Vaccine mandate and employers

[ripvanwinkle]

I'm not sure I heard this right. On my way home from work today, the news on the radio said that in the new fed budget there is a mandate provision that any company with 100 or more employees must be vaccinated and if not the company can be fined $700k per non vaccinated person. Again I'm not sure I heard this right. Anyone else heard or read anything about this??

[dondub]

Oct 1, 2021 23:25:44 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

I'm not sure I heard this right. On my way home from work today, the news on the radio said that in the new fed budget there is a mandate provision that any company with 100 or more employees must be vaccinated and if not the company can be fined $700k per non vaccinated person. Again I'm not sure I heard this right. Anyone else heard or read anything about this??

Wrong station.

[mollyc]

Since I can't sleep anyway.... 

I found this at Forbes:

Mandate to be enforced by fining

"increase in fines for employers that “willfully,” “repeatedly,” or even seriously violate a section of labor law that deals with hazards, death, or serious physical harm to their employees.

The increased fines on employers could run as high as $70,000 for serious infractions, and $700,000 for willful or repeated violations—almost three-quarters of a million dollars for each fine."


If you look on Page 168 of the Build Back Better Act as the Forbes article mentions, they are increasing the fines for violations already set out in the Occupational Safety and Health Act, the Fair Labour Standards Act, and the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Workers Protection Act.

It seems they are adding or have added language with respect to Covid -19 to the OSHA Act.  I'm not bored enough to look that up.

Weren't meat plants trying to pretend everything was fine and avoiding setting up Covid protocols when this all started?  Were not the meat shortages in the US and Canada the result of large scale breakouts at meat packers and slaughter houses, etc, after they should have known better?  Maybe it wasn't on YMAM but there was certainly discussion on various boards I frequent about how the fines for violating OSHA and other rules were just considered to be the cost of doing business.  There was discussion that until the fines actually hurt the Shareholders, the businesses would just pay the fine and move on without fixing anything.

[pulmonarymd]

Is there a problem with what you heard?

[happyhoix]

Oct 2, 2021 1:28:29 GMT -5 mollyc said:

Since I can't sleep anyway.... 

I found this at Forbes:

Mandate to be enforced by fining

"increase in fines for employers that “willfully,” “repeatedly,” or even seriously violate a section of labor law that deals with hazards, death, or serious physical harm to their employees.

The increased fines on employers could run as high as $70,000 for serious infractions, and $700,000 for willful or repeated violations—almost three-quarters of a million dollars for each fine."


If you look on Page 168 of the Build Back Better Act as the Forbes article mentions, they are increasing the fines for violations already set out in the Occupational Safety and Health Act, the Fair Labour Standards Act, and the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Workers Protection Act.

It seems they are adding or have added language with respect to Covid -19 to the OSHA Act.  I'm not bored enough to look that up.

Weren't meat plants trying to pretend everything was fine and avoiding setting up Covid protocols when this all started?  Were not the meat shortages in the US and Canada the result of large scale breakouts at meat packers and slaughter houses, etc, after they should have known better?  Maybe it wasn't on YMAM but there was certainly discussion on various boards I frequent about how the fines for violating OSHA and other rules were just considered to be the cost of doing business.  There was discussion that until the fines actually hurt the Shareholders, the businesses would just pay the fine and move on without fixing anything.

It’s called the general duty clause. There are lots of specific rules regarding safety, like lock out tag out rules, and confined space rules, but in general, employers have a general duty to provide a safe work environment, and if an inspector comes to your work site and finds a situation that doesn’t have a specific rule against it in the OSHA regulations, they can nail you with the ‘general duty’ clause. 

So OSHA would consider it a violation of the general duty clause if you allowed unvaccinated and potentially infected employees to mingle with other employees. You could address this problem in multiple ways - only allow working at home, or if your workplace can accommodate it, have employees work in different offices or work rooms segregated from each other, or make vaccines mandatory, or require employees to wear masks and answer a series of screening questions before they can enter the building, to screen out anyone with symptoms.  Or the unvaccinated have to do a weekly test for Covid. 

$700 per person per violation is not an unusually high amount for a fine. If the company is responsive to OSHA and immediately changes their workplace they can almost always negotiate that down. It’s usually reserved for those companies who say ‘fuck OSHA, it’s my company and I’ll do what I like.”

We would be outraged if an employee had barefoot kids working in a cotton mill like they did in the 1890s, we should be equally outraged if an employer requires his employees to cram into a manufacturing plant with no attempt to keep the sick from infecting the healthy as a condition of their employment. 

[Tennesseer]

Oct 2, 2021 2:37:40 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Is there a problem with what you heard?

[Tiny]

Wait, Shouldn't Republicans be cheering for this? Shouldn't employers be embracing this as good

Isn't this an example of that much beloved "Trickle Down" theory?

Employers will have to spend money (you know that money they refuse to part with via taxes (which gets spent by the federal government on people who don't actually work (those lazy bums!) ) in order to track and maintain the records for the vaccination (or recent Covid test results) for their employees. I'm guessing employers will have more paperwork (may have to hire someone to do it) and/or will need some sort of digital way to track the info (have to buy software and do training - so more money spent).

Isn't this good? More hiring, more money in more workers pockets, a better economy? YaY! Trickle Down Economics!!

[djAdvocate]

all my employees are vaccinated, and I have LESS than 100 employees.
not sure why this is a big deal.

you can't hire someone who is undocumented, and the fines are similar.
what makes anyone think this is any less serious?

[ripvanwinkle]

Oct 2, 2021 11:27:41 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Wait, Shouldn't Republicans be cheering for this? Shouldn't employers be embracing this as good

Isn't this an example of that much beloved "Trickle Down" theory?

Employers will have to spend money (you know that money they refuse to part with via taxes (which gets spent by the federal government on people who don't actually work (those lazy bums!) ) in order to track and maintain the records for the vaccination (or recent Covid test results) for their employees. I'm guessing employers will have more paperwork (may have to hire someone to do it) and/or will need some sort of digital way to track the info (have to buy software and do training - so more money spent).

Isn't this good? More hiring, more money in more workers pockets, a better economy? YaY! Trickle Down Economics!!

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

[djAdvocate]

Oct 2, 2021 21:40:53 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Oct 2, 2021 11:27:41 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Wait, Shouldn't Republicans be cheering for this? Shouldn't employers be embracing this as good

Isn't this an example of that much beloved "Trickle Down" theory?

Employers will have to spend money (you know that money they refuse to part with via taxes (which gets spent by the federal government on people who don't actually work (those lazy bums!) ) in order to track and maintain the records for the vaccination (or recent Covid test results) for their employees. I'm guessing employers will have more paperwork (may have to hire someone to do it) and/or will need some sort of digital way to track the info (have to buy software and do training - so more money spent).

Isn't this good? More hiring, more money in more workers pockets, a better economy? YaY! Trickle Down Economics!!

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

how so?

to begin with, over half of all adults are vaccinated.

second, 1/3 of all people are employed by small employers.

so, we are basically talking about 1/3rd of the population.

AND THEY HAVE A CHOICE.  they can get vaccinated.

why are we fighting for them?  just out of curiosity.

it is not their right to put everyone else at risk in my company, your company, or anyone else's,

is it?

explain the flaw in my logic to me, please.

EDIT: I had ONE guy who was refusing the vaccine.  I told him he had to be vaccinated by the end of September, or I was putting him on leave- first PAID then UNPAID.  he threatened a religious exemption.  I told him that was fine, but I wanted him to provide me with the name of his church, proof that he has attended services regularly, verification of that proof by the church, and I want to see the church policy on vaccinations.  I realize that I took some risks in ASKING him about that, but he VOLUNTEERED it first, so I figured I had a fighting chance.

he got vaccinated. 

[billisonboard]

Oct 3, 2021 0:00:38 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 2, 2021 21:40:53 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

how so?

to begin with, over half of all adults are vaccinated.

second, 1/3 of all people are employed by small employers.

so, we are basically talking about 1/6th of the population.

AND THEY HAVE A CHOICE.

they can get vaccinated.

why are we fighting for them?  just out of curiosity.

it is not their right to put everyone else at risk in my company, your company, or anyone else's,

is it?

explain the flaw in my logic to me, please.

and the flip side is that employers have a responsibility to provide a safe working environment for employees. It would only be a company that fails to do so that would be subject to fines. 

[djAdvocate]

Oct 3, 2021 7:35:55 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Oct 3, 2021 0:00:38 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

how so?

to begin with, over half of all adults are vaccinated.

second, 1/3 of all people are employed by small employers.

so, we are basically talking about 1/6th of the population.

AND THEY HAVE A CHOICE.

they can get vaccinated.

why are we fighting for them?  just out of curiosity.

it is not their right to put everyone else at risk in my company, your company, or anyone else's,

is it?

explain the flaw in my logic to me, please.

and the flip side is that employers have a responsibility to provide a safe working environment for employees. It would only be a company that fails to do so that would be subject to fines. 

this is precisely right. 

let's say that 40% of the US population demanded to go barefoot.  would employers NOT have the right to fire them for that?  food service workers?  manufacturing?

bare feet are not contagious.  they would only injure the worker themselves.  this virus is a far more dangerous thing than bare feet.  why should employers/OSHA not be involved in this?  why should workers NOT have their employment at risk because of it?

again, I am willing to accept some sort of reasonable explanation.  I just can't think of any.

[happyhoix]

Oct 2, 2021 21:40:53 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Oct 2, 2021 11:27:41 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Wait, Shouldn't Republicans be cheering for this? Shouldn't employers be embracing this as good

Isn't this an example of that much beloved "Trickle Down" theory?

Employers will have to spend money (you know that money they refuse to part with via taxes (which gets spent by the federal government on people who don't actually work (those lazy bums!) ) in order to track and maintain the records for the vaccination (or recent Covid test results) for their employees. I'm guessing employers will have more paperwork (may have to hire someone to do it) and/or will need some sort of digital way to track the info (have to buy software and do training - so more money spent).

Isn't this good? More hiring, more money in more workers pockets, a better economy? YaY! Trickle Down Economics!!

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

You’re assuming people would chose to be fired rather than get vaccinated. My company has been talking about requiring vaccines or get weekly Covid tests, and suddenly a clump of people decided to get vaccinated.

I think right now we’re at about 60%, which is good in a red state area with maybe 45% vac rate in the general population.

[apple 2]

I manage a small business, 20 employees.
We require all employees and clients to wear masks and maintain social distance in our workspace.

I do not feel it appropriate, and am not required to make vaccination a condition of employment. 

[thyme4change]

Oct 3, 2021 0:00:38 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 2, 2021 21:40:53 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

how so?

to begin with, over half of all adults are vaccinated.

second, 1/3 of all people are employed by small employers.

so, we are basically talking about 1/3rd of the population.

AND THEY HAVE A CHOICE.  they can get vaccinated.

why are we fighting for them?  just out of curiosity.

it is not their right to put everyone else at risk in my company, your company, or anyone else's,

is it?

explain the flaw in my logic to me, please.

EDIT: I had ONE guy who was refusing the vaccine.  I told him he had to be vaccinated by the end of September, or I was putting him on leave- first PAID then UNPAID.  he threatened a religious exemption.  I told him that was fine, but I wanted him to provide me with the name of his church, proof that he has attended services regularly, verification of that proof by the church, and I want to see the church policy on vaccinations.  I realize that I took some risks in ASKING him about that, but he VOLUNTEERED it first, so I figured I had a fighting chance.

he got vaccinated. 

Your numbers are probably a smidgen off because the vaccination rates increase as age increases, and employment rates decrease as age crosses a threshold and increases. But, you are close enough.

Not sure why I felt the need to criticize. I guess I need to feel like a smart asshole today.

[Tiny]

Oct 2, 2021 21:40:53 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Oct 2, 2021 11:27:41 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Wait, Shouldn't Republicans be cheering for this? Shouldn't employers be embracing this as good

Isn't this an example of that much beloved "Trickle Down" theory?

Employers will have to spend money (you know that money they refuse to part with via taxes (which gets spent by the federal government on people who don't actually work (those lazy bums!) ) in order to track and maintain the records for the vaccination (or recent Covid test results) for their employees. I'm guessing employers will have more paperwork (may have to hire someone to do it) and/or will need some sort of digital way to track the info (have to buy software and do training - so more money spent).

Isn't this good? More hiring, more money in more workers pockets, a better economy? YaY! Trickle Down Economics!!

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

What do you mean?   A business has to provide info to the federal government to prove that their employees are vaccinated....   why isn't it good to have employers spend some of that tax break money they've been hording on having to keep track of their employees vaccination status?   There's plenty of so phone apps and such... I'm guessing there's some app that an employer can use to track their employees status as well -  I am assuming the employer isn't paying employees in cash - and is using some sort of payroll software OR payroll service - and I'm guess those will provide a place to track employees' info.   It's already tracking lots of stuff about each employee (married/single/divorced?  military service? birth day , SS, maybe education level, etc...)   what's one more "Y/N" flag for being vaccinated? 

How is that going to bankrupt a business?     


What is the ETHICAL responsibility of a business?? 

[djAdvocate]

Oct 3, 2021 12:23:47 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Oct 3, 2021 0:00:38 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

how so?

to begin with, over half of all adults are vaccinated.

second, 1/3 of all people are employed by small employers.

so, we are basically talking about 1/3rd of the population.

AND THEY HAVE A CHOICE.  they can get vaccinated.

why are we fighting for them?  just out of curiosity.

it is not their right to put everyone else at risk in my company, your company, or anyone else's,

is it?

explain the flaw in my logic to me, please.

EDIT: I had ONE guy who was refusing the vaccine.  I told him he had to be vaccinated by the end of September, or I was putting him on leave- first PAID then UNPAID.  he threatened a religious exemption.  I told him that was fine, but I wanted him to provide me with the name of his church, proof that he has attended services regularly, verification of that proof by the church, and I want to see the church policy on vaccinations.  I realize that I took some risks in ASKING him about that, but he VOLUNTEERED it first, so I figured I had a fighting chance.

he got vaccinated. 

Your numbers are probably a smidgen off because the vaccination rates increase as age increases, and employment rates decrease as age crosses a threshold and increases. But, you are close enough.

Not sure why I felt the need to criticize. I guess I need to feel like a smart asshole today.

i don't know whether to argue this point or not.  i was thinking that Trump voters are mostly elderly people, but then i remembered that there are a lot of young, uneducated white dudes that are anti-vaxxers.  i am not sure how this all breaks down, candidly.

[thyme4change]

Oct 3, 2021 13:07:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 3, 2021 12:23:47 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Your numbers are probably a smidgen off because the vaccination rates increase as age increases, and employment rates decrease as age crosses a threshold and increases. But, you are close enough.

Not sure why I felt the need to criticize. I guess I need to feel like a smart asshole today.

i don't know whether to argue this point or not.  i was thinking that Trump voters are mostly elderly people, but then i remembered that there are a lot of young, uneducated white dudes that are anti-vaxxers.  i am not sure how this all breaks down, candidly.

I only know what Google tells me - and that certainly has limits. My kids (17YO and 19YO) told me that young adults of all education levels and political proclivities feel like they don't need the vaccine, because Covid hasn't been as hard on the youngins. I don’t know how many minds Delta has changed.

This is from the Mayo website.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 3, 2021 12:37:02 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Oct 2, 2021 21:40:53 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

What do you mean?   A business has to provide info to the federal government to prove that their employees are vaccinated....   why isn't it good to have employers spend some of that tax break money they've been hording on having to keep track of their employees vaccination status?   There's plenty of so phone apps and such... I'm guessing there's some app that an employer can use to track their employees status as well -  I am assuming the employer isn't paying employees in cash - and is using some sort of payroll software OR payroll service - and I'm guess those will provide a place to track employees' info.   It's already tracking lots of stuff about each employee (married/single/divorced?  military service? birth day , SS, maybe education level, etc...)   what's one more "Y/N" flag for being vaccinated? 

How is that going to bankrupt a business?     


What is the ETHICAL responsibility of a business?? 

We had to upload a picture of our vaccine card on the app we use for payroll. Not sure how it is so hard. They don’t even need an app, just ask for a copy of their vaccine card. He is just trying to make it seem burdensome

[djAdvocate]

Oct 3, 2021 12:37:02 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Oct 2, 2021 21:40:53 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

What do you mean?   A business has to provide info to the federal government to prove that their employees are vaccinated....   why isn't it good to have employers spend some of that tax break money they've been hording on having to keep track of their employees vaccination status?   There's plenty of so phone apps and such... I'm guessing there's some app that an employer can use to track their employees status as well -  I am assuming the employer isn't paying employees in cash - and is using some sort of payroll software OR payroll service - and I'm guess those will provide a place to track employees' info.   It's already tracking lots of stuff about each employee (married/single/divorced?  military service? birth day , SS, maybe education level, etc...)   what's one more "Y/N" flag for being vaccinated? 

How is that going to bankrupt a business?     


What is the ETHICAL responsibility of a business?? 

this is a GREAT question:

if the choice is between killing your employees or personal bankruptcy, which would you choose?

for the record, I don't think this is a REAL choice.  but if that IS the choice, what do you choose?

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2021 12:06:04 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Oct 2, 2021 21:40:53 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

The only problem is this would bankrupt companies and put the workers out. But then again, it might be good for the company because the workers union if any, would be disbanded, no medical or pension benefits to pay out. A win for the company. 

You’re assuming people would chose to be fired rather than get vaccinated. My company has been talking about requiring vaccines or get weekly Covid tests, and suddenly a clump of people decided to get vaccinated.

I think right now we’re at about 60%, which is good in a red state area with maybe 45% vac rate in the general population.

Well, at MY job, we have a rebellious group of people. 

When the county I work in issued a mandate a few weeks ago, requiring that masks must be worn in public again, this group rebelled. Even though their department was the center of the latest outbreak of COVID cases at the job. While they had several coworkers they work closely with, out with COVID, and one was in the hospital on a ventilator and another one DIED from COVID, they were still adamantly refusing to follow the local mandate and wear masks, risking getting sent home from work and losing income. 

For whatever it’s worth, they were all white males, some of whom had been very vocal Trump supporters. Which already had me looking at them sideways, because if Trump and his buddies had their way, those same people would not have the income and benefits they have. I seriously can’t make it make sense.

A member of management who also was a Trump supporter (but is at least independently wealthy due to family wealth and inheritances and doesn’t HAVE to work any more) and also anti-vaccine and whatever….. even he didn’t understand why they would risk their income and jobs over wearing masks. 

They were willing to risk it all, just over wearing masks. We haven’t even gotten to vaccine mandates yet. I guess all hell will break loose for real if/when we are required to be vaccinated if we want to keep our jobs. Honestly, it makes me kind of nervous about what they might do if they are forced into what they perceive as “a corner”, because people are crazy these days and they are the type of people that own weapons and know how to use them. It’s not like no one has ever shot up their workplace because something pissed them off.

[Tennesseer]

Friday I got my Pfizer booster shot and my flu shot.  No side affects-no pain in the shots areas.

I don't understand what the big deal is.

[pulmonarymd]

Got my booster on Friday. Kicked my butt for about 24 hours

[Opti]

Oct 3, 2021 18:35:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Got my booster on Friday. Kicked my butt for about 24 hours

Did you do Pfizer for all three shots? Was the booster offered by your hospital?

[Tennesseer]

Oct 3, 2021 18:40:01 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 3, 2021 18:35:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Got my booster on Friday. Kicked my butt for about 24 hours

Did you do Pfizer for all three shots? Was the booster offered by your hospital?

If you are looking where to get your Pfizer booster shot, go to Walgreens. I got my Pfizer booster shot at Walgreens here in Memphis and my sister got her Pfizer booster shot the other day at a Walgreens in New Mexico where she lives.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 3, 2021 18:35:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Got my booster on Friday. Kicked my butt for about 24 hours

I got my Pfizer booster and flu shot at the same time; one shot in each arm. Was it my imagination that it seemed the booster shot needle went into the arm muscle a little deeper than the flu shot needle did? Was that (booster shot) possibly for a medical reason or just a coincidence.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 3, 2021 18:40:01 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 3, 2021 18:35:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Got my booster on Friday. Kicked my butt for about 24 hours

Did you do Pfizer for all three shots? Was the booster offered by your hospital?

Yes and yes

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 3, 2021 18:58:47 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 3, 2021 18:35:12 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Got my booster on Friday. Kicked my butt for about 24 hours

I got my Pfizer booster and flu shot at the same time; one shot in each arm. Was it my imagination that it seemed the booster shot needle went into the arm muscle a little deeper than the flu shot needle did? Was that (booster shot) possibly for a medical reason or just a coincidence.

No medical reason, giving an injection is not an exact science so it is possible one went deeper

[Tennesseer]

Thanks.

[Opti]

I think some of the refusers, think much like this woman-
Karen Roses of Riverhead, New York was fired from a Northwell Health hospital for refusing to take the coronavirus vaccine.

Roses said she won't get the vaccine because it feels "rushed" and "forced," and it doesn't guarantee that she won't get coronavirus or spread it to others. Experts have said the vaccine was developed quickly because countries and organizations heavily invested in its development, which saved time, as Insider's Mary Meisenzahl previously reported.



"God could come down and say to me, 'You must take this vaccine.' And I'd be like, 'Sorry, Charlie,'" Roses said. "It's not something that somebody specifically or a specific group has to tell me it's safe. My research has to tell me it's safe. The people that I talk to... I don't know how to really explain that, but I kind of have to see it for myself."

www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/a-healthcare-worker-who-was-just-fired-for-refusing-the-covid-19-shot-says-she-wouldn-t-get-it-even-if-god-said-you-must-take-this-vaccine/ar-AAP6hid?ocid=msedgntp