Sleeping air traffic controllers

[robbase]

Somehow doctors in ERs, police, firemen, military, nurses, etc. all manage to stay awake for some of their crazy shifts, so what's the deal with controllers? I say just fire them.

and this idea of mandatory naptime??? absurd. I am pretty sure these guys get breaks and have a decent lunch time (probably at least 30 minutes)...why can't they do their own nap time? why does it have to be policed? Once every other week or so when I am run down I will close my door during lunch and nap or go into my car and nap (I can also figure out how to wake myself up too). If I can figure it out on my own, why can't these guys? must not like their job IMO

or am I missing something or being unreasonable?

and BTW I have worked all kinds of crazy shifts in my life (including 24hr shifts at times)

[Deleted]

I think it's easier to stay awake when you are actively doing something . . . like nurses do. Firefighters actually sleep at night unless they are fighting a fire . . . again doing something. But to stare at a screen for hours on end? The monotony would do me in.

[robbase]

I have had to do it on military sentry duty and on phone duty at night.

And isn't what they do at night the same thing as they do during the day? if it is so boring why are they not falling asleep during the day?

[Deleted]

Apr 17, 2011 9:52:46 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

I think it's easier to stay awake when you are actively doing something . . . like nurses do. Firefighters actually sleep at night unless they are fighting a fire . . . again doing something. But to stare at a screen for hours on end? The monotony would do me in.

I have to agree with this. I currently work 10-18 hours shift, and once in college had to work 24hrs because it was a snow storm and no one came in to relieve me and I could not leave the building (working as a security officer).

It is so much easier if you are moving around, keeping busy. My shortest days I work 9 hrs and sometimes barely see the time fly by. But it I am seating and just looking at a screen, I am certain those 9 hrs will feel like 18 and would easily fall asleep too.

[Deleted]

And isn't what they do at night the same thing as they do during the day? if it is so boring why are they not falling asleep during the day?

Our biological clocks tell us to sleep at night. If they are constantly on night shift, they will adjust their entire schedule around that. But it's harder than you think.

If they just pull night shift once a month or so, then they will be tired and sleepy. This is especially true after a couple of nights.

Also, day shift has more air traffic, etc. I think there would be more controllers on duty. The company would keep you awake.

[robbase]

our biological clocks tell us to sleep at night.

You know this is called part of the job....it is not biological to want to want to to go to war, fight a criminal that is not attacking you, dig inside of someone's guts to fix their heart valve, but you agree to that part of the job when you take the job. If you can't do your job, time to quit or be fired

and plenty of people work night shifts in spite of their biological clocks.

this just sounds so idiotic to me

and BTW, these guys are union- you really think they don't get any breaks or lunch during a 9 hour shift?

[Deleted]

Rob, please learn to read. I said that if they are constantly on night shift, they will adjust their entire schedule around that.

[robbase]

don't need to learn to read, I know how to already, thx for the personal attack

I don't care if they get a set schedule, schedule changes or whatever, as long as they have a reasonable time between shifts they should be able to do their jobs and stay awake, no matter their "biological clock"--otherwise quit or be fired

currently my wife works nightshift 2-3 days a week (random days - no set schedule-so she can't adjust), works normal-ish hours 2-3 other days a week (random)...and some days when she has night shift she has to come in for 4 hours or so prior tot hat and then come home and go back to work...guess what? she figures it out and stays awake. She only does "actual" work on night shift if they have emergency admins at night (she is a social worker and "helps" people admitted for suicide), otherwise she stares at stuff or does some boring paperwork....like I said she figurs out how to stay awake

also I was watching a segment on the news that quite a few controllers volunteer for back to back or crazy shifts so they can get 3 or 4 day weekends

[Gardening Grandma]

"I say just fire them. "

"it took over 10 years to get the air traffic controllers staff back to full after reagan fired them all.... "

tbird, karma for pointing that out. Personally, the next time I fly, I'm going to be wondering if the air traffic controller guiding my plane has had sufficient sleep.....

[zibazinski]

Then try not to worry about whether your intern or resident has had enough sleep or don't get sick in July when the newbies start "doctor practicing."

[Sum Dum Gai]

Somehow doctors in ERs, police, firemen, military, nurses, etc. all manage to stay awake for some of their crazy shifts, so what's the deal with controllers? I say just fire them.

I don't know about the other occupations on that list, but the typical military schedule is quite a bit different from that of air traffic controllers.

Military watch schedules are pretty frequently two days, two swings, two mids, two off. That means you'd work something like 7 am to 3 pm on Monday and Tuesday, 3 pm to 11 pm on Wednesday and Thursday, and 11 pm to 7 am on Friday and Saturday. Then you'd have two days to rest and report back to work at 7 am Tuesday of the following week. You'll notice that when you switch shifts, from days to swings or swings to mids, you have 24 hours between when one ends and the next one begins.

The typical air traffic controller schedule at busier airports is a 2-2-1 with shorter breaks between, and their rotation is two swings, two days, one mid.

They'd start by working 3 pm - 11 pm on Monday and Tuesday, 7 am - 3 pm on Wednesday and Thursday, and do their one one overnight shift from 11 pm Thursday to 7 am Friday. Then they'd have the rest of Friday and all of Saturday and Sunday off. They only have 8 hours off between the shifts when they jump from swings to days, and days to mids. Every fourth or fifth week, they either lose a day off or gain an extra one, so their days off drift over time and everyone covers an equal amount of weekends. That schedule would be a real bitch to get used to.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Rob, it sounds like your wife has a job where she can get up and walk around if it slow at night. That makes a huge difference. I used to work night shift and it was hreally hard to stay awake if you weren't actively doing something. I had several nights where I was doing a process that required you to stand or sit in one place for an hour staring at liquid coming out of a tube. It was brutal and I fell asleep several times. I don't know much about the intricacies of ATC but I would imagine you are pretty much tethered to the desk/radar. That combined with not having any company, constantly changing shifts (this really messes up your body), and decreased workload at night (Not enough distractions to keep you awake) leads to your body saying "It's bed time"... I know it happened to me and I am naturally a night owl (Usually stay up until 3 or 4 AM now). I can't imagine how hard it would be if you were just sitting around waiting for planes to come by. It also matters if their families/friends are supportive. A lot of night shift workers don't get enough sleep during the day because the rest of the world is awake and assumes that you have "all this freetime". A coworker of mine actually had one of his children die because his wife left the children with him to go run errands (He had worked ~12 hours the night before but she figured that it was 11:AM so he should be "awake").

It is crazy. The FAA should give these guys more consistent shifts (All nights, all swing, etc) and some coffee...

[Sum Dum Gai]

The FAA should give these guys more consistent shifts (All nights, all swing, etc) and some coffee...

There's a competency problem. The amount of traffic they handle on the overnight shift is tiny compared to days and swings. Especially on weekends and around heavy traffic holidays. They want all the controllers rotating through the busier times so they stay sharp.

I do question the need to have them rotate through on a weekly basis though. How much could they really forget if they went to monthly rotation instead, yanno?

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Dark, I understand but something has to give. You either give them consistent shifts, give them a buddy to talk to during the shift, give them naps, or accept that some will fall asleep and either do nothing or fire them. I would think that the last option would be the worst for maintaining competency.

They could maintain some form of competency by changing their shifts every few months (i.e. you work nights for one month, then have like 3 days off, work days for one month, etc). CHanging shifts in the middle of a work week is just a recipe for disaster though.

[robbase]

I don't know about the other occupations on that list, but the typical military schedule is quite a bit different from that of air traffic controllers.

military people pulling CQ (Charge of Quarters) duty for 24 hours stay awake and basically all they do is wait for the phone to ring (if it rings for a red cross message or something)...see what happenS if the comMander pops in during an off hour and catches the dude sleeping, no talk of nap time or "biological" clock I assure you

also people on FOBs in combat zone pulling sentry duty on night shift, etc.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

I can't speak for sentry duty but I pulled CQ a few times in my day. We had a buddy with us so that there were 2 people on each shift. You would have someone to talk to, you also had to patrol the perimeter every so often and one of you could go get food for the pair if you were working during a mealtime. That wasn't so bad because you had opportunities to wander and stretch, especially overnight. Maybe our unit was special...

[robbase]

and you really think these union air traffic controllers are chained to the room and screens for 8 hours straight???

they don't go to the bathroom? get a smoke break? a meal break? nothing? really?

[Sum Dum Gai]

I did six years from 01-07 supporting NORAD, USSPACECOM, AFSPACECOM, and NORTHCOM. I was on 24/7 shifts that whole time, and I never had to cover a mid shift by myself. We weren't allowed to. And we sure as hell didn't work a shift, get 8 hours off, then work another shift multiple times a week every single week. That's just crazy. These guys aren't patrolling a war zone for crying out loud.

[robbase]

And we sure as hell didn't work a shift, get 8 hours off, then work another shift multiple times a week every single week. That's just crazy.

well here is the thing, if you can't do the job, don't take the job. If you take the job and can't do it expect to be fired (preferrably you should quit prior to the firing)....Shocking theory I know...

I am glad to find out all these dudes were suspended and it sounds like the head Traffic Guy is emphasizing this thing called personal responsibility...but I guess I am just a mean guy

[Sum Dum Gai]

well here is the thing, if you can't do the job, don't take the job.

Ok, but we're talking about guys who have a tougher shift than doctors, firemen, and military. If they do a perfectly adequate job for ten years, then doze off once on a mid shift they should be fired? Really? There's personal responsibility and then there's setting unreasonable expectations.

[robbase]

Ok, but we're talking about guys who have a tougher shift than doctors, firemen, and military.

wow. really? air traffic controller at midnight is tougher than any other job at midnight? to include ER doc, firemen, military, etc.? Really? double wow

[Sum Dum Gai]

I said tougher shift, not tougher job. Firemen have bunks at the fire house. If there's no fire, they're asleep at midnight. Docs have rooms to catch shut eye in as well. Controllers aren't even allowed to nap on their breaks. They can be written up and fired for it. Military usually gets more time between changing shifts to adjust to the new hours, which I talked about earlier.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 17, 2011 11:23:09 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Rob, please learn to read. I said that if they are constantly on night shift, they will adjust their entire schedule around that.

I think that might be part of the problem. I don't remember what channel or news show it was on, but I thought they said something about working shifts that were 8on-8off-8on-etc. I don't know if it was just for 5 shifts or how many days that covered. In any case, it would be tough to get any type of sleeping schedule in that situation. As to the other posters talking about doing 24 hour shifts, it sounds like they were every once in a while, not on a regular basis. Imagine if firefighters who do 24on/24 off had to stay up their entire 24 hour shift....they'd get pretty tired, pretty quickly.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 18, 2011 21:02:21 GMT -5 @robbase said:

And we sure as hell didn't work a shift, get 8 hours off, then work another shift multiple times a week every single week. That's just crazy.

well here is the thing, if you can't do the job, don't take the job. If you take the job and can't do it expect to be fired (preferrably you should quit prior to the firing)....Shocking theory I know...

I am glad to find out all these dudes were suspended and it sounds like the head Traffic Guy is emphasizing this thing called personal responsibility...but I guess I am just a mean guy

The main traffic guy is looking for a scape goat...nothing more than playing politics.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Apr 18, 2011 17:36:48 GMT -5 @robbase said:

I don't know about the other occupations on that list, but the typical military schedule is quite a bit different from that of air traffic controllers.

military people pulling CQ (Charge of Quarters) duty for 24 hours stay awake and basically all they do is wait for the phone to ring (if it rings for a red cross message or something)...see what happenS if the comMander pops in during an off hour and catches the dude sleeping, no talk of nap time or "biological" clock I assure you

also people on FOBs in combat zone pulling sentry duty on night shift, etc.

It's not an everyday, or even every other day duty. If it is, then they adjust their sleep schedule accordingly.

[robbase]

interesting feedback, especially from this crowd

you guys do know these are dreaded "union" people, right? if the hours are really so bad, wouldn't the union have been already protesting? Any evidence of that?

when these people took their job, they were not aware of the wacky hours and shifts? umm no, they knew it and agreed to do it / stated they would be able to do it

quite a few voluntarily shift schedules to even crazier hours so they can have a 4 day weekend

and their should be no personal repsonsibility?

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

I am totally for personal responsibility on the part of the employees. That does not give mgt an excuse to put in ridiculous policies and stupid rules. If something is stupid, it is stupid. If it isn't working (and it obviously isn't because people are falling asleep), then mgt's job is to change something (either fire the incompetent people, hire more people, change the policies, etc). Either way, mgt gets paid the big bucks to make those decisions. If they don't want the job of decision making (including taking the personal responsibility when the policies you put in don't work), get out of mgt.