ripvanwinkle
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Post by ripvanwinkle on Jul 15, 2021 23:35:52 GMT -5
I saw a news story on the new child tax credit tonight. If you filed taxes and were under a certain dollar amount you got this $300 per child credit. Sounds great but also if you didn't file taxes you could still get it by going to a web site and file. I read some of the IRS requirements but it really seems ripe for fraud.
What if I work and get paid cash and don't file taxes? It says the kids have to live with me? What if I have 4 kids that live in another country with their grandma? I could lie and say they are here with me. How would the IRS find out? Some people are going to game the system.
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micky
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Post by micky on Jul 16, 2021 6:35:06 GMT -5
I really don't understand our government. They say this is about ending child poverty but is a family that makes $150,000 a year people we should worry about taking care of their children? So it's $3600 for each child and you can have as many children as you can have. I guess I don't understand the distinction between welfare and tax credit? Not being snarky, I just really don't understand this and the high income limits?
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jul 16, 2021 7:25:00 GMT -5
If the signing up online without a tax return system is as complicated as the one you have to go through to opt out, I don't think there will be much of an issue!
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2021 7:32:55 GMT -5
I really don't understand our government. They say this is about ending child poverty but is a family that makes $150,000 a year people we should worry about taking care of their children? So it's $3600 for each child and you can have as many children as you can have. I guess I don't understand the distinction between welfare and tax credit? Not being snarky, I just really don't understand this and the high income limits? I don't either, but I'd need to see the legislation and the phase outs. Odds are $150K is at or near the cutoff, and you would only get a small additional amount if you had say 5 kids. I forget where the EITC credits cut out on counting children/dependents.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jul 16, 2021 7:36:17 GMT -5
I really don't understand our government. They say this is about ending child poverty but is a family that makes $150,000 a year people we should worry about taking care of their children? So it's $3600 for each child and you can have as many children as you can have. I guess I don't understand the distinction between welfare and tax credit? Not being snarky, I just really don't understand this and the high income limits? I don't either, but I'd need to see the legislation and the phase outs. Odds are $150K is at or near the cutoff, and you would only get a small additional amount if you had say 5 kids. I forget where the EITC credits cut out on counting children/dependents. 150K (MFJ) is for the full additional credit. It starts to phase out after that at the rate of $50 per $1000 over. The regular child tax credit does not phase out until 400K AGI for MFJ.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 16, 2021 7:40:42 GMT -5
I really don't understand our government. They say this is about ending child poverty but is a family that makes $150,000 a year people we should worry about taking care of their children? So it's $3600 for each child and you can have as many children as you can have. I guess I don't understand the distinction between welfare and tax credit? Not being snarky, I just really don't understand this and the high income limits? I think the higher limits are try to figure out how to serve the folks living in HCOLA/VHCOLA. I wouldn't call folks living in NYC, Boston, or parts of CA making 150K wealthy beyond any stretch.
And the 3600 is only for kids under 5 or 6. Once they get older is 3K. Childcare could easily cost 30k+ a year. I live in a MCOLA, and infant daycare in a center is just about 2K a month. I don't know how removed you are from knowing how much childcare can run these days. My mom thought that daycare ran like $200 a week in my area these days. It's been 40+ years since she's had a kid in daycare.
I'm just curious about when you were upset about this? Was it in 2017, with the tax act was passed? Or just is it now? Because the Tax cut act of 2017 was the game changer for us. The pandemic boost was sort of the icing on the cake.
ETA: We do need people to procreate. Or we need to fix immigration laws. Our nation can't survive on less workers. Or, at least for right now, consumers aren't enjoying having less folks in the workforce.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jul 16, 2021 7:59:45 GMT -5
I saw a news story on the new child tax credit tonight. If you filed taxes and were under a certain dollar amount you got this $300 per child credit. Sounds great but also if you didn't file taxes you could still get it by going to a web site and file. I read some of the IRS requirements but it really seems ripe for fraud.
What if I work and get paid cash and don't file taxes? It says the kids have to live with me? What if I have 4 kids that live in another country with their grandma? I could lie and say they are here with me. How would the IRS find out? Some people are going to game the system.
What you describe has been happening forever just to claim kids as exemptions in the olden days. Yes, people will try this and game the system but it won't cost taxpayers as much as the 1% game the system.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2021 8:15:30 GMT -5
I don't either, but I'd need to see the legislation and the phase outs. Odds are $150K is at or near the cutoff, and you would only get a small additional amount if you had say 5 kids. I forget where the EITC credits cut out on counting children/dependents. 150K (MFJ) is for the full additional credit. It starts to phase out after that at the rate of $50 per $1000 over. The regular child tax credit does not phase out until 400K AGI for MFJ. Thanks for the info. That's all straight stuff like fed taxes, no normalization for COL, especially VHCOL versus LCOL, correct?
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jul 16, 2021 8:16:30 GMT -5
Yes, it's interesting how so many are in an uproar about the advance credits, but the child tax credit has been around for a long time. It used to only be $1000, but you could also claim the 4 or 5K exemption which they took away and replaced with upping the credit to 2K (only $1400 of which is refundable).
Now for 2021 only it's been upped to 3K ($3600 for 6 and under) and there are lots of people fuming. It must be because it's more visible as people are talking about getting their monthly payments rather than a lump sum. Really, all it is is a more targeted stimulus #4. Personally, I think advance credits are a bad idea because there are going to be people that qualified based on last year's and won't next year when they file...like divorced people that alternate years. Mom might be getting the advances now, but Dad is the one entitled to the credit next year at filing time.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2021 8:18:39 GMT -5
I do think monthly payments are good. Helps smooth out the budgeting, especially for those who really need this to get by.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 16, 2021 8:19:53 GMT -5
The middle class has been getting screwed every which way for decades now. Think about all the school programs that have been chipped away at due to funding issues. Bussing, pay for play sports, even drivers Ed was free back in my day. Not to mention public college fundingby states being cut, leading to huge jumps in tuition. But please, bitch about an extra $1000/ year. only the rich deserve any handouts in their pursuit of more riches. As Gira mentioned, an economy needs more people in order to grow. We need the middle class to reproduce more, unless we want to let in a lot more immigrants.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2021 8:24:20 GMT -5
I saw a news story on the new child tax credit tonight. If you filed taxes and were under a certain dollar amount you got this $300 per child credit. Sounds great but also if you didn't file taxes you could still get it by going to a web site and file. I read some of the IRS requirements but it really seems ripe for fraud.
What if I work and get paid cash and don't file taxes? It says the kids have to live with me? What if I have 4 kids that live in another country with their grandma? I could lie and say they are here with me. How would the IRS find out? Some people are going to game the system.
People game the system now. Multimillionaires and people like Trump do it for sometimes Millions of dollars. You are aware that the IRS audits tax payer returns far more often than they do millionaire tax cheats, right? I forget if the odds are like 10 to 1, 100 to 1 or even higher. And the auto processing of tax returns for those claiming certain credits like EITC, probably already have first line tax cheat checks.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jul 16, 2021 8:25:33 GMT -5
I haven’t kept up on this since not involved in any way. But it does explain the conversation I overheard between 2 employees in produce dept while shopping! Now two days later I am SMH but not surprised at the mentality.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 16, 2021 8:27:40 GMT -5
The middle class has been getting screwed every which way for decades now. Think about all the school programs that have been chipped away at due to funding issues. Bussing, pay for play sports, even drivers Ed was free back in my day. Not to mention public college fundingby states being cut, leading to huge jumps in tuition. But please, bitch about an extra $1000/ year. only the rich deserve any handouts in their pursuit of more riches. As Gira mentioned, an economy needs more people in order to grow. We need the middle class to reproduce more, unless we want to let in a lot more immigrants. Not just the middle class. The under class, those in perpetual poverty because of how our glorious capitalistic society works. Forgot the numbers, but Corey Booker was shown on TV discussing this, as was a graphic showing the number of households which will be above the poverty line just by this tweak for the tri-state area. I think it may have been around 3 million.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 16, 2021 9:27:56 GMT -5
The middle class has been getting screwed every which way for decades now. Think about all the school programs that have been chipped away at due to funding issues. Bussing, pay for play sports, even drivers Ed was free back in my day. Not to mention public college fundingby states being cut, leading to huge jumps in tuition. But please, bitch about an extra $1000/ year. only the rich deserve any handouts in their pursuit of more riches. As Gira mentioned, an economy needs more people in order to grow. We need the middle class to reproduce more, unless we want to let in a lot more immigrants. Not just the middle class. The under class, those in perpetual poverty because of how our glorious capitalistic society works. Forgot the numbers, but Corey Booker was shown on TV discussing this, as was a graphic showing the number of households which will be above the poverty line just by this tweak for the tri-state area. I think it may have been around 3 million. True. I forgot to mention that this (covid-era) is the first real help I've seen for me as a middle class person. (I know the underclass does get some, though not enough.) When my husband was supporting my whole family on a salary of $40-something, we still didn't even get reduced lunches through the school. I guess we could have gotten WIC very, very briefly, but I didn't feel like the kids were suffering nutritionally, which was one of the qualifications for that. My point is, before this, you had to be pretty destitute to qualify for any aid whatsoever, while the squeeze has been consistent and growing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 9:34:54 GMT -5
What you describe has been happening forever just to claim kids as exemptions in the olden days. Yes, people will try this and game the system but it won't cost taxpayers as much as the 1% game the system. Fraud is fraud. It's not any less culpable if it's done by someone with less money and it's still a waste of taxpayer funds. The book "Freakonomics" has a chapter on the massive number of children who "disappeared" after the IRS required that people supply a SSN for children claimed as dependents. That ticked me off. I've said it before but I wish these payouts, credits, stimulus checks, etc. had been better-focused on people who needed them. The first ones were deployed quickly to get the money out ASAP. I understand that. But I don't know why DS, who makes something like $65K/year and DDIL, a SAHM, in a LCOL area, 3 kids but room in the budget to tithe to their church and save as well, are getting stimulus checks. They agree with me and have given what they received to charity or to people they know are really hurting. And AARP was bragging about the fact that they lobbied successfully to get checks for people on SS (and no, I didn't get any). SS income was NOT affected by COVID. We could have done more to get the money where there was genuine need and to give those people more.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 16, 2021 9:59:42 GMT -5
What you describe has been happening forever just to claim kids as exemptions in the olden days. Yes, people will try this and game the system but it won't cost taxpayers as much as the 1% game the system. Fraud is fraud. It's not any less culpable if it's done by someone with less money and it's still a waste of taxpayer funds. The book "Freakonomics" has a chapter on the massive number of children who "disappeared" after the IRS required that people supply a SSN for children claimed as dependents. That ticked me off. I've said it before but I wish these payouts, credits, stimulus checks, etc. had been better-focused on people who needed them. The first ones were deployed quickly to get the money out ASAP. I understand that. But I don't know why DS, who makes something like $65K/year and DDIL, a SAHM, in a LCOL area, 3 kids but room in the budget to tithe to their church and save as well, are getting stimulus checks. They agree with me and have given what they received to charity or to people they know are really hurting. And AARP was bragging about the fact that they lobbied successfully to get checks for people on SS (and no, I didn't get any). SS income was NOT affected by COVID. We could have done more to get the money where there was genuine need and to give those people more. No, but many elderly had to give up their jobs that helped add to their their SS income for safety reasons. Not only that, they started paying for grocery delivery, etc. as well. Many people working did not have their income affected either. We did not receive any of the stimulus checks, rightly so. But I don’t begrudge those on SS who received stimulus checks as many are living in more dire straights than either you or I. My SM is one of those. To avoid covid, she had her groceries delivered. I am sure her stimulus payments in no way covered her increased costs she took to try to remain safe.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 16, 2021 10:07:41 GMT -5
All the bitching about an extra grand or two for regular folks, but nothing about companies getting millions that they didn't need from PPP. I guess that's fine and dandy.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 16, 2021 10:15:48 GMT -5
Advance Child Tax Credit Payments Going Out This WeekBrent Turner, CEO of Liberty Tax, said it’s important to understand the payments are not treated like stimulus checks. The child tax credit is an advance payment of a credit that already exists. Though the credit amount has increased, taking advance payments will impact your federal income tax refund next year. “If you're going to get a $3,000 credit for your child, but you're getting $1,500 in that credit upfront or in these advance payments, what's going to happen is they're going to take the $1,500 that's already been paid to you and deduct it from your tax refund,” explained Turner. “A lot of our taxpayers actually need that money today. So, it's a great way of managing your budget, managing your bills now,” added Turner. “Just realize that it is going to impact your refund for the next season.” Complete article here: link
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jul 16, 2021 12:11:02 GMT -5
BIL who works at Block said a lot of his clients opted out of the advance payment because they like the big check all at once.
The cost of living in Des Moines is higher than the cost of living in my small town, mostly due to the cost of housing. Just think the more kids your son and DIL have, the more money they will get.
It would cost a lot of money to make sure that only people that some defines as "truly needed them" get these checks. How is that defined? The cost of living in Des Moines is not the same as the cost of living in Denver (where I can't afford to return). The cost of living in Denver is lower than the cost of living in NYC.
The tax rates themselves have not been based on where people live. Who gets to decide who needs these things? Certainly the GOP agrees these should not have gone out because they did not vote in favor of these. Guess who is taking credit now for this money going in to people's bank accounts, at least in this state. Yes, 2 senators and 3 representatives, all GOP, who voted no. The only Democrat voted yes.
If people who receive them think they shouldn't, donate it to a place that helps feed and shelter poor people.
There are people, even on this forum, who will never understand poverty because they have never been close to living that way or have known anyone who lives that way. While a good portion of people in this town of 2000 make decent incomes with two people working, there is a large number who live at the poverty level.
My parents kept it pretty well hidden from us as a kid, but they lived paycheck to paycheck until we got out of high school. They considered themselves poor. That is why they didn't contribute a dime to either of our college educations. They had nothing saved for retirement until we left home. Every family in the neighborhood was like this--just trying to make it from paycheck to paycheck. They would have been thrilled to have had this kind of extra money when we were young. In those days, many women didn't work outside the home. My mom always worked outside the home--as a waitress who worked for tips. It killed her legs as she aged and she had to find a job where she could be off her feet.
Please quit harping on poor people. Trying to have empathy, as hard as that seems to be.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2021 12:30:15 GMT -5
I really don't understand our government. They say this is about ending child poverty but is a family that makes $150,000 a year people we should worry about taking care of their children? So it's $3600 for each child and you can have as many children as you can have. I guess I don't understand the distinction between welfare and tax credit? Not being snarky, I just really don't understand this and the high income limits? I think the higher limits are try to figure out how to serve the folks living in HCOLA/VHCOLA. I wouldn't call folks living in NYC, Boston, or parts of CA making 150K wealthy beyond any stretch.
And the 3600 is only for kids under 5 or 6. Once they get older is 3K. Childcare could easily cost 30k+ a year. I live in a MCOLA, and infant daycare in a center is just about 2K a month. I don't know how removed you are from knowing how much childcare can run these days. My mom thought that daycare ran like $200 a week in my area these days. It's been 40+ years since she's had a kid in daycare.
I'm just curious about when you were upset about this? Was it in 2017, with the tax act was passed? Or just is it now? Because the Tax cut act of 2017 was the game changer for us. The pandemic boost was sort of the icing on the cake.
ETA: We do need people to procreate. Or we need to fix immigration laws. Our nation can't survive on less workers. Or, at least for right now, consumers aren't enjoying having less folks in the workforce.
She was closer than my MIL was. She thought I could get it for $50 a week. I said maybe I could but I don't think that's the type of person I want watching my kids nowadays. Has anyone bothered to read about how they are predicting millions of kids will be lifted out of poverty with this? Why is that a bad thing? Oh that's right because they shouldn't have had kids to begin with and if they are poverty stricken should either be ripped away and stuck in orphanges, given to good moral higher paying straight white couples OR should continue to experience the burden so they won't end up as POS like their parents.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 16, 2021 12:54:09 GMT -5
If the payments are enough, women can stay home and take care of their kids, instead of working and let someone else raise them. Isn't that what conservatives have been complaining about/
The birth rate in this country plunged during COVI. It has rebounded, but not to where it was before. Not sure where we will get all the taxpayers to contribute to SS for those who are retiring in 10-15 years. It is either do whatever we can to increase birthrates(and that may require us paying people to procreate) or letting more people into the country. Guess we have some hard choices ahead of us. It is not a problem that can be fixed immediately.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 16, 2021 12:56:26 GMT -5
I was single for a good part of my life, and I paid for a plethora of services that I never received AND I got raked over the coals tax wise because I was single. There was a time where I was paying 20+% of my $40k salary in combined taxes. Figured it was a part of living in an educated and (minimally) healthy society.
So the idea of bitching that people with children are getting their tax break as it accrues rather than just in one lump sum at the end of the year just makes me wonder about where these people’s priorities are.
We pay a shit ton of taxes, way over what I was paid while working. What pisses ME off are the very wealthy who have worked the loopholes to pay nothing. For those who are unhappy with these people getting their tax deductions early, why aren’t you complaining about the Trumps, Bezos and Musks paying squat?
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Jul 16, 2021 13:09:38 GMT -5
I was single for a good part of my life, and I paid for a plethora of services that I never received AND I got raked over the coals tax wise because I was single. There was a time where I was paying 20+% of my $40k salary in combined taxes. Figured it was a part of living in an educated and (minimally) healthy society. So the idea of bitching that people with children are getting their tax break as it accrues rather than just in one lump sum at the end of the year just makes me wonder about where these people’s priorities are. We pay a shit ton of taxes, way over what I was paid while working. What pisses ME off are the very wealthy who have worked the loopholes to pay nothing. For those who are unhappy with these people getting their tax deductions early, why aren’t you complaining about the Trumps, Bezos and Musks paying squat?Because they are rich white guys
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jul 16, 2021 13:27:48 GMT -5
I really don't understand our government. They say this is about ending child poverty but is a family that makes $150,000 a year people we should worry about taking care of their children? So it's $3600 for each child and you can have as many children as you can have. I guess I don't understand the distinction between welfare and tax credit? Not being snarky, I just really don't understand this and the high income limits? Follow the money. This isn’t really about child poverty. It’s about buying future votes.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Jul 16, 2021 13:30:27 GMT -5
I really don't understand our government. They say this is about ending child poverty but is a family that makes $150,000 a year people we should worry about taking care of their children? So it's $3600 for each child and you can have as many children as you can have. I guess I don't understand the distinction between welfare and tax credit? Not being snarky, I just really don't understand this and the high income limits? Follow the money. This isn’t really about child poverty. It’s about buying future votes. That was my thought. There are a LOT of voters in between poverty and 150K AGI. I'm sure it's a lot easier to get support for a credit if the bulk of your voters are going to receive it.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jul 16, 2021 13:37:46 GMT -5
What you describe has been happening forever just to claim kids as exemptions in the olden days. Yes, people will try this and game the system but it won't cost taxpayers as much as the 1% game the system. Fraud is fraud. It's not any less culpable if it's done by someone with less money and it's still a waste of taxpayer funds. The book "Freakonomics" has a chapter on the massive number of children who "disappeared" after the IRS required that people supply a SSN for children claimed as dependents. That ticked me off. I've said it before but I wish these payouts, credits, stimulus checks, etc. had been better-focused on people who needed them. The first ones were deployed quickly to get the money out ASAP. I understand that. But I don't know why DS, who makes something like $65K/year and DDIL, a SAHM, in a LCOL area, 3 kids but room in the budget to tithe to their church and save as well, are getting stimulus checks. They agree with me and have given what they received to charity or to people they know are really hurting. And AARP was bragging about the fact that they lobbied successfully to get checks for people on SS (and no, I didn't get any). SS income was NOT affected by COVID. We could have done more to get the money where there was genuine need and to give those people more. I don’t think the stimulus checks really had anything to do with need. The stimulus checks were about putting money into the US economy to try to avoid another ‘08/‘09 type crash.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 16, 2021 14:15:32 GMT -5
I really don't understand our government. They say this is about ending child poverty but is a family that makes $150,000 a year people we should worry about taking care of their children? So it's $3600 for each child and you can have as many children as you can have. I guess I don't understand the distinction between welfare and tax credit? Not being snarky, I just really don't understand this and the high income limits? Follow the money. This isn’t really about child poverty. It’s about buying future votes. I'd rather they buy my vote directly than buy my vote through campaign donations that actually benefit mega corps. Call me crazy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 14:40:05 GMT -5
I don’t think the stimulus checks really had anything to do with need. The stimulus checks were about putting money into the US economy to try to avoid another ‘08/‘09 type crash. Well, then, why didn’t I get any of them? I still think the 2 later ones could have been better-focused- maybe more to people currently or recently on the unemployment rolls, less to the others who were continuously employed.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 16, 2021 15:08:36 GMT -5
I was surprised to get $167 for my kid. I must be in the "phase out" income range. I did not expect anything.
We bought dinner for all of my son's friends twice, and that was probably close to the whole amount. But, it has been churned into the economy. Woo hoo.
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