US and Iran and terrorists

[jerseygirl]

US has softened its stance of sanctions on Iran. Iran is making billions selling oil to China. And if news reports can be believed, Iran is sending lots of money to Hamas, Hezbola and Houthis
Big changes since Biden administration took over
Is this contributing to Middle East problems? And by extension in rest of world including the US
What is rationale for administration continuing on this course or is it revising now?


apnews.com/article/joe-biden-donald-trump-iran-united-states-united-nations-aa8f38fa3bf7de3c09a469ec91664a3c

www.wsj.com/articles/biden-administration-iran-oil-hamas-israel-gaza-df192c53



www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/econographics/global-sanctions-dashboard-how-iran-evades-sanctions-and-finances-terrorist-organizations-like-hamas/

[tallguy]

Not sure where you are going with this.  Your first link states that:

Trump pulled the United States out of the agreement, known as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA, in 2018, accusing Iran of serious violations.

Biden has said the United States wants to rejoin the pact and the State Department said Thursday the U.S. would accept an invitation from the European Union to attend a meeting of the participants in the original agreement -- Britain, France, Germany, Russia, China and Iran.

The Trump administration’s decision to invoke a provision in the 2015 council resolution allowing the “snapback” of sanctions because Iran was in “significant non-performance” with its obligations under the accord was ignored by the rest of the Security Council and the world.

The overwhelming majority of members in the 15-nation council called Trump’s action illegal, because the U.S. was no longer a member of the JCPOA.

So Trump decided to go off half-cocked, making a lot of noise, but ultimately doing nothing other than causing the rest of the world to think we are idiots while reducing our influence.  Biden wants to rejoin the pact so we can have a voice in it again, and you're unhappy?  Do I have that right?

[djAdvocate]

we made terrible "mistakes" in Iraq.
now we want to repeat them in Iran.

i put that in quotes, because they were not really mistakes.
the PNAC wanted this to happen, just as they want a war with Iran.

before 911, the definition of terrorism was something like "using violence to coerce the governments of foreign nations to make political changes that align better with the violent actors or their sponsors".  if you use that definition, then the US does every bit as much "terrorism" as Iran.  even since that time, we do proxy terrorism all over the globe.  so, i am leery of any statement about Iraq which includes the party line "#1 state sponsor of terrorism".  if it were the US doing it, we would say "#1 sponsor of freedom fighters world wide".  no difference.  different wording.

when it aligns with our interests, we call it freedom fighting.
when it alights against our interests, we call it terrorism.
the tactics and immorality of it are indistinguishable.
but in the latter case, it brings down the force of international law.
and in the former case, we will boycott any possible sanction.

[jerseygirl]

Nov 11, 2023 19:25:09 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Not sure where you are going with this.  Your first link states that:

Trump pulled the United States out of the agreement, known as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA, in 2018, accusing Iran of serious violations.

Biden has said the United States wants to rejoin the pact and the State Department said Thursday the U.S. would accept an invitation from the European Union to attend a meeting of the participants in the original agreement -- Britain, France, Germany, Russia, China and Iran.

The Trump administration’s decision to invoke a provision in the 2015 council resolution allowing the “snapback” of sanctions because Iran was in “significant non-performance” with its obligations under the accord was ignored by the rest of the Security Council and the world.

The overwhelming majority of members in the 15-nation council called Trump’s action illegal, because the U.S. was no longer a member of the JCPOA.

So Trump decided to go off half-cocked, making a lot of noise, but ultimately doing nothing other than causing the rest of the world to think we are idiots while reducing our influence.  Biden wants to rejoin the pact so we can have a voice in it again, and you're unhappy?  Do I have that right?

I see Trump enforcing sanctions and Biden’s administration loosening


www.reuters.com/business/energy/iranian-oil-exports-end-2022-high-despite-no-nuclear-deal-2023-01-15/

[tallguy]

Nov 11, 2023 20:30:40 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Nov 11, 2023 19:25:09 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Not sure where you are going with this.  Your first link states that:

So Trump decided to go off half-cocked, making a lot of noise, but ultimately doing nothing other than causing the rest of the world to think we are idiots while reducing our influence.  Biden wants to rejoin the pact so we can have a voice in it again, and you're unhappy?  Do I have that right?

I see Trump enforcing sanctions and Biden’s administration loosening


www.reuters.com/business/energy/iranian-oil-exports-end-2022-high-despite-no-nuclear-deal-2023-01-15/

But again, the rest of the world ignored it, we lost respect because the U.N. Security Council considered Trump's actions illegal, and we lost influence because we no longer had a seat at that table.  Where is the real upside? 

[djAdvocate]

Pop Quiz:

Which religion has resulted in the most terrorist deaths between 911 and 2011*?

a) Islam
b) Christianity
c) Other


edit: if you think the way that is phrased is unfair, then use "what is the religion of the persons who were responsible for the most...." in the above description.

[jerseygirl]

Nov 11, 2023 20:44:01 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 11, 2023 20:30:40 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

I see Trump enforcing sanctions and Biden’s administration loosening


www.reuters.com/business/energy/iranian-oil-exports-end-2022-high-despite-no-nuclear-deal-2023-01-15/

But again, the rest of the world ignored it, we lost respect because the U.N. Security Council considered Trump's actions illegal, and we lost influence because we no longer had a seat at that table.  Where is the real upside? 

Loss of Respect?? Or huge increase in oil revenues going to Iran support of terrorists
Which has contributed more to problems ??

[djAdvocate]

Nov 11, 2023 21:00:10 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Nov 11, 2023 20:44:01 GMT -5 tallguy said:

But again, the rest of the world ignored it, we lost respect because the U.N. Security Council considered Trump's actions illegal, and we lost influence because we no longer had a seat at that table.  Where is the real upside? 

Loss of Respect?? Or huge increase in oil revenues going to Iran support of terrorists
Which has contributed more to problems ??

Iran's oil exports are down over 60% since 2012.

so, i am taking what is behind door #1:


www.statista.com/statistics/264170/oil-exports-of-iran-by-region-2008/#:~:text=Since%202012%2C%20the%20largest%20volume,515%20thousand%20barrels%20daily%2C%20respectively.

[tallguy]

Nov 11, 2023 21:00:10 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Nov 11, 2023 20:44:01 GMT -5 tallguy said:

But again, the rest of the world ignored it, we lost respect because the U.N. Security Council considered Trump's actions illegal, and we lost influence because we no longer had a seat at that table.  Where is the real upside? 

Loss of Respect?? Or huge increase in oil revenues going to Iran support of terrorists
Which has contributed more to problems ??

Your article says that they are evading sanctions, does it not?  That necessarily implies that our sanctions are still in place.  The article also states that the rest of the countries ignored Trump's actions in placing sanctions, and considered them illegal BECAUSE he had withdrawn us from that pact.  Biden wants us to rejoin so that we can have a legitimate influence.  In doing so, we may be able to actually decrease terrorism.  

One thing that Trump always ignored, probably because he wouldn't be able to sell himself as a tough guy, is that most of what gets done effectively in the world is not done with noise.  Trump is all about noise, because he only cares about attention for himself.

[jerseygirl]

Yes evading sanctions cause the US is no longer enforcing


Increased oil revenues show this. You really think Biden’s administration is having a positive influence on Iran ?
br]
The US shows weakness to the world

[djAdvocate]

Nov 11, 2023 21:59:18 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Yes evading sanctions cause the US is no longer enforcing


Increased oil revenues show this. You really think Biden’s administration is having a positive influence on Iran ?
br]
The US shows weakness to the world

yes, we are no longer terrifying everyone.

that seems to concern you.  why?

[Spellbound454]

 yes, we are no longer terrifying everyone.

Not really. you have US warships in the Mediterranean ready to bomb Hezbollah at the drop of a hat.

edition.cnn.com/2023/11/03/politics/us-military-buildup-middle-east-dg/index.html

[djAdvocate]

Nov 12, 2023 14:01:56 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 yes, we are no longer terrifying everyone.

Not really. you have US warships in the Mediterranean ready to bomb Hezbollah at the drop of a hat.

edition.cnn.com/2023/11/03/politics/us-military-buildup-middle-east-dg/index.html

well, then we are not projecting weakness.

you can't have it both ways.

NOTE: i think that the world was pretty terrified of Trump and the nuclear football.
it was THAT KIND OF TERROR i was referring to.  not the average kind that has 
prevailed since WW2.

[djAdvocate]

i get that Trump likes to say we have lost the respect of the world since Biden became president, and that we are weak now.  but from where i sit, the dual citizen that did not vote for Biden, the world has a great deal of respect for the person of Biden, with certain notable exceptions.

but he is not the deadly combination of erratic and macho.  everyone knows that type.  they are a danger to everyone around them.  that is not strength, in my book.  it is a curse, and will eventually land you in a morgue.  no matter how tough you think you are, there is always someone tougher.

[djAdvocate]

i had to check whether i live in a bubble or not, after Jersey gaslighted me.


www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/06/27/overall-opinion-of-the-u-s/


in 2020, the US had it's LOWEST international opinion among SIX major allies (out of 15).
since 2020, the US has had it's HIGHEST international opinion rating among FIVE major allies.

interestingly, we have our lowest rating in Hungary under the fascist Orban.
i am glad we are unpopular there.

[tallguy]

Nov 12, 2023 14:35:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i had to check whether i live in a bubble or not, after Jersey gaslighted me.


www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/06/27/overall-opinion-of-the-u-s/


in 2020, the US had it's LOWEST international opinion among SIX major allies (out of 15).
since 2020, the US has had it's HIGHEST international opinion rating among FIVE major allies.

interestingly, we have our lowest rating in Hungary under the fascist Orban.
i am glad we are unpopular there.

The way I read it, it was the lowest percentage in history in six out of eleven in 2020 since four were apparently not polled that year.  We were one point away in Germany from making it seven out of eleven.  If you include all four Trump years, we hit the lowest-ever rating in 12 of 23 nations, and again being one point away from it being 13.

[jerseygirl]

Gaslight? Ummm I have other things to do than respond to you

Respect from Iran (which is country I was discussing). Iran doesn’t seem to ‘respect’ Biden

Respect is a soft measure , looking at actual changes in the world such as evading sanctions with no consequences.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 12, 2023 14:49:28 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 12, 2023 14:35:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i had to check whether i live in a bubble or not, after Jersey gaslighted me.


www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/06/27/overall-opinion-of-the-u-s/


in 2020, the US had it's LOWEST international opinion among SIX major allies (out of 15).
since 2020, the US has had it's HIGHEST international opinion rating among FIVE major allies.

interestingly, we have our lowest rating in Hungary under the fascist Orban.
i am glad we are unpopular there.

The way I read it, it was the lowest percentage in history in six out of eleven in 2020 since four were apparently not polled that year.  We were one point away in Germany from making it seven out of eleven.  If you include all four Trump years, we hit the lowest-ever rating in 12 of 23 nations, and again being one point away from it being 13.

the survey gets even more interesting on page 3.
in terms of leadership, 11 out of 15 rated Trump the worst.
only two rated Biden the best.  but his numbers were in some cases SIX TIMES higher than Trumps.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 12, 2023 14:55:17 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Gaslight? Ummm I have other things to do than respond to you

i wasn't saying it was directed at me.
i was saying that you made me question my sanity.

thanks.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 12, 2023 14:55:17 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Respect from Iran (which is country I was discussing). Iran doesn’t seem to ‘respect’ Biden

Respect is a soft measure , looking at actual changes in the world such as evading sanctions with no consequences.

i don't want the US to seek the respect of fascists.  
that is a losing battle which destabilizes the world.

i want the US to seek the respect of Democratic nations.
if the Democratic nations work together, it strengthens 
democracy globally.

US-Iran policy has sucked for (40) years.  it will continue to suck.
but if we can get the nuclear inspection regime back in place, that
would make the world safer, for certain.

[tallguy]

Nov 12, 2023 14:57:18 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 12, 2023 14:49:28 GMT -5 tallguy said:

The way I read it, it was the lowest percentage in history in six out of eleven in 2020 since four were apparently not polled that year.  We were one point away in Germany from making it seven out of eleven.  If you include all four Trump years, we hit the lowest-ever rating in 12 of 23 nations, and again being one point away from it being 13.

the survey gets even more interesting on page 3.
in terms of leadership, 11 out of 15 rated Trump the worst.
only two rated Biden the best.  but his numbers were in some cases SIX TIMES higher than Trumps.

Almost difficult to imagine that the SMALLEST increase from Trump in 2020 to Biden in 2021 was 48 points.  It was 68 in Germany and Italy.  Then again, it IS Trump.

Oh, and it was 11 out of 14, or 15 out of 22, that had Trump the lowest-ever.  

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

Nov 11, 2023 20:54:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Pop Quiz:

Which religion has resulted in the most terrorist deaths between 911 and 2011*?

a) Islam
b) Christianity
c) Other


edit: if you think the way that is phrased is unfair, then use "what is the religion of the persons who were responsible for the most...." in the above description.

Almost positive it is b.

[jerseygirl]

Respect doesn’t necessarily mean admiration. Respect can mean awareness of capabilities, eg when the US seized Iranian oil tankers in 2020

www.npr.org/2020/08/14/902532689/u-s-seizes-iranian-fuel-from-4-tankers-bound-for-venezuela

Unlike Biden administration stepping back from sanctions, leading to increased oil sales, huge increase in Iranian money to spend on terrorists

www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/irans-oil-exports-have-soared-during-quiet-diplomacy-with-u-s-7a430a60

But winning in polls!!

[tallguy]

Nov 12, 2023 15:51:59 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Respect doesn’t necessarily mean admiration. Respect can mean awareness of capabilities, eg when the US seized Iranian oil tankers in 2020

www.npr.org/2020/08/14/902532689/u-s-seizes-iranian-fuel-from-4-tankers-bound-for-venezuela

Unlike Biden administration stepping back from sanctions, leading to increased oil sales, huge increase in Iranian money to spend on terrorists

www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/irans-oil-exports-have-soared-during-quiet-diplomacy-with-u-s-7a430a60

But winning in polls!!

Almost infinitely more likely to mean, "Trusted to do the right thing." 

[Tiny]

jerseygirl,

America has sanctions against Iran. OK. Do any other country have to abide or join in with those sanctions? Does America have any way to FORCE other countries to go along with those sanctions?

Do you think America has enough "power" to do anything alone effective on the global scale? Like we're the Global Dictator and what we say goes? I don't think we have a big enough stick to make that happen.


If we can't do it alone we need to get the cooperation of other countries. And if we don't have a big enough stick to BEAT those other countries into submission - we have to use Diplomacy.

Biden is going with diplomacy. Which is probably a good thing - because I'm pretty sure the other countries (Russia, India, China, Europe, Unitied Kingdom) don't really see America as having a bigger stick they each have.

The short game is using a big stick. the long game is diplomacy.

If all you need to be on the winning team today (and maybe for a week or two) - you use a big stick. If you want to be on the winning team for a very long time you use diplomacy.

[pulmonarymd]

Any comment on what congress is doing with aid to Ukraine? Iran is f sending arms to Russia, but Congress seems to not care. But I guess that’s Biden’s fault too!

[tallguy]

Much of the GOP now supports Russia, apparently.

[Tiny]

Just throwing this out there:


China population: 1.4 Billion
India Population: 1.4 Billion

United States Population 331.9 Million.


I get that it's hard to conceptualize a million or a billion of something so:

1 million seconds equals 11.57 DAYS
1 billion seconds equals 115.75 DAYS*
1 billion seconds equals 31.96 YEARS

Does anyone really think China and India are nations of subsistance farmers who need the USA?

America alone cannot bend India or China to it's will. It needs the cooperation of other countries.


* Fixed my bad math....     

[Tiny]

Nov 12, 2023 16:15:59 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Much of the GOP now supports Russia, apparently.

I heard this was all part of the plot to bring about the Biblical End of Times.   And the GOP is mostly White Evangelicals and their overall goal is to bring about the Biblical End of times... so there you are.   they are on a mission from God.   

[jerseygirl]

Ok another descent into fantasy

Goodbye