Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 19, 2011 13:36:31 GMT -5
eh, does it really matter if it was Jesus Christ, one's mother, your kids, having avoided some disaster (like surviving a car crash), or a chance encounter with a stranger(who tells you a heartwarming story), that changes someone's outlook on life enough for them to work at becoming a better person?
As long as it'snot suggested that I NEED Jesus Christ to be a better person or handle my finances better - you can say whatever you want about how YOU arrived at being a better person or better able to handle your money.
"An unexamined life is not worth living." does it really matter what it is that gets you examining??
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Apr 19, 2011 13:48:51 GMT -5
eh, does it really matter if it was Jesus Christ, one's mother, your kids, having avoided some disaster (like surviving a car crash), or a chance encounter with a stranger(who tells you a heartwarming story), that changes someone's outlook on life enough for them to work at becoming a better person? As long as it'snot suggested that I NEED Jesus Christ to be a better person or handle my finances better - you can say whatever you want about how YOU arrived at being a better person or better able to handle your money. "An unexamined life is not worth living." does it really matter what it is that gets you examining?? BURN THE UNBELIEVER!!
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 19, 2011 14:45:10 GMT -5
ooooo is that brimstone I smell!?! I hear the Casino Steamboats on the Lake of Fire have the BEST buffets and that the previously much sought after Cottages on the Southern Slope of the Infernal Pit are falling into a realestate slump - so nows the time to buy the Cottage you've always wanted to spend Eternity in... . I'm pretty much going to Heck so as a Good YMer I've been scoping out good deals on entertainment and real estate in the AfterLife. *** That's humor *** I don't have a 'connection' to an afterlife I don't believe in. Although the Steamboat on the Lake of Fire is an interesting image...
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Post by straydog on Apr 19, 2011 15:42:19 GMT -5
PBP: That's a great testimony. And not uncommon. I'm always surprised at unbelievers that say there's no evidence for God. In a court of law, eyewitness testimony counts as evidence, I believe. And there are a lot of stories that match up. Thanks for the kind words. I think I will just ignore the mockers, because I have a feeling that no matter how hard I try to explain it to them, they're just not going to get it anyway.
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Post by readsalot on Apr 20, 2011 9:03:29 GMT -5
Just because a book says it's the word of 'god' doesn't mean it is. And even if every single person on the planet believes there is a 'god' still doesn't mean there is. You just want there to be one. Well, if there is one then he/she/or it is an a--hole. I am a better parent than this pretend deity. I would NEVER let my kids suffer. There IS NO GOOD REASON. And that crap about 'free-will'. I would STILL put my kids on the right path and not let them suffer. I'm sure babies with cancer just made a bad choice in life. Psychos.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 9:40:30 GMT -5
I freaking love religious threads.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 20, 2011 10:10:03 GMT -5
ooooo let's keep track of the logical Fallacies used!! So far I'm seeing: Negative proof fallacy: that, because a premise cannot be proven false, the premise must be true; or that, because a premise cannot be proven true, the premise must be false. Example: And even if every single person on the planet believes there is a 'god' still doesn't mean there is. And, even if every single person on the planet said "There is no God", that doesn't mean there isn't. There's also an Appeal to Authority: Just because a book says it's the word of 'god' doesn't mean it is. I've found two!!! ADDED: I'm an equal opportunity 'mocker'
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 20, 2011 10:23:59 GMT -5
Oooo here's a nifty bit of Sophistry: [qoute]The point of the exam isn't the exam. The point of the exam is to diagnose and then move in the right direction.[/quote] See how the by taking the word Unexamined and turning it into Exam you can twist around the meaning of the quote!
I'm not very good at debating but I can name the nuts and bolts of it!
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 20, 2011 10:26:22 GMT -5
Thanks guys! I'm off to my favorite religion based board to visit with the other atheists (they have their own forums) and the believers who hang out there....
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sil
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Post by sil on Apr 20, 2011 12:49:08 GMT -5
Thinking about the story of the "poor" guy with $150k in his rafters.
Perhaps this story isnt so much different from the "middle class" family that is saving 50% of earnings just in case they are no longer employable after the age of 50, who has huge life/disability/umbrella liability policies to cover the "unforeseen", who fears that having even simple luxuries would identify them as targets for mooching relatives, who's blood pressure rises at every news story about Wall Street or Congress or illegals or welfare moms or public pension-collectors or whichever group they happen to feel is stealing "their" money.
Perhaps the poor guy with a stash of cash in his roof is no more crazy than we are.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 20, 2011 12:55:52 GMT -5
It's beliefnet.com - the forums there use to be quite lively. the discussion boards are generally the most active. You just need to remember that not everyone believes the same way or the same stuff you do... and to NOT let it get to you. There's lots of very nice knowlegeable about their beliefs people, the occassional person who perhaps forgot to take their meds and a handful of just plain old Trolls. . Just sayin'...
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 20, 2011 13:09:39 GMT -5
Perhaps this story isnt so much different from the "middle class" family that is saving 50% of earnings just in case they are no longer employable after the age of 50, who has huge life/disability/umbrella liability policies to cover the "unforeseen", who fears that having even simple luxuries would identify them as targets for mooching relatives, who's blood pressure rises at every news story about Wall Street or Congress or illegals or welfare moms or public pension-collectors or whichever group they happen to feel is stealing "their" money.
Perhaps the poor guy with a stash of cash in his roof is no more crazy than we are. Whoa. How many of you guys would describe yourselves that way? I mean, I'll sit here and talk about the news stories about Wall St, Congress, illegals, welfare moms, or public pensions but I don't stress about it. I'm also not living like a pauper for fear of mooching relatives or losing it all tomorrow. I save for retirement, but not 50%. I mean, there's a difference between prudence and hoarding due to irrational fear.
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Post by money100 on Apr 20, 2011 17:01:17 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing, Stray Dog. Phil, I love, love, love you! You and PBP are all a girl needs to get out of debt! I also love your smiley face right after your slightly zingy posts.
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Post by money100 on Apr 20, 2011 17:43:25 GMT -5
Also, thanks, StrayDog and PBP for not running with the religious theme.
I'm deeply religious and it made me smile at your testimony and acknowledgement from Paul. But while I also credit Jesus with changing my mindset and may enjoy people's matter-of-fact stories about their beliefs AND ITS RELATION TO MONEY, I don't come to Your Money to get into this kind of debate.
Thanks for having the buck stop with you and ending what can typically become a very unpleasant "conversation." (And I'm so happy for you, Stray Dog).
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Post by money100 on Apr 20, 2011 17:46:47 GMT -5
OMG, Sil. This line is me:
"who fears that having even simple luxuries would identify them as targets for mooching relatives"
I don't intend on dressing in rags, but I do want to continue to travel (not 5 star or anything like that) and I'm concerned about my inlaws and their "redistribute wealth" philosophy. For this reason, even though my favourite car is a luxury brand, I'll be much happier driving a Toyota sedan.
OMG! I thought I was the only person who thought like this!
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Post by straydog on Apr 21, 2011 2:17:23 GMT -5
Also, thanks, StrayDog and PBP for not running with the religious theme. I'm deeply religious and it made me smile at your testimony and acknowledgement from Paul. But while I also credit Jesus with changing my mindset and may enjoy people's matter-of-fact stories about their beliefs AND ITS RELATION TO MONEY, I don't come to Your Money to get into this kind of debate. Thanks for having the buck stop with you and ending what can typically become a very unpleasant "conversation." (And I'm so happy for you, Stray Dog). And thank you for your kind words.
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gawgagranny
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Post by gawgagranny on Apr 21, 2011 3:33:21 GMT -5
Straydog, all I can add to what money 100 said is "amen, sister!" Thanks for your testimony.
Blessings!
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Post by straydog on Apr 21, 2011 6:12:46 GMT -5
Straydog, all I can add to what money 100 said is "amen, sister!" Thanks for your testimony. Blessings! Thanks, Gawgagranny, appreciate it.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 21, 2011 20:19:27 GMT -5
You athiests ever consider that if I'm wrong, I die, no big deal. You're wrong, you die...well, big HOT deal...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 21, 2011 20:30:06 GMT -5
It's interesting how people live. My wife comes from Dutch (Reformed Church) background, and boy do they have hangups about money. They believe that you must sweat and bleed for money, and that if you don't- if by some miracle you come by money easily, it is ill-gotten gain and God will almost assuredly GET YOU in some other area of life-- or take it all away-- or both. They don't believe in enjoying themselves when it comes to spending. Getting my wife past one (1) drink at a restaurant is like pulling teeth (though three is something less of an issue ) and not due to tolerance or religion (we're both drinkers without any hangups there) but MONEY. She's simply not permitted to enjoy her money, or spend for pleasure. And the thing is, we're all hard wired to seek some kind of enjoyment and she will spend here and there a few dimes at a time-- and frequently she will sort of semi-snap and spend more than usual, but not as much as she really wants to spend to get what she really wants, so she frequently has buyer's remorse for some "settle for" item, which ends up getting returned...but she won't just buy the damn thing she wants. I know I'm not articulating it like it really is-- perhaps there's another screwed up Dutch person here, or you know one, and you can describe it better? And mind you-- her whole family does very well money wise. They just can't do anything fun, or get what they actually want with it, or I guess God will dissolve them in acid?
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Post by ty on Apr 21, 2011 20:34:10 GMT -5
You have to spend money to make money. I don't think any invention was ever pulled out of anyone's azz as far as I know. You have to buy materials and production cost to market an item. Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you have to spend money in order to create wealth.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 21, 2011 20:37:11 GMT -5
You have to spend money to make money. I don't think any invention was ever pulled out of anyone's azz as far as I know. You have to buy materials and production cost to market an item. Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you have to spend money in order to create wealth. True, but it doesn't have to be your money.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 21, 2011 20:37:53 GMT -5
"You athiests ever consider that if I'm wrong, I die, no big deal. You're wrong, you die...well, big HOT deal... "
I guess if you want to believe in an angry vengeful god then you are right. I will take my chances on a loving peace-full god.
I didn't read all the posts, but I lived with a money hoarding father he is technically wealthy. We did not live like it though sure we had a decent house, but he skimped on everything. We could only use a half paper towel we were not allowed to turn the heat up, he would get mad if we turned lights on I got clothes from a church rummage sale for Christmas, he complained constantly about how expensive everything was. I did have some nice things and never went without (ate at friends houses most of the time) my friends would make fun of me because we had no food (apparently a luxury in his mind) only condiments. Was he a wealthy man in my mind no. Was he happy absolutely not would I want to be like him hell no. So really it has nothing to do with money which I am sure others have pointed out. It's not what you save either it is what you have peace love enjoyment and happiness.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Apr 21, 2011 20:47:00 GMT -5
" I mean, there's a difference between prudence and hoarding due to irrational fear."
good one dark in my experience I would add serious control issues too. Usually stems from low internalized self worth. IMO
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Post by ty on Apr 21, 2011 20:58:52 GMT -5
You have to spend money to make money. I don't think any invention was ever pulled out of anyone's azz as far as I know. You have to buy materials and production cost to market an item. Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you have to spend money in order to create wealth. True, but it doesn't have to be your money. If you use other people's money to gamble with, you will have to pay up eventually for your debts. Better to gamble with your own than with other peoples cash.
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Post by straydog on Apr 21, 2011 21:55:48 GMT -5
True, but it doesn't have to be your money. If you use other people's money to gamble with, you will have to pay up eventually for your debts. Better to gamble with your own than with other peoples cash. I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding your logic. What if you don't have enough, and you may not want to turn to the banks unless as a last resort? I am looking into opening up a check cashing store. In my state, you are required to have $50,000 in the bank just to be allowed to do business. I do not quite have that much. So, after I get my business plan written up (and the reason I haven't gotten it written up yet is because I spend too much time here), I will then start calling and visiting businessmen that I know and show or give them the plan. Even if they aren't interested themselves, they may pass it on to someone else who has capital that is interested. Of course, if that doesn't work, then I will place an ad in the classifieds, and maybe apply for an SBA loan - nothing is off the table. But, If you think that I am going to go back to delivering pizza until I have $100,000 saved up (and that's a very rough estimate of what I think it will take to get this off the ground) to do this all on my own - then I have a bridge to sell you.
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IPAfan
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Post by IPAfan on Apr 24, 2011 10:44:12 GMT -5
Paul,
I've been reading your messages for a long time, and occasionally I find gems. Not sure if these are your own thoughts, or if you are paraphrasing a business writer?
"In spite of catchy book titles that suggest it, there's no "autopilot" system for becoming wealthy. Wealth is the result. You will become a wealthy person-- the kind of person that gets wealthy-- long before your income statement and balance sheet reflects the fact. It will be WHO you are that determines WHAT you get. "
I really like this statement, and it reflects my ideas about money management.
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IPAfan
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Post by IPAfan on Apr 24, 2011 11:11:09 GMT -5
Been reading some of the above posts about having to spend money to make money, and how it's possible to use other people's money to grow your business versus using your own money.
Most business failures result due to under-capitalization (so the business could be successful, but the business was never started with enough capital to give a buffer for operating expenses.) That's why it's so important for new entrepreneurs to avoid capital intensive businesses, and start a business which requires little capital to run. A service business is usually the best sort of business, but niche internet sales would fit as well.
I started a law practice in December 2009 with about $1,000. The advantage to a law practice is that the business doesn't require a LOT of capital, but it certainly requires some capital to remain healthy. Therefore, when starting the business from scratch you can survive with almost nothing, but need to invest capital to grow revenue (advertising, office space, administrative staff, etc.) IMO this is an ideal FIRST business for an entrepreneur for a few reasons, but it doesn't have to be a law practice. Other service/consulting businesses could work similarly, or property management, niche internet marketing, etc.
What I like about my business is that: 1) It required almost nothing to start, but is hungry for capital to grow the business; 2) When I DO put earnings back into the business I earn higher returns on that capital than anywhere else I can invest it 3) At some point (several years down the road) my business will put off more cash than it has opportunities for growth, and it should produce cash to invest in other businesses (or other assets.)
Don't get me wrong, I think businesses which require more capital can be GREAT BUSINESSES, but they're usually not the best business to start out in. Think about your small business as if it were a publicly traded company. If you can earn an above average return on invested capital (i.e. remain profitable without a lot of assets tied up) then your business is likely going to be valued at above the value of the assets used in the business, and you have a goodwill component to the valuation. The higher the return on invested capital, the higher the economic goodwill to your business.
So if you have a high ROIC business, you can put capital into the business and automatically create value by putting the assets inside the business where they can earn a high ROI. A high ROIC capital business can only accommodate so much capital before returns begin to decrease. At that point the business will need to begin looking at ways to create value without investing more capital into the business itself. An example would be Phillip Morris international which is a huge company that earns 35% unlevered on its assets. Since it can't devote all its efforts to growing the underlying business it boosts shareholder value by: 1) returning capital to shareholders through a hefty and growing dividend; and 2) borrows money at 5-6% to buy back shares effectively returning money to shareholders.
So I think that borrowing money to grow a business is a valid, and useful strategy. However, I think it should only be used by seasoned entrepreneurs, and is NOT a good way to start a first business. Better to focus on low capital business ideas (which will translate into high ROIC businesses) where you can create a valuable business with little capital.
Even low capital businesses need substantial money to grow. One of my next steps will be to hire an assistant. I expect this to cost $30,000 a year. I believe with the right system and SCALE in place my business can bring in enough extra revenue to earn a good return on the $30,000 I would be "investing" in an assistant. However, greater current liabilities (payroll obligations) require greater working capital (cash and receivables.) So I'll probably want an extra $10,000 in cash reserves (earning nothing) before I venture to hire an assistant.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Apr 24, 2011 14:57:06 GMT -5
I agree with you, patstab. My purpose in life isn't simply to accumulate material wealth either, but to have just enough to be happy and secure. I recently saw Tom Shadyac's interview about his documentary "I Am", and it really struck a chord with me. I have way more house than I need at the moment, but I live a pretty basic lifestyle otherwise and am pretty happy.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Apr 25, 2011 0:30:29 GMT -5
I am trying to strike a balance also. I splurge on assets but not on consumables until recently. Now I have enough saved to live in lower middle class for life. I figured I could live on 35K a year and have about 557K invested for retirement so with SS I will be fine even if I spend some. Since I plan to work two more years I might have as much as 600K saved even if I spend lavishly the next couple of years. But my lavish spending is less than some people's normal spending and still feels lavish.
We took a 3 day vacation last week to go to the ocean to get clams. I paid for all the food for the camper, and food on the way and a new space heater, and gave my boyfriend $100 towards the gas so my 3 day trip cost me about $250. He paid for the gas and our fishing licenses, camp ground fees so even after my $100 paid for part of a tank of gas he probably spent about the same so about $500 total for a three day vacation for 2 plus I spend 24 hours of accrued vacation I could have cashed out when I retire so that cost me about $600. So I spent about 850 on a three day trip, to me that is very luxurious spending and makes me happy to not even have to think of could I afford it.
I have also started shopping on Amazon and consider those packages to be free stuff since they don't need paid for, they have my credit card on file. I am spending an extra 200-300 a month now for Amazon stuff because it makes me fell rich to be able to without flinching.
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