formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 17, 2011 13:29:43 GMT -5
Not enough jobs in the first place - the consequences of government interference.
Selective statistics. Look at the financial statements of those companies before pretending to know about corporate taxes.
I prefer a zero percent corporate tax rate. Require the cost of running the government be placed prominently where citizens are going to see it, like in a sales tax on non-necessary goods. Maybe when people see that 20-30% or more of their income goes to the government to pay for the services they think they get for free, they'll require more from their government than the piss poor product we've been getting.
Just remember your argument about corporate taxes if QEIII happens to be in some form of offshore profit repatriation.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 17, 2011 13:31:06 GMT -5
No, that was not my intent. I'd rather compare the superiority of the US system to that of countries like France and the UK.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:35:30 GMT -5
No, that was not my intent. I'd rather compare the superiority of the US system to that of countries like France and the UK. Why? You want lower taxes in the USA, no? Shouldn't you compare USA to a low tax country then?
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Post by bubblyandblue on Jun 17, 2011 13:38:47 GMT -5
Taxes are used to inhibit things that are unwanted by the community, country etc.... its the effect taxes have. So in the USA we tax production, consumers, workers etc. .... I guess we just don't want those things. Tax anything that does not contribute to our common wealth through the use of labor and capital, remove it from that wich creates wealth through labor and capital.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:38:47 GMT -5
Not enough jobs in the first place - the consequences of government interference. Selective statistics. Look at the financial statements of those companies before pretending to know about corporate taxes. I prefer a zero percent corporate tax rate. Require the cost of running the government be placed prominently where citizens are going to see it, like in a sales tax on non-necessary goods. Maybe when people see that 20-30% or more of their income goes to the government to pay for the services they think they get for free, they'll require more from their government than the piss poor product we've been getting. Just remember your argument about corporate taxes if QEIII happens to be in some form of offshore profit repatriation. Ah, speaking of government interference, let's again go back to Pakistan. The government does shit there. There are hardly any laws nor any enforcement. Guess what the unemployment rate is? Almost 30%. Or how about Afghanistan, which basically has no government, period. Which country do you like better? USA or Afghanistan? As for corporate taxes, I gave you the numbers, and the reason your reject them is because you want a 0% corporate tax? Anything higher than 0% is too high? OK, then corporations should not be able to use any public infrastructure either. Build your own, and see how much that costs.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 13:39:26 GMT -5
Taxes are used to inhibit things that are unwanted by the community, country etc.... its the effect taxes have. So in the USA we tax production, consumers, workers etc. .... I guess we just don't want those things. Tax anything that does not contribute to our common wealth through the use of labor and capital, remove it from that wich creates wealth through labor and capital. Actually taxes are used to run the country.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 17, 2011 14:24:05 GMT -5
You gave numbers for a statistically selective period that may have fit your agenda with legitimate reasons to support why there may have been a perceived decrease in or low effective tax rates for some companies; which would be irrelevant to a business owner when they decide whether to create another job and invest more capital to try and create more profits within a country.
Have you ever personally taken a look at the financial statements of a company like Exxon to see the total taxes paid as a percentage of gross margins excluding taxes? This is a company that is annually vilified by the media outlets for "outrageous" profits but the fact that they've paid no less than 70% taxes for at least the last three years is never mentioned.
That's just stupid. Why would you want corporations to pay taxes, whether 20%, 30% or even 70% like Exxon, when those taxes are going to be passed directly to consumers, clouding the actual costs that it takes for the government to operate.
Do you agree that all taxes are passed to consumers?
Assuming you agree with that basic fact of business operation, what good theory is there behind masking the amount of taxes that are paid by customers and how much the government is really taking from them.
What is your best estimate on the number of people that know the federal tax rate per gallon of gas? Do you personally know your state's per gallon tax on gasoline?
Can you easily calculate your annual tax bill, complete with sales taxes, income taxes, FICA [both employee & employer], etc?
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 17, 2011 14:30:03 GMT -5
No - I can compare the private industry to the public industry within the same country. The public sector has been dragging the health care industry down in this country for the past 45 years with the help of government.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:31:30 GMT -5
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:32:47 GMT -5
No - I can compare the private industry to the public industry within the same country. The public sector has been dragging the health care industry down in this country for the past 45 years with the help of government. So why did you ask me to compare US tax rates and services to UK/France's tax rates and services?
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Post by bubblyandblue on Jun 17, 2011 14:40:40 GMT -5
There is no question that all taxes are paid by the consumer - it's easily provable. We pay taxes for government services - services that we want as a nation. I propose that we tax those things that the nation does not want - IE speculation that was behind our economic collapse, housing speculation, predatory lending, Derivatives detached from actual production, swaps etc. - I mean, when it comes down to it - speculators take (steal) from labor and capital without producing anything that adds to the common wealth. If you get rich by, for instance, holding on to some property that you don't live in and, wait around while prices go up in a bubble, then your source of income should be taxed at 100% because you did not create wealth - you stole it from everyone who did - you didn't employ labor or capital - you stole it from the community - plain and simple - Monopoly is another drain - tax the crap out of it. You know, more times than not, those big donations to charity are money that should be given back because it was stolen, unearned. I don't think social security should be called an entitlement since it was payed for.
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Post by bubblyandblue on Jun 17, 2011 14:49:43 GMT -5
The reason to tax the corporations directly is simple. Corporations do not set prices based on their tax rates. They set prices based on what the market would bear. So taxes are not just a passthrough.
I would say that the corporation is going to go out of business if they don't include taxes as part of the end product price. They include labor (usually a small cost with all this technology advancement) capital cost (equip, taxes, interest) and economic rent (land, rents, leases etc) - If you drive up the cost of buildings, lands you increase the cost of the final product, same with taxes and with labor. Labor is also a consumer so increased labor cost is usually paid with increased consumption by labor.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 17, 2011 14:50:09 GMT -5
I didn't - I suggested sending all liberals to countries that have failed social programs so they can see what they cost and the shitty product they get in return, comparatively speaking.
Sure they're a pass through. Would the market bear as high of a price if there were no taxes? Would competitors not decrease their prices in an attempt to gain market share if they were able to get their ROE without taxes having a negative impact on ROE? Don't be silly.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:51:19 GMT -5
The reason to tax the corporations directly is simple. Corporations do not set prices based on their tax rates. They set prices based on what the market would bear. So taxes are not just a passthrough. I would say that the corporation is going to go out of business if they don't include taxes as part of the end product price. They include labor (usually a small cost with all this technology advancement) capital cost (equip, taxes, interest) and economic rent (land, rents, leases etc) - If you drive up the cost of buildings, lands you increase the cost of the final product, same with taxes and with labor. Labor is also a consumer so increased labor cost is usually paid with increased consumption by labor. Dude, I advice BIG corporations for a living. The pricing and sales guys do not care at all about costs, much less taxes.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 14:53:21 GMT -5
I didn't - I suggested sending all liberals to countries that have failed social programs so they can see what they cost and the shitty product they get in return, comparatively speaking. Sure they're a pass through. Would the market bear as high of a price if there were no taxes? Would competitors not decrease their prices in an attempt to gain market share if they were able to get their ROE without taxes having a negative impact on ROE? Don't be silly. And I suggested that conservatives go to Pakistan to see how a low tax conservative country is pure hell. Dude, please. Price is a matter of supply and demand, not costs and taxes.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 17, 2011 15:07:18 GMT -5
Making the incorrect assumption that low taxes are the reason for the problems in Pakistan rather than fraud and corruption. We've already covered that one.
So the price has no impact on demand? Costs have no impact on supply? Please do explain.
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Post by bubblyandblue on Jun 17, 2011 15:20:21 GMT -5
Dude, I advice BIG corporations for a living. The pricing and sales guys do not care at all about costs, much less taxes.
Well then, if they do not care about what it costs to deliver a product to market then they must be selling and pricing air.
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Post by bubblyandblue on Jun 17, 2011 15:25:13 GMT -5
Advise me how I can suddenly not worry about my production and delivery costs. I get it in the service part of my work and can expect larger margins for exceptional service rendered but, if my clients don't precieve a cost benifit to my services they ain't going to come back.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 17, 2011 15:28:34 GMT -5
Advise me how I can suddenly not worry about my production and delivery costs. I get it in the service part of my work and can expect larger margins for exceptional service rendered but, if my clients don't precieve a cost benifit to my services they ain't going to come back. What is the size of your business?
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Post by bubblyandblue on Jun 17, 2011 15:38:55 GMT -5
Big enough
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2011 15:39:07 GMT -5
You really want to compare the quality of medical care between low tax Pakistan and high tax France/UK? Seriously?
No I don't. You need to check a map. Pakistan the last time I checked wasn't in Europe (unless liberals moved it). Again I was comparing apples to apples not apples to oranges. That would be the U.S. to European social system governments.
I have absolutely no doubt that social safety nets cost a bunch of money. I am totally OK with higher taxes.
And I'm totally in favor of you doing just that. Feel free to pay more with your money. Just don't plan on using my money to pay for you & your poor friends because I just don't like you & your friends well enough to pay for your health care. Maybe......If you were on your deathbed & there was an end in sight I might chip in though.
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Post by bubblyandblue on Jun 17, 2011 15:40:01 GMT -5
My business is split between consulting and construction - commercial
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Post by bubblyandblue on Jun 17, 2011 15:56:18 GMT -5
Further, I don't want to hear about special tax exemptions because I'm a big company - I am against privalege. I don't want to hear about tax selection based on risk analysis on odds of making a 'mistake' on classification where if caught the penalty is nothing crap either. Get me to understand - brass tacks - where I don't need to understand where my unit cost of production is not related to pricing. I willing to listen because I understand that the knowledge I have between my ears is only a tiny fraction of what exists in the known universe - let alone the unknown universe - enlighten me.
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