deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 30, 2011 12:55:13 GMT -5
So veteran's lose hand me outs. It would be nice if we all could have hand me outs, but then we would all be poor mindless zealots. I say should do more cuts like this but across the board. I myself would be more worried about our children and grand children. I respect our veterans, but they went to war to fight for their freedom and lives(loved ones also). To many people care more about what they can get than what they already have. I understand paying taxes for roads and community used props but taxes being used for food stamps, welfare, education grants, home credits ect ect is just ridiculous. No, I have not used any programs from our government for my benefit or anybody-else. My parents taught me something called self-reliance, self-worth, hard work, all of these well benefit you the most. If you think we live in a world that is perfect or fair you might want to wake up from your idealistic dreams and come back to the real world with reason and common sense. Reason, your rant is just BS..but am moving on over it, just ignorance and of no consequence, but will take this time to let you know a few facts. More of our wounded survive their wounds then ever before, and being very young when acquired, they will be with us for long periods of time. Many of these wounds, because of protective body armor, when acquired are to the head and the type of action that gave them those wounds, exploding ordnance, there is great trauma to the body that many time will never go away. Due to education and knowledge, many of those injuries to say "Uncle Joe " from past conflicts, which were untreated, Uncle Joe can get weird at times, just give him some space, he'll come out of it, maybe, are now correctly identified as post traumatic stress , that may not show up ever, years later or immediately, and can be treated but time and expertise, which costs are there , never there before. Just because one volunteers for service to go in harms way does not mean they give up th right and accept that here will not be support given if needed if through that volunteerism they are disabled or hurt, that is part of th contract that they sign. Their obligation is they can't put down the issued weapon and book a flight home , say as they enter the "Freedom Bird", "take this job and shove it". The hiring agent, the USA, employer , also has a contractual obligation. They can't say after examining a wounded person , as they leave the examining room, after consulting with the administrator , the #'s crusher who estimates the cost to repair, "Sorry buddy, to high a expenditure, your on your own, good luck "
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on May 30, 2011 13:14:49 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with being delusional and you said handouts to veterans which includes both housing and medical..and I tried to answer your concerns so if you don't like my comments then hit the "ignore" key on your keyboard...it should do the trick.. BTW crapping on veterans on Memorial Day shows a lot of class.. "Nothing wrong with being delusional". Sorry I can't say anything has logic or reason to it after you admit that, so I will just stop.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on May 30, 2011 13:23:18 GMT -5
So veteran's lose hand me outs. It would be nice if we all could have hand me outs, but then we would all be poor mindless zealots. I say should do more cuts like this but across the board. I myself would be more worried about our children and grand children. I respect our veterans, but they went to war to fight for their freedom and lives(loved ones also). To many people care more about what they can get than what they already have. I understand paying taxes for roads and community used props but taxes being used for food stamps, welfare, education grants, home credits ect ect is just ridiculous. No, I have not used any programs from our government for my benefit or anybody-else. My parents taught me something called self-reliance, self-worth, hard work, all of these well benefit you the most. If you think we live in a world that is perfect or fair you might want to wake up from your idealistic dreams and come back to the real world with reason and common sense. Reason, your rant is just BS..but am moving on over it, just ignorance and of no consequence, but will take this time to let you know a few facts. More of our wounded survive their wounds then ever before, and being very young when acquired, they will be with us for long periods of time. Many of these wounds, because of protective body armor, when acquired are to the head and the type of action that gave them those wounds, exploding ordnance, there is great trauma to the body that many time will never go away. Due to education and knowledge, many of those injuries to say "Uncle Joe " from past conflicts, which were untreated, Uncle Joe can get weird at times, just give him some space, he'll come out of it, maybe, are now correctly identified as post traumatic stress , that may not show up ever, years later or immediately, and can be treated but time and expertise, which costs are there , never there before. Just because one volunteers for service to go in harms way does not mean they give up th right and accept that here will not be support given if needed if through that volunteerism they are disabled or hurt, that is part of th contract that they sign. Their obligation is they can't put down the issued weapon and book a flight home , say as they enter the "Freedom Bird", "take this job and shove it". The hiring agent, the USA, employer , also has a contractual obligation. They can't say after examining a wounded person , as they leave the examining room, after consulting with the administrator , the #'s crusher who estimates the cost to repair, "Sorry buddy, to high a expenditure, your on your own, good luck " Another delusional post, because I responded to a Housing benefit OP but I guess we don't talk about the OP here. I never once said they should not get medical benefits or treatment. Seriously you guys need to open your eyes and read. I am just curious have you ever had a job that gave you housing benefits for being hurt on the job? Do police officers get this? Do deep sea fisherman get this?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 30, 2011 13:33:15 GMT -5
Reason, your rant is just BS..but am moving on over it, just ignorance and of no consequence, but will take this time to let you know a few facts. More of our wounded survive their wounds then ever before, and being very young when acquired, they will be with us for long periods of time. Many of these wounds, because of protective body armor, when acquired are to the head and the type of action that gave them those wounds, exploding ordnance, there is great trauma to the body that many time will never go away. Due to education and knowledge, many of those injuries to say "Uncle Joe " from past conflicts, which were untreated, Uncle Joe can get weird at times, just give him some space, he'll come out of it, maybe, are now correctly identified as post traumatic stress , that may not show up ever, years later or immediately, and can be treated but time and expertise, which costs are there , never there before. Just because one volunteers for service to go in harms way does not mean they give up th right and accept that here will not be support given if needed if through that volunteerism they are disabled or hurt, that is part of th contract that they sign. Their obligation is they can't put down the issued weapon and book a flight home , say as they enter the "Freedom Bird", "take this job and shove it". The hiring agent, the USA, employer , also has a contractual obligation. They can't say after examining a wounded person , as they leave the examining room, after consulting with the administrator , the #'s crusher who estimates the cost to repair, "Sorry buddy, to high a expenditure, your on your own, good luck " Another delusional post, because I responded to a Housing benefit OP but I guess we don't talk about the OP here. I never once said they should not get medical benefits or treatment. Seriously you guys need to open your eyes and read. I am just curious have you ever had a job that gave you housing benefits for being hurt on the job? Do police officers get this? Do deep sea fisherman get this? As it was explained, there are reasons for the housing benefits for some, to house rather then be on the streets is a cost positive and in some cases as important as medical care, and in medical care, that to is bein addressed and cut, and as P. I. said, the qualifications are changing as to who is eligible, not that those turned down are not deserving, but because of costs, they are tightning the standards because of the financial drain. I believe that a financial need might be used, I beleive it is starting to be done now, and for those wwho can afford more , possible let them pay for some of their costs vs those who might not be able to do so. ASs I said, I do use the VA for a few things, service related, but for my every day care I rather do it myself, and assume those costs myself by a suppliment coverage and what I pay in medicare costs, my choice. Primarily, I can afford it, and for me, better care, more comfortable, time involved, and other personal reasons.. Going back to housing/ medical as a benefit, some medical is just sitting in a group talking, experiencing, self moderated with one so trained, other times with a Psychologist to lead...just as important as actual hands on care, medications, procedures taken to repair and alleviate..care needed is care..housing, very important , especially if the other is no housing at all.
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Post by commentator on May 30, 2011 13:45:25 GMT -5
If one vet I know hadn't been over 50% disabled and a former POW, he would have had to wait 6 months for an evaluation appointment at a VA hospital instead of 6 weeks.
Six weeks is too long.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 30, 2011 13:53:53 GMT -5
<<< I am just curious have you ever had a job that gave you housing benefits for being hurt on the job? >>> ...yes... when housing is part of the compensation package, and injury/disability time is "on the clock," then housing is continued... clergy, academics, and various remote-location scientists come to mind...
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Post by privateinvestor on May 30, 2011 14:04:03 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with being delusional
Right I have delusions of hitting it big in the stock market in a few years if my investements in the electric car battery industry takes off...hopefully I will earn enough to send my grandkids to college
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hello fromWarsaw
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Hiya! Wake UP!!
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on May 30, 2011 15:41:01 GMT -5
In their blind hate of the black president, people don't seem to know when Memorial Day IS...idiocy... Pubs seem to think supporting the troops means starting STUPID unending wars and cutting their benefits...
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Post by lakhota on May 30, 2011 19:17:22 GMT -5
In their blind hate of the black president, people don't seem to know when Memorial Day IS...idiocy... Pubs seem to think supporting the troops means starting STUPID unending wars and cutting their benefits... True, but so very sad.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 30, 2011 19:21:45 GMT -5
Whatever happened to Obama's campaign promise to bring our Troops home from Afghanistan by 2011?? Didn't he say within two years after he became our Commander in Chief our troops would all be home from the Afghan? Or was that just another empty promise by an "Empty Suit" President?? Or more importantly let's forget his empty campaign promises which were all BS what is Obama's plans now to bring our troops home from Afghanistan?? 2012?? 2020?? 2030?? Or does Obama really care??
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Post by lakhota on May 30, 2011 19:27:33 GMT -5
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 30, 2011 19:29:16 GMT -5
In their blind hate of the black president, people don't seem to know when Memorial Day IS...idiocy... Pubs seem to think supporting the troops means starting STUPID unending wars and cutting their benefits... True, but so very sad. Sad that you actually believe it I guess.
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Post by lakhota on May 30, 2011 19:32:55 GMT -5
I believe it because it's true! It's twoo, it's twoo...
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 30, 2011 19:46:43 GMT -5
I believe it because it's true! It's twoo, it's twoo... It's your delusion
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 30, 2011 20:08:37 GMT -5
"Whatever happened to Obama's campaign promise to bring our Troops home from Afghanistan by 2011"
I believe what happens when one becomes POTUS, and information is given you that you didn't know before you assumed that office, there are times that reality hits and changes have to be made. Some of us here like to look at every word spoken, syllable put down and hold those who speak and say those words, ideas responsible for fulfilling what they might have suggested, and that's their right to do so.
I rather like to take the other road. Decisions made by what is known and found out and the decisons made are decisions done by necessity rather then by emotion and political happenings. To do what is wanted by the populace , decisions made for political expediency is a safe way to do things but I am glad that our current POTUS did a in depth study of what he had on his plate, and rather then make the political correct decision, after consultation, many meetings, weighing all the choices, some given by his closest advisors and confidants, the most expert on the situation, in and out of the government and military, only then did he decided on the actions he took.
The war in Afganistan under Obama, the decisions made , the reasons for , the options given , those given and rejected and why, what was left him from the previouse administration and his final decision on strategy that we are now enacting are well documented in "Woodwards" book, "Obama's War ", and however it finally works out, shows great thought was given to the actions taken, and as far as the complaint put forward by one here , and others also, basically S happens, things have to be adjusted and thus what was at one time proposed because of realities of the situation what was proposed is realized it would not be in the best interests of the countrys interest and thus the ideas and actions change.
Naturally for those who have expressed anything short of positives for the present POTUS, basically a continued disdain for anything associated with him and his people, his thoughts, ideas, hell his presence, will use a change of directuion as a negative, where as thinking folks , with no axe to grind, hopefully the majority , will subscribe to a feeling he made a conciouse decision based on presented facts and chose a course of action, hopefully it will work out close to what we hope for, for the benefit of the countrys interests, that he didn't make a decision based strickly what was the most populer course of action with little sudy or thought given, and that was not the case on this topic, far from it..
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Post by lakhota on May 30, 2011 20:17:53 GMT -5
I agree on matters of national security a president should not be held strictly accountable for statements made as a candidate - when he was not privy to all the national intelligence and other inside information.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 30, 2011 20:26:51 GMT -5
I agree on matters of national security a president should not be held strictly accountable for statements made as a candidate - when he was not privy to all the national intelligence and other inside information. Well then Mr Lakhota ... President Eisenhower made a campaign promise to go to Korea and bust his butt to end the war on the Korean peninsula... And guess what?? After he became our President he worked to end that god awful war with a cease fire in July 1953.. BTW we owe a debt of gratitude to handyman 2 who fought with the 1st MAR DIV in Korea but he is too modest to mention it...so thanx handyman2 for your service in Korea..
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 30, 2011 20:33:56 GMT -5
"Whatever happened to Obama's campaign promise to bring our Troops home from Afghanistan by 2011" I believe what happens when one becomes POTUS, and information is given you that you didn't know before you assumed that office, there are times that reality hits and changes have to be made. Some of us here like to look at every word spoken, syllable put down and hold those who speak and say those words, ideas responsible for fulfilling what they might have suggested, and that's their right to do so. I rather like to take the other road. Decisions made by what is known and found out and the decisons made are decisions done by necessity rather then by emotion and political happenings. To do what is wanted by the populace , decisions made for political expediency is a safe way to do things but I am glad that our current POTUS did a in depth study of what he had on his plate, and rather then make the political correct decision, after consultation, many meetings, weighing all the choices, some given by his closest advisors and confidants, the most expert on the situation, in and out of the government and military, only then did he decided on the actions he took. The war in Afganistan under Obama, the decisions made , the reasons for , the options given , those given and rejected and why, what was left him from the previouse administration and his final decision on strategy that we are now enacting are well documented in "Woodwards" book, "Obama's War ", and however it finally works out, shows great thought was given to the actions taken, and as far as the complaint put forward by one here , and others also, basically S happens, things have to be adjusted and thus what was at one time proposed because of realities of the situation what was proposed is realized it would not be in the best interests of the countrys interest and thus the ideas and actions change. Naturally for those who have expressed anything short of positives for the present POTUS, basically a continued disdain for anything associated with him and his people, his thoughts, ideas, hell his presence, will use a change of directuion as a negative, where as thinking folks , with no axe to grind, hopefully the majority , will subscribe to a feeling he made a conciouse decision based on presented facts and chose a course of action, hopefully it will work out close to what we hope for, for the benefit of the countrys interests, that he didn't make a decision based strickly what was the most populer course of action with little sudy or thought given, and that was not the case on this topic, far from it.. I agree that opinions can change when you have more information and can appreciate those that can change. However, it doesn't mean that a person shouldn't be held accountable for constantly bashing current administrations (such as Obama did repeatedly) in order to gain support, only to do the exact same thing as what you constantly attacked. It shows that these attacks weren't necessarily warranted, and that he said what he thought would gain votes...probably knowing he wouldn't necessarily have to deliever on anything he said with the cop-out of "I have more information now that changes things."
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 30, 2011 20:36:00 GMT -5
I agree on matters of national security a president should not be held strictly accountable for statements made as a candidate - when he was not privy to all the national intelligence and other inside information. So you believe that candidate should be able to say whatever they want in order to get elected, but then never be held accountable? We wonder why candidates promise the world when they are trying to get elected.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 30, 2011 20:40:45 GMT -5
I agree on matters of national security a president should not be held strictly accountable for statements made as a candidate - when he was not privy to all the national intelligence and other inside information. So you believe that candidate should be able to say whatever they want in order to get elected, but then never be held accountable? We wonder why candidates promise the world when they are trying to get elected. Hey I promise you all if I am nominated for president I will not serve nor will I even campaign so you can all rest easy and sleep well.....my heart would not be in it nor would my family want me to be on the campaign trail and having ladies chase afer me for my autograph or anything else...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 30, 2011 21:37:04 GMT -5
"Whatever happened to Obama's campaign promise to bring our Troops home from Afghanistan by 2011" I believe what happens when one becomes POTUS, and information is given you that you didn't know before you assumed that office, there are times that reality hits and changes have to be made. Some of us here like to look at every word spoken, syllable put down and hold those who speak and say those words, ideas responsible for fulfilling what they might have suggested, and that's their right to do so. I rather like to take the other road. Decisions made by what is known and found out and the decisons made are decisions done by necessity rather then by emotion and political happenings. To do what is wanted by the populace , decisions made for political expediency is a safe way to do things but I am glad that our current POTUS did a in depth study of what he had on his plate, and rather then make the political correct decision, after consultation, many meetings, weighing all the choices, some given by his closest advisor's and confidants, the most expert on the situation, in and out of the government and military, only then did he decided on the actions he took. The war in Afganistan under Obama, the decisions made , the reasons for , the options given , those given and rejected and why, what was left him from the previous administration and his final decision on strategy that we are now enacting are well documented in "Woodwards" book, "Obama's War ", and however it finally works out, shows great thought was given to the actions taken, and as far as the complaint put forward by one here , and others also, basically S happens, things have to be adjusted and thus what was at one time proposed because of realities of the situation what was proposed is realized it would not be in the best interests of the country's interest and thus the ideas and actions change. Naturally for those who have expressed anything short of positives for the present POTUS, basically a continued disdain for anything associated with him and his people, his thoughts, ideas, hell his presence, will use a change of direction as a negative, where as thinking folks , with no axe to grind, hopefully the majority , will subscribe to a feeling he made a conscious decision based on presented facts and chose a course of action, hopefully it will work out close to what we hope for, for the benefit of the country's interests, that he didn't make a decision based strictly what was the most popular course of action with little study or thought given, and that was not the case on this topic, far from it.. I agree that opinions can change when you have more information and can appreciate those that can change. However, it doesn't mean that a person shouldn't be held accountable for constantly bashing current administrations (such as Obama did repeatedly) in order to gain support, only to do the exact same thing as what you constantly attacked. It shows that these attacks weren't necessarily warranted, and that he said what he thought would gain votes...probably knowing he wouldn't necessarily have to deliver on anything he said with the cop-out of "I have more information now that changes things." I am a supporter of his because I liked his message, didn't really know him, he was a great speaker and licked what he was saying, felt McCain was to old, not happy with his choice of VP, though I agree that from a political standpoint it was a brilliant choice, his campaign with the average republican voter , especially the hard right, the religious , was in the tank, and over all, while POTUS , with what he inherited, and yes I have questions on many topics, but over all I like how he is running the office, but with all that, I have been around the block a bit and I understand Politics, loved Kennedy too, he was also a politician as is Obama and none of them did I ever claim walked on water. You can be a nit picker and be upset over his utterances while campaigning , me , I go with the flow.. I am sure if I was a fly on the wall privy to what is said in that office, by others, by himself, hell by Michelle herself..I am sure I would be , "WOW he, they, she ..really said that He's not getting my vote in 2012 no way..." but I am not that fly, and as far as being that fly, if I was in any of those offices of any candidate, including the great man himself, if I could understand the English of the time, I am sure the same feeling would be given to Washington himself. . None of those Bozo's would get my vote..probably go with my ex first or even ...oops, better not mention a few I was thinking of from here, that's all I would need , more pm's , mod reports, attacking, insinuating...nope will leave it like it is. ;D
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 30, 2011 22:03:25 GMT -5
dezi, billsonboard isn't interested in facts. He hopes others reading his misleading drivel aren't interested in facts either. Interesting statement commentator. Lets us look at my "misleading drivel". Let's see exactly how non-factual that is. Earlier in the day, President Barack Obama placed a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns. www.stripes.com/memorial-day-tributes-at-arlington-to-iraq-afghanistan-fallen-1.145087 100% factual. Got anything else?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 30, 2011 22:15:56 GMT -5
you da boss...
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Post by lakhota on May 31, 2011 1:39:16 GMT -5
My Family's Fallen -- and Yours -- Deserve More Than Platitudes for Memorial Day On Monday we'll hear a lot of Memorial Day speeches about honoring our fallen soldiers and their disabled comrades. On Tuesday some of the politicians giving those speeches will try to cut benefits for them and their families. In the words of Ben Franklin, "Well done is better than well said." The nine million veterans who currently receive Social Security benefits would probably agree. Cutting benefits is no way to honor the fallen or those who came home with their bodies permanently damaged. It would be an act of profound ingratitude to doom them or their families to a life of increased deprivation. Yet that's exactly what these politicians are trying to do. More: www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/veterans-social-security-_b_868491.html
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 31, 2011 2:26:41 GMT -5
My Family's Fallen -- and Yours -- Deserve More Than Platitudes for Memorial Day On Monday we'll hear a lot of Memorial Day speeches about honoring our fallen soldiers and their disabled comrades. On Tuesday some of the politicians giving those speeches will try to cut benefits for them and their families. In the words of Ben Franklin, "Well done is better than well said." The nine million veterans who currently receive Social Security benefits would probably agree. Cutting benefits is no way to honor the fallen or those who came home with their bodies permanently damaged. It would be an act of profound ingratitude to doom them or their families to a life of increased deprivation. Yet that's exactly what these politicians are trying to do. More: www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/veterans-social-security-_b_868491.html Lakhota that was a finely written article, one of the best I have read on the topic. That it was published in the huff is a credit to them. Anyone who pontificates as to the unworthiness of the Huff, charecterizing as a "rag " to express their dissatisfaction with what it represents never really reads it, and has a screw loose in my mind. To read this article and to characterize it as trash, and suggesting the media outlet that prints such a article is a "rag " type outlet of news can only be said by people who are idiots, blowhards, loud mouthed ignoramuses who bay at the moon just to get the attention that no one wants to give them in the real world. They are little people of no consequences in my opinion, yet crave attention as a pig craves slop for sustenance. Naturally this is IMHO. Do you think I am to harsh in my criticism and thoughts on the matter?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 31, 2011 7:03:39 GMT -5
My Family's Fallen -- and Yours -- Deserve More Than Platitudes for Memorial Day On Monday we'll hear a lot of Memorial Day speeches about honoring our fallen soldiers and their disabled comrades. On Tuesday some of the politicians giving those speeches will try to cut benefits for them and their families. In the words of Ben Franklin, "Well done is better than well said." The nine million veterans who currently receive Social Security benefits would probably agree. Cutting benefits is no way to honor the fallen or those who came home with their bodies permanently damaged. It would be an act of profound ingratitude to doom them or their families to a life of increased deprivation. Yet that's exactly what these politicians are trying to do. More: www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/veterans-social-security-_b_868491.html Lakhota that was a finely written article, one of the best I have read on the topic. That it was published in the huff is a credit to them. Anyone who pontificates as to the unworthiness of the Huff, charecterizing as a "rag " to express their dissatisfaction with what it represents never really reads it, and has a screw loose in my mind. To read this article and to characterize it as trash, and suggesting the media outlet that prints such a article is a "rag " type outlet of news can only be said by people who are idiots, blowhards, loud mouthed ignoramuses who bay at the moon just to get the attention that no one wants to give them in the real world. They are little people of no consequences in my opinion, yet crave attention as a pig craves slop for sustenance. Naturally this is IMHO. Do you think I am to harsh in my criticism and thoughts on the matter? My guess is that they wouldn't have printed it had it not been Republicans who are the ones trying to do the cutting at the moment. Anybody who attempts to say that Huffpo isn't biased has obviously never read the paper either.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 31, 2011 8:21:14 GMT -5
Anybody who attempts to say that Huffpo isn't biased has obviously never read the paper either.
I would never trust anything in the Huffington Post and they have been inaccurate and biased in their reporting I now classify them as a "Liberal Rag"....IMHO
And I challenge any of our so called Liberal Political Experts here to prove me wrong. And if they do, I will rescind my comments about them being a "RAG"...go for it or deal with it..
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Post by commentator on May 31, 2011 8:41:39 GMT -5
dezi, billsonboard isn't interested in facts. He hopes others reading his misleading drivel aren't interested in facts either. Interesting statement commentator. Lets us look at my "misleading drivel". My bad, Bill, I attributed a position to you that was taken by someone else. I apologize.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2011 8:58:24 GMT -5
Interesting statement commentator. Lets us look at my "misleading drivel". My bad, Bill, I attributed a position to you that was taken by someone else. I apologize. Apology accepted. (but please don't hesitate to point out when I do actually post "misleading drivel" - keeping each other on our toes is not a bad thing.)
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Post by privateinvestor on May 31, 2011 10:16:31 GMT -5
but please don't hesitate to point out when I do actually post "misleading drivel" - keeping each other on our toes is not a bad thing.) Why ? It only leads to petty squabbles. ie. the Obama Memorial Day Schedule or Navy Seals threads... To police all of your misleading drivel would be a full time job...24/7 and who wants to perform that thank less task...??
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