Was it better?

[laterbloomer]

I have been watching all the political developments going on in the Western World and the upsurge of far right extremism. As much as it disturbs me I know that really this kind of thing has always been there. It's just that we are naming it now and not letting the old white guys smile and say they are doing everything for the greater good. So here's my question, are we actually making progress about this stuff in the fact that we are openly fighting about it and naming it? Is anything actually worse than it was before? 

[mollyc]

Where groups are succeeding in remarginalizing others, it is worse.

I don’t think setting up laws and processes where people are expected to treat each other as people rather than the “other” is a bad thing. There are always going to be individuals who push against perceived slights and accusations.

On a very old Canadian Census, my great great grandfather and family are listed as Scotch halfbreeds. I commented that at least that description was equally offensive to Scots and Natives. DB2 who looks much like our English grandfather made a comment about if that meant he should hate himself then since the English were so mean to everyone else. I didn’t really respond to that. If he chooses to take discussions about wrongs of the past as personal attacks on himself, that’s on him.

I just can’t say what we have now is worse. Under current rules, my aunt wouldn’t have had to choose between marrying my uncle and keeping her status. She picked her status so if something happened to my much older uncle, she had the option of going home to her family.

I’m not sure this is very coherent but I couldn’t not respond.

[laterbloomer]

Jul 21, 2023 11:16:17 GMT -5 mollyc said:

Where groups are succeeding in remarginalizing others, it is worse.

I don’t think setting up laws and processes where people are expected to treat each other as people rather than the “other” is a bad thing. There are always going to be individuals who push against perceived slights and accusations.

On a very old Canadian Census, my great great grandfather and family are listed as Scotch halfbreeds. I commented that at least that description was equally offensive to Scots and Natives. DB2 who looks much like our English grandfather made a comment about if that meant he should hate himself then since the English were so mean to everyone else. I didn’t really respond to that. If he chooses to take discussions about wrongs of the past as personal attacks on himself, that’s on him.

I just can’t say what we have now is worse. Under current rules, my aunt wouldn’t have had to choose between marrying my uncle and keeping her status. She picked her status so if something happened to my much older uncle, she had the option of going home to her family.

I’m not sure this is very coherent but I couldn’t not respond.

Thanks for responding 

I think my idea is that no one was ever really demarginalized and at least now we are actually having a fight about this stuff. Making laws that were not actually enforced wasn't doing a lot of good for a lot of people. Or teaching a party line that our founding fathers (Canada here) were anything other than genocidal assholes was not helping our Indigenous peoples.

[billisonboard]

Jul 21, 2023 9:25:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I have been watching all the political developments going on in the Western World and the upsurge of far right extremism. As much as it disturbs me I know that really this kind of thing has always been there. It's just that we are naming it now and not letting the old white guys smile and say they are doing everything for the greater good. So here's my question, are we actually making progress about this stuff in the fact that we are openly fighting about it and naming it? Is anything actually worse than it was before? 

First thing that came to mind from reading the OP:

[mollyc]

I’m Canadian as well. I’m not sure what laws aren’t being enforced.

Laws can only take care of the big picture. The day to day is up to individuals. All we can do is try to expose ourselves and our children to the most diversity possible. There is always going to be some judging though. Have you never been caught in an argument between staunch anti-cat and anti-dog people?

I have a cousin in Alberta who taught herself how to make a proper teepee. The local bands have commissioned her to make Teepees for them. A lot of the individuals talk shit about the Cree around her all the time. As much as she would like to tell them to fuck off, she knows helping the willing regain some of their old culture and showing them that Cree aren’t whatever negative thing they tell themselves is the better choice

[laterbloomer]

Jul 21, 2023 11:36:07 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 21, 2023 9:25:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I have been watching all the political developments going on in the Western World and the upsurge of far right extremism. As much as it disturbs me I know that really this kind of thing has always been there. It's just that we are naming it now and not letting the old white guys smile and say they are doing everything for the greater good. So here's my question, are we actually making progress about this stuff in the fact that we are openly fighting about it and naming it? Is anything actually worse than it was before? 

First thing that came to mind from reading the OP:

You're going to have to spell it out for me. I don't get what you are saying.

[billisonboard]

Jul 21, 2023 12:10:09 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jul 21, 2023 11:36:07 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

First thing that came to mind from reading the OP:

You're going to have to spell it out for me. I don't get what you are saying.

She is a thirty six year old female smiling face of "far right extremism" here in the States telling us she is doing things for the greater good. I thought of her when I read "... old white guys ...". Questioning progress being made with stereotyping.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

School boards are not better. 
The far right's strategy is to get elected to city councils, county commissions, school boards, library councils, and other local government positions. 
Now, please don't misunderstand me: I do appreciate that we live in a democratic republic and that the people govern themselves. 
However, politicizing the library and school boards is a horrendous approach to these non-partisan entities. It really is hindering any progress any of them are making. And goodness knows we need to make a lot of progress in public education. 

[laterbloomer]

Jul 21, 2023 12:33:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 21, 2023 12:10:09 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

You're going to have to spell it out for me. I don't get what you are saying.

She is a thirty six year old female smiling face of "far right extremism" here in the States telling us she is doing things for the greater good. I thought of her when I read "... old white guys ...". Questioning progress being made with stereotyping.

LOL fair enough. I got lazy with my stereotyping, there have always been women that sold the story too. But is it better or worse that the 36 year old woman is now an elected official pushing this story instead of the wife of an elected official doing it?

[laterbloomer]

Jul 21, 2023 12:42:06 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

School boards are not better. 
The far right's strategy is to get elected to city councils, county commissions, school boards, library councils, and other local government positions. 
Now, please don't misunderstand me: I do appreciate that we live in a democratic republic and that the people govern themselves. 
However, politicizing the library and school boards is a horrendous approach to these non-partisan entities. It really is hindering any progress any of them are making. And goodness knows we need to make a lot of progress in public education. 

I think no matter what is taught it is politicized. Whether slavery is good or bad is a value judgement and somehow we have at least 2 opposing views of what is moral and they chose different political parties.  

[billisonboard]

Jul 21, 2023 14:23:26 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jul 21, 2023 12:33:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

She is a thirty six year old female smiling face of "far right extremism" here in the States telling us she is doing things for the greater good. I thought of her when I read "... old white guys ...". Questioning progress being made with stereotyping.

LOL fair enough. I got lazy with my stereotyping, there have always been women that sold the story too. But is it better or worse that the 36 year old woman is now an elected official pushing this story instead of the wife of an elected official doing it?

I think things are improving imperfectly over the long haul of history. We are backsliding at this point but won't lose all ground recently gained in regards to acceptance of personal differences.

[mollyc]

I agree with the improving over time. There is always going to be one step forward and one step back on things. We just need to keep working on things and not despair

[Tennesseer]

This sums it up:

"Why do they have to shove it in my face?"

Translation:

"I liked it better when you were invisible and I could pretend you didn't exist."

[TheOtherMe]

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-florida-standards-teach-black-people-benefited-slavery-taught-usef-rcna95418

Florida’s public schools will now teach students that some Black people benefited from slavery because it taught them useful skills, part of new African American history standards approved Wednesday that were blasted by a state teachers' union as a “step backward.”

This is definitely backwards.  

[Pink Cashmere]

Jul 21, 2023 15:44:57 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-florida-standards-teach-black-people-benefited-slavery-taught-usef-rcna95418

Florida’s public schools will now teach students that some Black people benefited from slavery because it taught them useful skills, part of new African American history standards approved Wednesday that were blasted by a state teachers' union as a “step backward.”

This is definitely backwards.  

But it’s not a new thing. When my son and my younger cousin moved to Texas several years ago, they were shocked that white people tried to have conversations with them, about slavery. The conversations about history and race wouldn’t have been problematic if not for the fact that these conversations included young white people insisting that slavery in this country, was really just Black people coming here for job opportunities. I won’t get into all the things that are very wrong with that kind of thinking, but DS and my cousin were subjected to that kind of thinking so many times over the 7 or 8 years they lived there, that it has to be that these people were being taught that and really believed that stupid shit.

So now children in Florida will learn the same kind of stupid shit. 

I just can’t with these people anymore.

[Pink Cashmere]

This isn’t the thread I thought I was replying to that post in. I was thinking it was the one about Florida. My bad.

[TheOtherMe]

Jul 21, 2023 16:51:59 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Jul 21, 2023 15:44:57 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-florida-standards-teach-black-people-benefited-slavery-taught-usef-rcna95418

Florida’s public schools will now teach students that some Black people benefited from slavery because it taught them useful skills, part of new African American history standards approved Wednesday that were blasted by a state teachers' union as a “step backward.”

This is definitely backwards.  

But it’s not a new thing. When my son and my younger cousin moved to Texas several years ago, they were shocked that white people tried to have conversations with them, about slavery. The conversations about history and race wouldn’t have been problematic if not for the fact that these conversations included young white people insisting that slavery in this country, was really just Black people coming here for job opportunities. I won’t get into all the things that are very wrong with that kind of thinking, but DS and my cousin were subjected to that kind of thinking so many times over the 7 or 8 years they lived there, that it has to be that these people were being taught that and really believed that stupid shit.

So now children in Florida will learn the same kind of stupid shit. 

I just can’t with these people anymore.

Not much was taught about slavery and the Holocaust, etc. when I was in school in the 1950's.  DN1 tells me he was taught both topics in school and in college courses.  That gave me hope but Iowa is going to end up doing what Florida is doing and it makes me angry and sick.

[Bonny]

Jul 21, 2023 16:51:59 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Jul 21, 2023 15:44:57 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-florida-standards-teach-black-people-benefited-slavery-taught-usef-rcna95418

Florida’s public schools will now teach students that some Black people benefited from slavery because it taught them useful skills, part of new African American history standards approved Wednesday that were blasted by a state teachers' union as a “step backward.”

This is definitely backwards.  

But it’s not a new thing. When my son and my younger cousin moved to Texas several years ago, they were shocked that white people tried to have conversations with them, about slavery. The conversations about history and race wouldn’t have been problematic if not for the fact that these conversations included young white people insisting that slavery in this country, was really just Black people coming here for job opportunities. I won’t get into all the things that are very wrong with that kind of thinking, but DS and my cousin were subjected to that kind of thinking so many times over the 7 or 8 years they lived there, that it has to be that these people were being taught that and really believed that stupid shit.

So now children in Florida will learn the same kind of stupid shit. 

I just can’t with these people anymore.

As someone of European descent I've had to deal with a fair amount of racial stupidity too. I don't know why people who don't know you think it's o.k. to make ugly racial comments when you think everyone looks white. I speak up because it's not o.k. to be silent but if someone is that ignorant or rude I know I'm not going to change their mind.

But my stand out memory is from my own father. In 1972 he told me that he didn't think slavery was all that bad. After all slaves were expensive and why would anyone treat expensive property badly? 

[laterbloomer]

Jul 21, 2023 16:53:36 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

This isn’t the thread I thought I was replying to that post in. I was thinking it was the one about Florida. My bad.

It still fits

[laterbloomer]

Jul 22, 2023 10:46:12 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jul 21, 2023 16:51:59 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

But it’s not a new thing. When my son and my younger cousin moved to Texas several years ago, they were shocked that white people tried to have conversations with them, about slavery. The conversations about history and race wouldn’t have been problematic if not for the fact that these conversations included young white people insisting that slavery in this country, was really just Black people coming here for job opportunities. I won’t get into all the things that are very wrong with that kind of thinking, but DS and my cousin were subjected to that kind of thinking so many times over the 7 or 8 years they lived there, that it has to be that these people were being taught that and really believed that stupid shit.

So now children in Florida will learn the same kind of stupid shit. 

I just can’t with these people anymore.

As someone of European descent I've had to deal with a fair amount of racial stupidity too. I don't know why people who don't know you think it's o.k. to make ugly racial comments when you think everyone looks white. I speak up because it's not o.k. to be silent but if someone is that ignorant or rude I know I'm not going to change their mind.

But my stand out memory is from my own father. In 1972 he told me that he didn't think slavery was all that bad. After all slaves were expensive and why would anyone treat expensive property badly? 

I speak up too. I doubt I will change anyone's minds but I'm hoping I take away their comfort saying it.

[thyme4change]

It might not change their minds, but it will teach them to not spew their crap around you. And, if they are introspective or non-confrontational they may think twice about saying it around any “unknowns”. I was loud and proud of my Trump hate and my boss finally snapped and told me how terrible Hillary was and how her policies would hurt farmers or whatever. I never spoke about politics again at work. I realized it was not gaining me fans, but turning some against me. I was so oblivious- I couldn’t understand how smart, professional people couldn’t hate Trump - even if they were Republican. But then I started listening and realized some people I respected were bonafide Trump fans. By the time 2020 came around there was often talk about the stolen election. Granted those people were more low-level office workers instead of high earning professionals (and the guy that dressed me down was gone), but I didn’t know what my management level peers were thinking and honestly, I did not want to know. I still had to work with them.

So, you never know when saying something will make someone just give up on spreading the word of their opinions.

[laterbloomer]

Jul 23, 2023 20:00:18 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

It might not change their minds, but it will teach them to not spew their crap around you. And, if they are introspective or non-confrontational they may think twice about saying it around any “unknowns”. I was loud and proud of my Trump hate and my boss finally snapped and told me how terrible Hillary was and how her policies would hurt farmers or whatever. I never spoke about politics again at work. I realized it was not gaining me fans, but turning some against me. I was so oblivious- I couldn’t understand how smart, professional people couldn’t hate Trump - even if they were Republican. But then I started listening and realized some people I respected were bonafide Trump fans. By the time 2020 came around there was often talk about the stolen election. Granted those people were more low-level office workers instead of high earning professionals (and the guy that dressed me down was gone), but I didn’t know what my management level peers were thinking and honestly, I did not want to know. I still had to work with them.

So, you never know when saying something will make someone just give up on spreading the word of their opinions.

That sucks so bad. Mostly I'm on the right side of the politics at work but we are very circumspect about discussing it. But racist and sexist comments are seriously against company policy. We actually get training about calling it out and being good allies.

[Bonny]

Jul 23, 2023 20:00:18 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

It might not change their minds, but it will teach them to not spew their crap around you. And, if they are introspective or non-confrontational they may think twice about saying it around any “unknowns”. I was loud and proud of my Trump hate and my boss finally snapped and told me how terrible Hillary was and how her policies would hurt farmers or whatever. I never spoke about politics again at work. I realized it was not gaining me fans, but turning some against me. I was so oblivious- I couldn’t understand how smart, professional people couldn’t hate Trump - even if they were Republican. But then I started listening and realized some people I respected were bonafide Trump fans. By the time 2020 came around there was often talk about the stolen election. Granted those people were more low-level office workers instead of high earning professionals (and the guy that dressed me down was gone), but I didn’t know what my management level peers were thinking and honestly, I did not want to know. I still had to work with them.

So, you never know when saying something will make someone just give up on spreading the word of their opinions.

Yeah, I know quite a few 2016 Trump voters. I typically start off with "I can understand wanting change..." and then I get the confessional. Most are embarrassed that they got sucked in with Trump's business "success".

Still have two people who are close to my husband and me who justify their support by saying Trump is good for my money.   We change the subject from politics.

[thyme4change]

I can **almost** forgive a Trump 2016 voter - but if you are out there saying the election was stolen - especially now - I have lost respect for you. I have very negative feeling about your ability to think critically. I question your intelligence. You can hate Biden and think Republicans have good policies and that is fine, but if you believe the Big Lie - you are mentally compromised.