to our servants in the federal government.

Our servants have repeatedly and incessantly asked us if they can have more and more from us.

I'm asking at what point, as a percentage of our income and wealth, are they asking for too much?

[swamp]

We the People have voted ourselves into spending oblivion. Don't tell me the 47% of people who don't pay any income tax are going to be happy to start paying something.

[bubblyandblue]

Well, I would then not answer because it does nothing to further an economic structure that is fundamentaly distorted through privalege, monopoly and speculation. Further, all taxes are paid by the consumer - most consumers are also producers (work) and, are thus taxed twice - so Palm, get me started on figuring out what my income tax today actually is?

[swamp]

::I'm asking at what point, as a percentage of our income and wealth, are they asking for too much?::

How, exactly, am I supposed to answer that? All answers are completely subjective.
I think 10% would be great for me, but then I'd be sticking it to a few of my friends who don't make as much as me and probably don't pay much tax at all.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 21, 2011 9:15:36 GMT -5 @bubblyandblue said:

"So, no arguments about if you take so much- it'll disincentivize work and risk taking. Again, we know the facts."
"We're also NOT going to discuss the type of taxation"
Palm, no offense to you but, I doubt many have a clue about all the taxes or what the results are (you presume to know the facts) and, In my opinion, the most important thing to discuss is what gets taxed - if its speculation income 100% tax - morally its the right thing to do - If it's labor and capital producing a tangible thing then 0% tax is the moral thing.

I am fine with this discussion- it's totally valid, and we agree on it. I just don't want to discuss that. It seems to be widely accepted that we have to keep an income tax, and there's a certain moral argument about all the compassion we should have to take money from some and give it to others. So, fine- let's have the system. How much is too much to take?

I'm mainly curious to hear from the liberals. I want to know if they'll actually say thing I think they think like "100% over $500K a year" or some such stuff.

[Deleted]

Jun 21, 2011 9:19:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jun 21, 2011 9:14:20 GMT -5 oped said:

So... to your morality is a question of percentages? ...

Looks like I can violate 25% of the ten commandments but still reserve a place in Heaven.

You should become a Christian. Christians can violate 100% of the ten commandments and still reserve a place in Heaven.

[swamp]

Jun 21, 2011 9:41:43 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Jun 21, 2011 9:19:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

Looks like I can violate 25% of the ten commandments but still reserve a place in Heaven.

You should become a Christian. Christians can violate 100% of the ten commandments and still reserve a place in Heaven.

I'm Catholic, I all have to do is go to confession after sinning and I'm golden. Giving some money to the church doesn't hurt, either.

[swamp]

Jun 21, 2011 9:40:40 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jun 21, 2011 9:15:36 GMT -5 @bubblyandblue said:

"So, no arguments about if you take so much- it'll disincentivize work and risk taking. Again, we know the facts."
"We're also NOT going to discuss the type of taxation"
Palm, no offense to you but, I doubt many have a clue about all the taxes or what the results are (you presume to know the facts) and, In my opinion, the most important thing to discuss is what gets taxed - if its speculation income 100% tax - morally its the right thing to do - If it's labor and capital producing a tangible thing then 0% tax is the moral thing.

I am fine with this discussion- it's totally valid, and we agree on it. I just don't want to discuss that. It seems to be widely accepted that we have to keep an income tax, and there's a certain moral argument about all the compassion we should have to take money from some and give it to others. So, fine- let's have the system. How much is too much to take?

I'm mainly curious to hear from the liberals. I want to know if they'll actually say thing I think they think like "100% over $500K a year" or some such stuff.

Am I a liberal? I'm having a political identity crisis.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 21, 2011 9:40:35 GMT -5 swamp said:

::I'm asking at what point, as a percentage of our income and wealth, are they asking for too much?::

How, exactly, am I supposed to answer that? All answers are completely subjective.
I think 10% would be great for me, but then I'd be sticking it to a few of my friends who don't make as much as me and probably don't pay much tax at all.

You can include a graduated income tax. You can say 0% for some people-- I'm just curious what your max is?

If I make $5 million a year, can they take 50%? 75%? over a certain amount? I would argue it does not matter. That at some point-- for me it's 25% everything you earn no matter how much it is is YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY TO KEEP and government's job is to PROTECT it, not TAKE it.

[Deleted]

I would say 50%. I think someone should be able to keep a majority of what they make.

[ugonow]

No,I think churches officially set the moral tithing rate at 10 percent.

[pig]

WCP are you not a man of faith? Doesn't it clearly state that "Give unto Ceaser what is his and give unto God what is his" or some such. Money is not to be revered and hoarded but simply a device of man. You shouldn't complain about giving this material (money) to the government.

[swamp]

Jun 21, 2011 9:46:39 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jun 21, 2011 9:40:35 GMT -5 swamp said:

::I'm asking at what point, as a percentage of our income and wealth, are they asking for too much?::

How, exactly, am I supposed to answer that? All answers are completely subjective.
I think 10% would be great for me, but then I'd be sticking it to a few of my friends who don't make as much as me and probably don't pay much tax at all.

You can include a graduated income tax. You can say 0% for some people-- I'm just curious what your max is?

If I make $5 million a year, can they take 50%? 75%? over a certain amount? I would argue it does not matter. That at some point-- for me it's 25% everything you earn no matter how much it is is YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY TO KEEP and government's job is to PROTECT it, not TAKE it.

I don't know how to answer this because I don't really see taxation as a moral issue. I see the world much differently than you do. I don't think my way is better or worse than yours, just different.

[bubblyandblue]

"It seems to be widely accepted that we have to keep an income tax,"
I am a liberal - although by saying that I have no idea what your definition of liberal is - however I do not accept that an income tax is something we have to keep for a balanced budget - I think we need to take an un-politicized look at what is taxed.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 21, 2011 9:49:32 GMT -5 @pig said:

WCP are you not a man of faith? Doesn't it clearly state that "Give unto Ceaser what is his and give unto God what is his" or some such. Money is not to be revered and hoarded but simply a device of man. You shouldn't complain about giving this material (money) to the government.

God loves you Piggy! And I thank Him you brought this up. WE THE PEOPLE are Ceasar here. The federal government is the palace servant. ALL MONEY is ours. ONLY what we allocate to our servants may be used by our servants.

They have borrowed from our children and grandchildren- who did not authorize borrowing (borrowing IS taxing) and therefore it is taxation without representation, the very founding issue of the United States.

[ugonow]

They have borrowed from our children and grandchildren- who did not authorize borrowing (borrowing IS taxing) and therefore it is taxation without representation, the very founding issue of the United States.

Uh huh...and what did they imediatly do to come up with funds to pay France back with?

[jkapp]

Jun 21, 2011 9:14:20 GMT -5 oped said:

So... to you morality is a question of percentages? ...

I think the question is what is the line between "skin in the game" and theft.