Is there any point where police might be wrong?

[OldCoyote]

After reading about the swat team raid on the marine's house
in Tucson AZ, I started looking at other police raids.
Tucson marine.
www.kvoa.com/news/pcso-swat-incident-suspect-did-not-fire-at-deputies/
Police shoot seven year old girl
www.truthistreason.net/detroit-swat-team-shoot-kill-7-year-old-girl
Police shoot mayor's dogs in blotched raid.
articles.cnn.com/2008-08-07/justice/mayor.warrant_1_dead-dogs-cheye-calvo-trinity-tomsic?_s=PM:CRIME
After every raid police do an internal investigation, A spokesmen will come out and say we did everything right given the circumstances.
Is there a point where police might be wrong?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

The police are frequently wrong. Even when they're "right" they are often carrying out a mission based upon bad policy or someone else's poor judgment.

[handyman2]

I hate to beat up on the police, they are under tremendous pressure and people who are seemlingly more prone to violent reactions and some just plain crazy. But yes they do make mistakes. Sometimes from bad info and a rush to judgement about some circumstances.

[fairlycrazy23]

It is difficult for me to blame swat, they are supposedly only brought in when there is a serious threat, but swat is being used far too much now, it wasn't really all that long ago there wasn't such a thing as swat.

But my main point is at least two of these stories are drug related, how many more deaths can we blame on the drug war?

[floridayankee]

Jun 14, 2011 8:54:44 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

It is difficult for me to blame swat, they are supposedly only brought in when there is a serious threat, but swat is being used far too much now, it wasn't really all that long ago there wasn't such a thing as swat.

But my main point is at least two of these stories are drug related, how many more deaths can we blame on the drug war?

SWAT is being used more because people are becoming bolder. We have had five officers shot and killed in the Tampa Bay (3 in St. Pete, 2 in Tampa) area within the past year in unrelated shootings.

[privateinvestor]

Is there any point where police might be wrong?

Yes and what is your point?? A perfect example recently in Oakland was a BART Cop who shot an unarmed man laying on the ground in a BART station. His excuse for the shooting was he thought he used his Taser Gun and not his revolver....

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 14, 2011 8:40:56 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

I hate to beat up on the police, they are under tremendous pressure and people who are seemlingly more prone to violent reactions and some just plain crazy. But yes they do make mistakes. Sometimes from bad info and a rush to judgement about some circumstances.

The police need to be reminded of their mission- to serve and protect. The adversarial relationship that currently exists between the police and people in many communities has at its roots an almost entirely one-sided cause: an increase in "show of force" and "crackdowns".

The average person should NEVER encounter a police officer. But with drug laws, seat belt laws, smoking bans, and new non-offense offenses being created every day, the police and the community members are increasingly forced to interact as a result of matters that have little to do with protecting life and property-- the PRIMARY duty of police.

In fact, police are frequently tasked precisely to INTERFERE with a person's rights, rather than protect them-- so it's no surprise that the police are being greeted with an increasingly frustrated, angry- and well-prepared populace.

[Virgil Showlion]

Coyote, you might find the following interesting: Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

It looks like they have several hundred recorded.

[jarhead1976]

Palmbeachpaul:
"The police need to be reminded of their mission- to serve and protect. The adversarial relationship that currently exists between the police and people in many communities has at its roots an almost entirely one-sided cause: an increase in "show of force" and "crackdowns".

The average person should NEVER encounter a police officer. But with drug laws, seat belt laws, smoking bans, and new non-offense offenses being created every day, the police and the community members are increasingly forced to interact as a result of matters that have little to do with protecting life and property-- the PRIMARY duty of police.

In fact, police are frequently tasked precisely to INTERFERE with a person's rights, rather than protect them-- so it's no surprise that the police are being greeted with an increasingly frustrated, angry- and well-prepared populace.[/quote]........................ I agree their main purpose is to protect the status quo, without regard for the constitution and the civil liberties it guarantees the american citizenship.

[marshabar1]

I couldn't even watch The Shield with my husband. Too much information. And I have a feeling it was accurate.

[billisonboard]

Musical interlude:

[marshabar1]

Jun 14, 2011 10:11:12 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

This topic is interesting, and a little OT for this thread, but DD and I were just talking about our town's police force. Over the 40+ years living here we've watched many officers come and go, many we knew personally as kids, one was an ex relative. One thing we found in common with so many was their need to feel superior over others, especially former classmates who had earlier treated them badly. Once on the force, many of these officers (not all) became complete arse holes who thought nothing of breaking the very laws they were suppose to enforce. One actually admitted, "Now I can get even." It's like they did a complete personality turn about, going from introverted nerds into terminators. I don't know how these officers passed their psychological assessment tests, as anyone who knows them can tell that the only reason some took the job was to fill some emotional void or get even with the world. Some of these young men, flunking their first PS tests were able to pass later. How is that possible? Either you're emotionally fit for the job or your not. Does ones personality change between tests? Anyway, maybe it's just the officers I see in our town, but my point is I think we need stricter testing and background checks of officer candidates. OMG!!! I know one officer who used to torture his cats.

That's scary, wolf. There's a lot of old boy stuff in the force. Bound to be. In my hometown the C.O.P. used to be the go to guy to buy beer for the younger high schoolers. I've always heard there's a fine line.


One thing that is ticking me off in the past couple years is I swear patrolmen work the Sunday morning crowd more than at any time of the week. The roads are crawling with patrolmen doing business as we make our way to church EVERY Sunday.

[billisonboard]

Jun 14, 2011 10:47:38 GMT -5 @marshabar1 said:

///

One thing that is ticking me off in the past couple years is I swear patrolmen work the Sunday morning crowd more than at any time of the week. The roads are crawling with patrolmen doing business as we make our way to church EVERY Sunday.

That isn't something new. That started with the Romans.

[txbo]

We had an incident across the street from my house during the winter. The house was empty and for sale but a 20 something, girl and two young guys lived there. One day we had 13 police cruisers, 1 motorcycle cop, 1 ambulance and 1 fire truck at that house. They had the guns out and surrounded the house the girl came out was handcuffed and place on the frozen ground for almost one hour she was in shorts and a t-shirt. One of the guys climbed on top of the roof from the second story balcony, he was afraid they would shoot him. The other kid was so scared he past out and reason for the ambulance. If an ambulance is dispatched a big fire truck is also dispatched. All this for three squatters. We have far too many cops here and very little crime.

A few years ago, a cop and his cop girlfriend staged a shooting, she shot him in his vest and they reported that they had a shootout with some bad guys. What a bunch of morons.

[fairlycrazy23]

I don't believe that is the job of the police to 'serve and protect' it is to enforce laws and apprehend suspects.

There protection aspect simply comes from the fact that you might be deterred in hurting someone else because you don't want to be apprehended by the police. And they can do other things that might protect us, but the individual needs to protect themselves, there loved ones and there property.

[cme1201]

I have much respect for Law Enforcement officers, can they/do they make mistakes, yes of course they do. When something like this goes down, cops feel just as bad by a bad shoot (not bad as in they did something wrong, bad as in wrong information leads to the death of a person).

In 2009 we had 2 suicides by cop, 1 was right in front of the courthouse the other was at the local skating rink. The cops have been hounded (2 years later and the final appeal for damages against the 2 officers who pulled the trigger is still being worked out). Unfortunately we don't have all the information, the Marine could have lost his life due to a simple error when filling out the warrant ( a 4 being misconstrued as a 9 to use an example)

[handyman2]

They are taught in todays world to get instant control of a situation by shouting loudly and acting tough. In some situations like a raid on a known drug or felons house I can see the reasoning but in many situations I have seen and believe it creates more problems for the police.
Many times a calm confident demeanor to me can be more affective than a lot of shouting, pushing and shoving. In a traffic stop they need to be cautious but not belligerant. Personally I think some act the way they do because they are scared and are trying to hide it.
I remember one case where a young officer was tussling with a guy trying to get him down. The big cop walked up and said let me handle him. He said to the guy now look you can get down and be cuffed nice and politely or I can put you down hard which do you want? the The old boy just kneeled down and was cuffed no problem.

[OldCoyote]

unflippingbeliveable, (new word that I just learned) Oh where do I start.
These are statements by the officers in a debriefing Officer Hector Iglecias told detectives "And I see pretty much a male subject come out."
" He said he saw an object on the right side of Guerena body before he saw muzzle flashes."
He fired nine or ten rounds.
Notice he does not say that he seen a gun or gun pointed at him, he starts shooting because he see muzzle flashes!
azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_3a30b78e-3afa-5d62-bf4e-9b7fdc5f753c.html
Remember Guerena's gun was on safety and was not fired.

Deputy Kenneth Walsh was the officer that gave the commands Guerena to come out of the house.
He issued a third command to open the door.
He said it took at least a minute to issue the commands before they knocked down the door.
He also recalls muzzle flashes coming from inside the house.

Deputy Christopher Garcia , told investigators he heard Guerena yell something as he came towards the SWAT team holding a rifle.
Garcia began firing when Guerena approached them.
azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_3a30b78e-3afa-5d62-bf4e-9b7fdc5f753c.html

Watching the video , from the time the siren stops and the shooting starts is 24 seconds. Can anyone tell me what is being yelled in the video?? Also, does anyone hear any commands yelled after the door is open? Deputy Garcia said Guerena yelled something,
not stating what was said if he understood at all.
Am I supposed to believe that Guerena heard and understood what was going on in front of his house, after being asleep, in a back bedroom through a closed front door.

In the debriefing with detectives,one SWAT member armed with a rifle said he saw a man in the hall holding a rifle.
The officer said he did not wait for that man to fire first.
On closer questioning, that officer told detectives ..."whether at that point he actually raised the rifle up..I couldn't..."

In the initial debriefing or in the articles that I found none of the officers say that the rifle was pointed at them!
www.kgun9.com/story/14838574/entire-swat-team-says-guerena-fired-at-them