10 Ways America Has Become A Low-Tax Country

[Mkitty is pro kitty]

Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, UK...

Because Somalia, Honduras, and other third world countries that have low tax rates are so much better. Tell you what, stay in any European country of your choice for a while, then stay in one of those third world countries, and tell us which one you'd prefer.

Oh, and you forgot Germany. World's second biggest importer, has high taxes and regulations.

An entitled society is one that ultimately fails. Every single time.

So those "non-entitled" societies in Africa are such raging successes then? Again stay in an "entitled" country, then a "non-entitled" one and get back to us.

Let's see...according to my records from last year:

Then I saw it 30 or 40 times per day many of which were attached with insults.

Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll just assume those numbers are made up. How long have you people been on the internet?

And there is the tired old liberal response...when losing the argument

Ah, the old self declared victory, another conservative staple.

Ah...probably more liberal ideology that people's pay should be communal property

So you're definition

Ah... more strawman arguments. If there were a strawman tax, there wouldn't be a deficit we couldn't handle or Conservatives would be a lot quieter. Oh, and how are you doing letting children starve in the streets, eh, eh?

How about - libs have nothing to stand on except their "feelings,"

which makes for very poor fiscal policy...as evidenced by our current and future economic issues.

Tired old rhetoric.

Maybe you should look at yourself before criticizing others. Oh wait, that's Konservative Kryptonite. Can't admit to anything! Must point fingers!

equalizing wealth

tax the rich more

You can't see those are two different things can you?

I think that by paying more in FairTax

Before FairTaxes come FairWages.

[cme1201]

[q]Before FairTaxes come FairWages[/q]

I have asked 100 times before and I will ask another 100 times if necessary, What is a fair wage? Is 2x's the Federal Poverty Level considered a "fair" wage?

[Deleted]

Then I saw it 30 or 40 times per day many of which were attached with insults.

Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll just assume those numbers are made up. How long have you people been on the internet?

Mkitty I've been here since the first week. As for "until I see evidence to the contrary", that will never happen. You see pretty much only what you want to see & nothing else.

[floridayankee]

Jun 14, 2011 11:52:42 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

I will ask another 100 times if necessary, What is a fair wage?

That's easy cme.....A fair wage is one that an employer offers and an employee accepts. If nobody accepts the employer's offer then obviously the wage is not fair. If one does not believe their wage is fair, they are free to go find one that is.

Of course it's just easier to whine about low wages than actually improve yourself to the point where you actually deserve a higher wage.

To each their own I guess.

[cme1201]

Jun 14, 2011 12:10:07 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Jun 14, 2011 11:52:42 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

I will ask another 100 times if necessary, What is a fair wage?

That's easy cme.....A fair wage is one that an employer offers and an employee accepts. If nobody accepts the employer's offer then obviously the wage is not fair. If one does not believe their wage is fair, they are free to go find one that is.

Of course it's just easier to whine about low wages than actually improve yourself to the point where you actually deserve a higher wage.

To each their own I guess.

I tend to agree with you FloridaYankee, yet this is the number one argument that I hear for why Big Business or corporations are the big evil guy sitting around demanding that others work for slave wages.

Yet when this simple question is asked it is never answered, or the "answer" you get is based on feeling or "fairness" or some other emotional tug.

What I am looking for from someone who believes that all the worlds problems will end if only a fair wage was instated is to answer what monetary figure would you place as a fair wage? What should a burger flipper at a fast food restaurant make, or the cashier at the local store, the bus boy cleaning your table, the immigrant who cleans the floor in your favorite store.

[floridayankee]

Jun 14, 2011 12:41:56 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

What I am looking for from someone who believes that all the worlds problems will end if only a fair wage was instated is to answer what monetary figure would you place as a fair wage? What should a burger flipper at a fast food restaurant make, or the cashier at the local store, the bus boy cleaning your table, the immigrant who cleans the floor in your favorite store.

You'll never find it. Wages are a business expense, if all workers earning less than $30k/year suddenly had their pay doubled to make it a "fair" wage, it would be the consumer that pays for it. That new "fair wage" would be offset by increase in inflation and will quickly become "unfair" again.

Really, if you want "fair wages", feel free to open a new business that hires twice the people needed, pays double the standard market average for whatever you want done and pays the evil, greedy CEO peanuts.

[cme1201]

Jun 14, 2011 12:54:34 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Jun 14, 2011 12:41:56 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

What I am looking for from someone who believes that all the worlds problems will end if only a fair wage was instated is to answer what monetary figure would you place as a fair wage? What should a burger flipper at a fast food restaurant make, or the cashier at the local store, the bus boy cleaning your table, the immigrant who cleans the floor in your favorite store.

You'll never find it. Wages are a business expense, if all workers earning less than $30k/year suddenly had their pay doubled to make it a "fair" wage, it would be the consumer that pays for it. That new "fair wage" would be offset by increase in inflation and will quickly become "unfair" again.

Really, if you want "fair wages", feel free to open a new business that hires twice the people needed, pays double the standard market average for whatever you want done and pays the evil, greedy CEO peanuts.

And you just touched on my biggest argument for a fair wage, If I pay a burger flipper 15$ hour I will be forced to charge at least 15 for my burger. It's a game that some seem to only want to look at one side and declare its a win if we do this yet they choose to pay no attention to the fact that if an employer must pay more for help they must then in turn ask more for the product that is being offered.

[EVT1]

Jun 14, 2011 12:10:07 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

That's easy cme.....A fair wage is one that an employer offers and an employee accepts. If nobody accepts the employer's offer then obviously the wage is not fair. If one does not believe their wage is fair, they are free to go find one that is.

Only true if there are other options. As I have said before the system demands participation in order for one to survive which is pretty much slavery. Unless I have the option to take a piece of land, build my own house and grow/hunt/fish for my own food then the employer's offer is just take it or leave it. A choice of working for $1/hr vs. starving is not a real choice. Leave it to the GOP and we will all be shopping at the company store.

So maybe a fair wage is one that would convince someone it is better to work for you than rob you.

[cme1201]

"Leave it to the GOP and we will all be shopping at the company store."

Yep, cause you knows those big members of the DNC have no qualms about paying minimum wage to fill slots in there businesses.

[EVT1]

Wal-Mart might make it a reality. Let them get their fingers in banking like they want and see what happens.

[cme1201]

Jun 14, 2011 13:21:19 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Wal-Mart might make it a reality. Let them get their fingers in banking like they want and see what happens.

And yet Hilliary has no issues with anything that Wal-Mart has done in the past, she never worked to unionize wal-mart when she was on the board of directors and help vote down letting unions in.

[EVT1]

I can see the future- 1st Bank of Wally, Wal-Gold & Sachs, Wal-Care hospitals, Wal-Life insurance, Wal-House realty, Wal-Street ;D

[cme1201]

Jun 14, 2011 13:26:51 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I can see the future- 1st Bank of Wally, Wal-Gold & Sachs, Wal-Care hospitals, Wal-Life insurance, Wal-House realty, Wal-Street ;D

Honestly I would rather see that than

1st bank of Government, Government-Sachs investment firm, Government Life Insurance, Governmental Realtors (slogan: We know where you SHOULD live).

Should Wal-Mart do something like this I have the opportunity to not fund them ie, not purchase from them, not allow them hold my financial information, yet I have no recourse should government "step" in and make everyone happy.

[floridayankee]

Jun 14, 2011 13:08:57 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Only true if there are other options.

Self improvement is always an option. Only those wallowing in the entitlement abyss have no options.

As I have said before the system demands participation in order for one to survive which is pretty much slavery. Unless I have the option to take a piece of land, build my own house and grow/hunt/fish for my own food then the employer's offer is just take it or leave it.

You mean you have to work to earn what you want? That sure sucks, doesn't it.

A choice of working for $1/hr vs. starving is not a real choice.

Then work for $5/hr. The old saying about opportunity knocking is total bullshizit. Opportunity never came knocking on my door...I had to go create my own opportunity. Try it sometime and you might be pleasantly surprised.

Leave it to the GOP and we will all be shopping at the company store.

Whaaaa...it's all the GOP's fault....whaaaaa. You partisin folks really need to take the blinders off and maybe you'll see you're talking about the same coin....the GOP is no different than your liberal masters. Whether you're shopping at the company store or feeding from the government trough. Same damned thing...you're still a slave to the man.

So maybe a fair wage is one that would convince someone it is better to work for you than rob you.

Or maybe a fair wage is one that a person is willing to work for.

Example...My first job here in FL was a whopping $10/hr. Woohoo! Still, it seemed pretty damned fair because at the time, I was earning zero. Instead of bitching about not making enough, I worked hard, made friends, built a network and used it for what it was....a launch point for bigger and better things.

[EVT1]

Jun 14, 2011 13:22:51 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

And yet Hilliary has no issues with anything that Wal-Mart has done in the past, she never worked to unionize wal-mart when she was on the board of directors and help vote down letting unions in.

And? She's in it for the money and power like everyone else. The only difference between the Republicans and Democrats is that the Democrats throw an occasional bone to the part of the population being raped by the people that pay to get them elected.

[cme1201]

Jun 14, 2011 13:31:17 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Jun 14, 2011 13:22:51 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

And yet Hilliary has no issues with anything that Wal-Mart has done in the past, she never worked to unionize wal-mart when she was on the board of directors and help vote down letting unions in.

And? She's in it for the money and power like everyone else. The only difference between the Republicans and Democrats is that the Democrats throw an occasional bone to the part of the population being raped by the people that pay to get them elected.

Yeah right, that's laughable.

[EVT1]

Jun 14, 2011 13:30:34 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

You mean you have to work to earn what you want? That sure sucks, doesn't it.

Missing my point which is that at one point in time a citizen in this country could by his own hand- (and maybe with the help of the homesteading act)- support themselves via hard work building a shelter/farming/etc. If that were the case today, a business would have to offer a wage that could compete- so it would have to be enough to cover shelter/food/etc. or no one would bother.

Or another way to put it a fair wage allows a full time worker to survive by covering basic necessities. I don't know about you, but if my only option tomorrow was to work for less than it takes to survive I am not going to bother- I will find another way legal or otherwise- and if I get caught breaking the law, well society can just give me 3 hots and a cot, health care and a TV and I'll kick back and watch the rest of the country go down in flames. GOP rhetoric might sound good to you but policies- like ending the minimum wage, the safety net,etc. have real world consequences.

[floridayankee]

Jun 14, 2011 13:49:58 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Missing my point which is that at one point in time a citizen in this country could by his own hand- (and maybe with the help of the homesteading act)- support themselves via hard work building a shelter/farming/etc. If that were the case today, a business would have to offer a wage that could compete- so it would have to be enough to cover shelter/food/etc. or no one would bother.

I didn't miss your point...I got it. Believe it or not, you can still do that. Of course, you'll probably not have the largest or newest house in the town or the flashiest, sportiest cars in the drive or wear the snappiest clothes in town. I know plenty of one income families that do quite well. OTOH, I also know plenty of two income families that don't. It's all about your priorities.

Or another way to put it a fair wage allows a full time worker to survive by covering basic necessities. I don't know about you, but if my only option tomorrow was to work for less than it takes to survive I am not going to bother- I will find another way legal or otherwise-

My option would be to take what I can get for now and figure out a better way to get what I want without having to resort to robbing a bank.

and if I get caught breaking the law, well society can just give me 3 hots and a cot, health care and a TV and I'll kick back and watch the rest of the country go down in flames.

Yes...because those people in prison live the easy live. BTW, nothing stopping you from booking a room at the grey-bar motel right now if you think it's that easy in there.

GOP rhetoric might sound good to you but policies- like ending the minimum wage, the safety net,etc. have real world consequences.

I'm not listening to any rhetoric...yours or theirs. Like I said, my first job here in FL was above min wage...the great majority of jobs above a middle school education level are. Hell, DS's first job was above min wage. If you're old enough to shave and still working a min wage job, you need to reflect back on your own life and figure out how you screwed up so bad.

It's tough out there...time to grow up, accept responsibility and show a little initiative.

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2011 14:19:03 GMT -5 floridayankee said:

Jun 14, 2011 13:49:58 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Missing my point which is that at one point in time a citizen in this country could by his own hand- (and maybe with the help of the homesteading act)- support themselves via hard work building a shelter/farming/etc. If that were the case today, a business would have to offer a wage that could compete- so it would have to be enough to cover shelter/food/etc. or no one would bother.

I didn't miss your point...I got it. Believe it or not, you can still do that. Of course, you'll probably not have the largest or newest house in the town or the flashiest, sportiest cars in the drive or wear the snappiest clothes in town. I know plenty of one income families that do quite well. OTOH, I also know plenty of two income families that don't. It's all about your priorities.

My option would be to take what I can get for now and figure out a better way to get what I want without having to resort to robbing a bank.

Yes...because those people in prison live the easy live. BTW, nothing stopping you from booking a room at the grey-bar motel right now if you think it's that easy in there.

GOP rhetoric might sound good to you but policies- like ending the minimum wage, the safety net,etc. have real world consequences.

I'm not listening to any rhetoric...yours or theirs. Like I said, my first job here in FL was above min wage...the great majority of jobs above a middle school education level are. Hell, DS's first job was above min wage. If you're old enough to shave and still working a min wage job, you need to reflect back on your own life and figure out how you screwed up so bad.

It's tough out there...time to grow up, accept responsibility and show a little initiative.

The days of unskilled workers making big bucks are behind us

Its all about education and skills to get better paying jobs now

You dont necessarily have to be college educated....but if not, you better have a good trade skill....plumber. electrician, mechanic, or you will be at the bottom of the earnings charts

The factories have closed....and high school is no longer good enough

Most of the problems i see, especially in my extended family, are due to poor decisions made by them as far as skills, education, and training

And they keep teaching the same bad lessons to their kids......it is a never ending cycle of barely eeking by....and if we dont get this through to the next generation, it will continue to get worse and worse

[EVT1]

Other than the part time job I worked bagging groceries in high school, I have never worked for minimum wage. In fact, the first full time job I worked in college paid well over and it required no skill- however there was a union. It was enough for me and a buddy to split an apartment and still get an occasional keg.

The problem I see with the minimum wage is that it didn't keep pace, so it is not the same today, even if you are making more it still buys less. This isn't about me- I have options, assets, I can work for myself anytime I feel like it, and have done so in the past. This is about the people busting their asses and not getting by. Everyone is not college material or even high school material- though they may have a GED. They still put in the time and it is in society's best interest to pay them enough to live- and I mean live without food stamps, EIC, and other government subsidies to low paying employers.

I still don't get why so many of you conservatives look down on the working poor or worse pass laws kicking their asses even harder. Maybe you have a little too much pride in yourself. Maybe it boosts your ego. What I do know is that there is a good chance you had a leg up from the day you were born.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 14, 2011 16:03:33 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Other than the part time job I worked bagging groceries in high school, I have never worked for minimum wage. In fact, the first full time job I worked in college paid well over and it required no skill- however there was a union. It was enough for me and a buddy to split an apartment and still get an occasional keg.

The problem I see with the minimum wage is that it didn't keep pace, so it is not the same today, even if you are making more it still buys less. This isn't about me- I have options, assets, I can work for myself anytime I feel like it, and have done so in the past. This is about the people busting their asses and not getting by. Everyone is not college material or even high school material- though they may have a GED. They still put in the time and it is in society's best interest to pay them enough to live- and I mean live without food stamps, EIC, and other government subsidies to low paying employers.

I still don't get why so many of you conservatives look down on the working poor or worse pass laws kicking their asses even harder. Maybe you have a little too much pride in yourself. Maybe it boosts your ego. What I do know is that there is a good chance you had a leg up from the day you were born.

This is disagree with, and I am not being sarcastic. I fully agree that every single person in a civil society should have enough to live and feed themselves. However, I do not believe that it is the individual employers' responsibility to pay more. If as a society we believe in a safety net (I most certainly do) then we should tax and redistribute income. That is much more equitable.

[EVT1]

The safety net cannot be an income subsidy- it is meant only for those disabled/unemployed/etc. that need it. If a full time worker needs government money for rent/food/etc. then the jobs are not paying enough. I would rather the employers face a living wage law then the taxpayer make up the difference.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Problem is, then you mess with the labor market. As much as I am a Democrat, I am also trained in economics, and I can't quite accept that. What if the employers in turn demand a living sales price for their goods and services?

[EVT1]

No easy solutions.

[NoMoreLunacy]

I do think there is an easy solution. Follow the Scandinavians. Tax and redistribute.

[formerexpat]

Because Somalia, Honduras, and other third world countries that have low tax rates are so much better. Tell you what, stay in any European country of your choice for a while, then stay in one of those third world countries, and tell us which one you'd prefer.

So low taxes is what makes those countries as well as most in Africa third world? Regulation in and of itself isn't bad - as long as it doesn't choke a country and its businesses to death. Turning your federal tax code into a wealth distribution model doesn't work long term and certainly won't work in a global economy.

People keep quoting the extremely high tax rates post WWII. People & companies didn't have a choice to go somewhere else. Europe and Japan was in disarray and other areas weren't close to being industrialized. That is all changing and the US has to make changes in it's model to continue to attract and retain the best and brightest, not from other countries but of its own.

I say this irrespective of political policies and my political beliefs. I am in my early 30's and planning my career to be easily mobile. Many others I know are doing the same. Should things become unfavorable here, these bright people [or at least high earning people] will be leaving the country and finding ways to reduce their tax liability. The government recognizes this and has even established an exit tax on those that renounce their citizenship.

Problem is, then you mess with the labor market. As much as I am a Democrat, I am also trained in economics, and I can't quite accept that. What if the employers in turn demand a living sales price for their goods and services?

And inevitably what happens, since you can't set a living sales price with the expectation that demand will not go down, you end up with high unemployment and 1 employee at a minimum wage of $11 doing the job of two people that would have made $15 an hour together, huh?

[NoMoreLunacy]

Like I said before, I believe tax and income redistribution is a far more effective way.

[formerexpat]

I do think there is an easy solution. Follow the Scandinavians. Tax and redistribute.

It's too engrained in American culture that you should be able to enjoy the fruits from your labor; not have them forcefully removed by the government and given to the non-producers of a country.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 14, 2011 20:36:26 GMT -5 formerexpat said:

I do think there is an easy solution. Follow the Scandinavians. Tax and redistribute.

It's too engrained in American culture that you should be able to enjoy the fruits from your labor; not have them forcefully removed by the government and given to the non-producers of a country.

In other words, you think Americans are selfish b**tards. I completely disagree. Republicans who are going for gutting MEdicare will soon find out how much Americans love tax and redistribute.

[Deleted]

What I am looking for from someone who believes that all the worlds problems will end if only a fair wage was instated is to answer what monetary figure would you place as a fair wage? What should a burger flipper at a fast food restaurant make, or the cashier at the local store, the bus boy cleaning your table, the immigrant who cleans the floor in your favorite store.

cme1201 the reason you won't get an answer to that question is simple. That living wage on any of your low paying entry level jobs would be outrageous in a lot of areas in this country. IF you could buy a burger in this country it would be $25 (fries extra of course). If anyone were to suggest that a living wage is XXX that would supply the rest of us a number with which we could then mathematically make them look stupid (like the $25 burger). It would then be obvious that it would never work & companies would go out of business.

If on the other hand you just harp on the "living wage" thing but don't name a figure, you can argue till the cows come in cause there's no proof. Much like "Tax the Rich" but nobody ever supports that possible path with actual numbers or just about any other "progressive ie. liberal" idea. Hell I don't even know what amount makes you rich enough for them to take all of your income. I just know that the middle class here in the U.S. is HUGE & is the main class paying for everything. Not that the rich don't pay too, it's just because the rich class is so small compared to the middle class. Any meaningful tax increase will have to include the middle class. (One of the ways to get laws passed in this country is to convince people that the law applies to everybody but THEM. Well new higher taxes will include the middle class even if we take 80% of the wealthy people income. Again, there just aren't enough of them).