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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 8:19:05 GMT -5
Actually, no we really don't have the right to be telling a woman she can't use illegal drugs or commit suicide.
Well take your thinking to it's logical conclusion. We shouldn't tell anyone that they can't do anything right? I mean whose to tell you you can't kill someone? Now I already know what you're going to say "they aren't hurting anyone by doing x" That's not true either. Doing illegal drugs encourages theft, delinquency etc which effects others.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:20:06 GMT -5
Please look up the legal definition of murder (it varies by locale) and then tell me what in the definition does not apply to abortion. There is nothing in the law regarding the legality of abortion. It was cleverly caged under "right to privacy". Go ahead Arch, you seem pretty confident. The legal definition has been clarified by minds far greater than mine.
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 8:21:39 GMT -5
Then why are you arguing it with me? So you can't or fail to answer my question with a dodge?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 21, 2011 8:22:16 GMT -5
Perhaps it doesn't work for you; however, that doesn't mean it isn't perfectly feasible, and reasonable to others. You have a stance on the issue. It's your stance and you stand by it. That's a good thing. It is not, however, necessary for others to agree with your stance. Some may accept the premise that aborting a fetus prior to viability is not murder. The law backs this stance at this point in time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:22:28 GMT -5
Then why are you arguing it with me? because you are arguing and I like to argue. Do I need to pay you?
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 8:27:18 GMT -5
It is not, however, necessary for others to agree with your stance.
Where did I ever ever say anyone had to agree with my opinions? I simply made the statement that anyone who believe in abortion yet also believes killing a fetus is a crime has an illogical and inconsistent belief system. That is a fact. Whether or not you agree with this statement matters not to me.
Archie, I'm asking you to back up your statement that the law states abortion is legal. That's all. I'm not asking for you to delve through legal libraries. Just google the law and see what it says.
"Some may accept the premise that aborting a fetus prior to viability is not murder"
You may accept this just as you should also accept the fact that you are probably not viable (just like a fetus) to live without others assistance.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:30:08 GMT -5
Archie, I'm asking you to back up your statement that the law states abortion is legal. That's all. I'm not asking for you to delve through legal libraries. Just google the law and see what it says. I am backing up my statement by stating that smarter legal minds than I have agreed that abortion is legal and I am relying on their expertise as my backup. I cannot make a stronger argument on my own merits.
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 8:33:07 GMT -5
Archie I'm not asking you whether or not abortion is legal. We surely agree that is the case in the US currently. What I'm taking issue with is that you seem to state that it is explicitly stated in the books somewhere that "Abortion is legal". That's not what the law states rather how it is interpreted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:35:51 GMT -5
He plead to manslaughter... absoluately NOT the same as being convicted of manslaughter...
So pig, you can't see the difference between a woman seeking out an abortion and a man committing violent assult by kicking her in the stomach ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:35:59 GMT -5
Archie I'm not asking you whether or not abortion is legal. We surely agree that is the case in the US currently. What I'm taking issue with is that you seem to state that it is explicitly stated in the books somewhere that "Abortion is legal". That's not what the law states rather how it is interpreted. I agree. No, wait. I do not agree.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2011 8:36:30 GMT -5
... I simply made the statement that anyone who believe in abortion yet also believes killing a fetus is a crime has an illogical and inconsistent belief system. ... A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:37:41 GMT -5
The illegal status of drugs encourages theft, crime, delinquency...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:38:31 GMT -5
... I simply made the statement that anyone who believe in abortion yet also believes killing a fetus is a crime has an illogical and inconsistent belief system. ... A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. Ralph Waldo Emerson I like it. Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to remember it.
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 8:43:23 GMT -5
So pig, you can't see the difference between a woman seeking out an abortion and a man committing violent assult by kicking her in the stomach ? Where did you see me say this? "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. Ralph Waldo Emerson" A person whose belief system is inconistent is inherently wrong and confused -Dr. Pig. "Our rights being taken from us all is what has so many in this country up in arms." Fortunately most don't believe in one's right to murder anther human being.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 21, 2011 8:50:34 GMT -5
NY Penal Law §10.00(7) A Person is defined as a human being, and where appropriate, a public or private corporation, an unincorporated association, a partnership, a government, or governmental entity. Case law further defines a human being as "having been born"
There is a case where a man shot a pregnant woman who was 36 weeks pregnant, the fetus was delivered live but later died. It was a homicide because the child was born live.
There are also sections of law called Abortion 1st and Abortion 2nd which pertain to the killing of a child/fetus in utero.
Penal Law §125.45 Abortion 1st: When he commits upon a female more than 24 weeks pregnant an abortional act that causes a miscarriage, unless said act is justifiable under PL §125.05(3).
There you go Pig and Archie, NY's take on this. I have no idea how other states do it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:50:53 GMT -5
#1: Pig in #19 - Anyone who believes in abortion has no right to be affronted by this story.
Ie. they are the same thing... you can't diferentiate and judge one separately from the other... you have to judge them both the same.
And that is the essence of the 'foolish consistence' ... My belief system is consistent... but the two situations to which you are asking me to apply my belief system, are not the same, so the answer is not the same...
I don't believe in a human being's right to murder another human being. However, a fetus is not a human being. It is only the potential for life.
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 8:53:03 GMT -5
"My belief system is consistent... " No it is not. Thanks Swamp. "However, a fetus is not a human being" Great! Now explain why it isn't. I'm dying to hear how you came to this conclusion. "Ie. they are the same thing... you can't diferentiate and judge one separately from the other... you have to judge them both the same." Silly Oped, that is your quote not mine nor my words.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 21, 2011 8:55:57 GMT -5
::"However, a fetus is not a human being"
Great! Now explain why it isn't. I'm dying to hear how you came to this conclusion::
Because the NY legislature and courts said so. I didn't say that was my view, and my view in this whole clusterfuck is irrelevant, I was just telling you what the applicable law was.
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 8:58:36 GMT -5
"Because the NY legislature and courts said so."
So you are saying that you base your beliefs on legal definitions? If there was a law that said the sky is green would you believe it? I highly doubt Oped read the law and said to himself "that's why I believe a fetus isn't human"? If that were the case he would not believe in legalizing drugs because after all they are illegal which means they are fobidden, right?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 8:58:38 GMT -5
Human beings are LIVING beings... a fetus is not alive, and has no abilty to live as a separate entity... therefore it is not a separate entity... it has the potential to develop into a human being, much as any sperm and egg does... but it is NOT a living entity... and therefore NOT a human being...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 21, 2011 8:59:31 GMT -5
"Because the NY legislature and courts said so." So you are saying that you base your beliefs on legal definitions? If there was a law that said the sky is green would you believe it? I highly doubt Oped read the law and said to himself "that's why I believe a fetus isn't human"? If that were the case he would not believe in legalizing drugs because after all they are illegal which means they are fobidden, right? You can't read, can you? I said I was telling you what NY law was, not my opinion. My opinion is irrelevant.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 9:03:22 GMT -5
"Anyone who believes in abortion has no right to be affronted by this story. "
These are YOUR words Pig... in #19... YOU are saying they are the same... that one must treat them the same... that affront must be felt about both or neither...
The law and court reflects why a fetus is not a human being.
Oped is a she...
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 9:13:28 GMT -5
a fetus is not alive Science would disagree. Oped you're putting words in my mouth I never said an assault was the same as an abortion. You're being inconsistent yet again. And I quote Swamp so you can see she's also being inconsistent: "Because the NY legislature and courts said so."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 9:15:36 GMT -5
I'm with Pig on this one, of course. I just googled "man gets prison for killing fetus" and saw LOTS of sentences. This guy did get off easy with 10 years. I still can't find details on this case anywhere, just the one short article. What kind of laws do we have when one person goes to prison for doing what another can do legally? I saw one where a guy got life for stomping the woman's stomach and killing twins that they didn't want. SHE got nothing, he got life, because she had a RIGHT to kill her babies, but HE didn't. I wish people would stop killing babies, but they won't, because the law has convinced some people that it is perfectly okay to kill your children, as long as you do it at the right time...it really makes no sense at all.
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 9:17:00 GMT -5
I can see I'm not the only great thinker on these boards Krickitt!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 9:17:20 GMT -5
Then what was the intent of your statement? ... Why is it that someone who believes in abortion has no right to be affornted by the story of this assault?
Science would NOT disagree with me Pig... you can... but you are not science...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 9:17:55 GMT -5
Pig,
Just be happy knowing that everyone who decides to have an abortion or performs an abortion is going to hell (unless they repent and accept Jesus Christ as their savior, or meet the criteria as prescribed by their religion) and will burn in eternity.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 21, 2011 9:18:14 GMT -5
::And I quote Swamp so you can see she's also being inconsistent::
OK, now you're just being an ass. I didn't give any freakin' opinion. I told you what NY law is. Stop trying to drag me into this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 9:19:22 GMT -5
A fetus is not alive, oped?? How do you figure that one? Of course a fetus is alive. I just woke up, Pig, not awake enough for a good abortion fray.. but you are doing just fine..
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Post by pig on Jun 21, 2011 9:22:31 GMT -5
"Science would NOT disagree with me Pig... you can... but you are not science... "
I can see you never had a course in biology. Please look up the definition of life and you'll find I'm quite right. Swamp, you inserted yourself into this and now you're calling me names and trying to tell me I "dragged" you into this? That's silly and inconsistent.
Archie you're being so typical of an abortion supporter who sees that his arguments are inconsistent so they immediately cry religion. I have not and do not need religion to tell me the murder of an innocent human being is wrong. I'm sorry you feel one needs religion in order to have morals.
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