What? Socialism for the rich?

[Deleted]

This from the guy whose pay is about $3700/week and who's as rich as Croesus!

link

[jerseygirl]

Agree with him, why does anyone in government want to send $2000 to people who have jobs and aren’t needy?
Make people more dependent on government?

[billisonboard]

“Borrowing from our grandkids to do socialism for rich people is a terrible way to get help to families who actually need it,” McConnell said 

Okay. Now draft, introduce, and get passed a bill to help this who actually need it. Put up or shut up.

[oped]

Why did 56 new people become billionaires during the pandemic and 800,000 fall into poverty? 

It isn't just people who are unemployed who are hurt by the pandemic. There are lots of people who have had expenses increase due to the pandemic who are also hurting.  For those who are unemployed, Unemployment isn't available to everyone easily or equally. 

I'd really have liked to have essential employees given bonuses. I'd really like those who are underemployed due to the pandemic to have had bonuses. I'd like a lot of things. I'll take this. Its a minimum of what could have been done. Its a throwing a bit of cake to the masses so they don't realize once a fucking again the rich are killing it while so many of the rest die. 

[Opti]

Then change the bill's income limits and possibly change the $600 to $1000. The people who need to pay their landlords something could use at least some $$ now. I've read all the eviction protections have lapsed. 

[oped]

Dec 31, 2020 14:42:54 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

“Borrowing from our grandkids to do socialism for rich people is a terrible way to get help to families who actually need it,” McConnell said 

Okay. Now draft, introduce, and get passed a bill to help this who actually need it. Put up or shut up.

Never gives a fuck when its give more to the rich... the really rich... 

[pulmonarymd]

In addition, I thought this phases out at 75k. Not rich in my book. Maybe well off. They could lower the threshold for phaseout if they wanted to help, but that would require caring.

[Opti]

Dec 31, 2020 14:35:15 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Agree with him, why does anyone in government want to send $2000 to people who have jobs and aren’t needy?
Make people more dependent on government?

I doubt a one time payment is going to make anyone dependent on the govt. As you probably know, in NJ that is one rent payment, but not two unless you have good subsidized housing or are renting a room.

[Deleted]

The deficit hawks didn't have a bit of trouble passing out $$ via tax breaks for big business and wealthy Americans. Now, all of a sudden, they're worried about where the money's coming from? Gimme a break.

[alabamagal]

So I’m pretty fiscally conservative, and DH and I are near the top of the income limits to get stimulus money. I know I should theoretically be against giving out money to people who don’t need it. But the government is not good at separating those who need from those who don’t. So even if we get $4k if extra $2k per person is approved, I am justifying it as a tax break, since we are paying $15k in Federal taxes this year. If you take out our stimulus “refunds” we are still paying a good bit of taxes.

[oped]

We could have been more targeted in aid... if they had started in May figuring out who needs it and giving it to them... but at this point? 

We don't need it, but would use most of it as stimulus. I have been buying from small local businesses all along. Last time I re-upped our zoo, local art theater and science museum memberships, bought a children's museum membership for a friend who still has young kids (i don't need it now but would like the place to still be around if i ever get grandkids, and for the community), etc. That type of thing that flows to local organizations.  I'd probably also give some to the kids since dependent adults are still not included. 

As far as the current bill just passed... I bought $600 worth of paint today and told husband that was his  

[Miss Tequila]

The cutoff should be way lower than $75k. On the other hand, a stimulus payment isn’t meant to help the poor. It’s meant to stimulate the economy. If people start pumping the $2k into the local businesses that were shut down, maybe some can be saved.

We don’t qualify for stimulus money so I can see how it’s easy to be annoyed about it. On the other hand, there are so many bars/restaurants that aren’t going to make it. Maybe this will help save some businesses and jobs.

[giramomma]

I lost my post, but, I'm having troubles seeing how a couple grossing 250K can get their AGI down to 146K.

(Sure, there are special snowflake examples. My work allows me to contribute to both a 403b and a 457. So, DH and I have close to 60K in retirement space, if we could afford to use it. You can put 50-something away a year in for a SEP IRA or 401k, forgotten which).

At best, even will maxing retirement space, doing 5K of child care pre-tax, and fulling funding an HSA..that's only 52K off a gross of 250K... HDHP plans aren't expensive. My workplace one for a family was like $100 a month.

So, what am I missing with Mitch's example?

Otherwise, I think it's too hard to figure out need, TBH, in the middle class.

We are not considered well off, as a family of 6 and making less than 100K. We don't pay any federal taxes beyond FICA. But, we also have a decently sized taxable account. (that we also don't have to pay taxes on the dividends because Bush tax cuts and been poor in the eyes of the gov't).

So, what's the metric for deciding whether or not we deserve the stimulus?

ETA: How do you begin to take COL into account? I'm pretty sure San Fran, Boston, and NYC living on 250K gross would be very unappealing.

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2020 15:50:26 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

The cutoff should be way lower than $75k. On the other hand, a stimulus payment isn’t meant to help the poor. It’s meant to stimulate the economy. If people start pumping the $2k into the local businesses that were shut down, maybe some can be saved.

We don’t qualify for stimulus money so I can see how it’s easy to be annoyed about it. On the other hand, there are so many bars/restaurants that aren’t going to make it. Maybe this will help save some businesses and jobs.

I don't know.  We aren't exactly being encouraged to go to bars and restaurants or even shopping.  And many of them got PPP $$$.

It should be tied to unemployment, but that didn't work out so well either when they paid people who were not working more than they got when they worked.  They gave renters a break on evictions, but that hasn't worked out so well for landlords.  They gave people a break on student loans, but that was another case of "whether you need it or not."  

There are no easy answers.

[Deleted]

Ordinarily I don't agree with Mitch McConnell but I do in this case. 

I'm getting zero and I'm OK with that.  The first stimulus payment was meant to get deployed quickly without a lot of wrangling about who "deserved" it. Fine. This one should have been directed to needy people.  One possibility would be those who were unemployed for at least part of the last 6 months or so.  Even if they've since found new jobs it would help them catch up.  That would mean zero checks for most SS recipients and those in unaffected industries.  Last I looked, SS was showing up in my checking account every month like clockwork.  COVID did not affect it.

We could have done a lot more with the same money to help the unemployed and we had the tools to do it.

And yes, I agree with him that we're borrowing from our grandkids.

[TheOtherMe]

I don't see how "need" can be determined in the middle class.  A questionnaire can't be sent to everyone.  

On my pension, I qualify for low income housing in Colorado but make about $3000 too much to qualify in Iowa.

I'm not going to complain about the limits of $75K for single and $150K for couples.  Too many people are hurting and there is no efficient way to make a case by case determination.  

Phone calls made to the governor are not getting her to use the state's rainy day fund to help feed and house people.  Lots of rural rentals are total dumps but people are not able to make rent.  Food lines are longer than ever according to various charities.  Lots of people needed help with gifts for kids at Christmas.  

If you think you don't need it, do what a couple of my friends did with the last one.  Neither got the full amount due to income.  They gave it to people whose services they were not comfortable using and didn't go through a charity to do it

[billisonboard]

Dec 31, 2020 16:19:27 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I lost my post, but, I'm having troubles seeing how a couple grossing 250K can get their AGI down to 146K.

(Sure, there are special snowflake examples. My work allows me to contribute to both a 403b and a 457. So, DH and I have close to 60K in retirement space, if we could afford to use it. You can put 50-something away a year in for a SEP IRA or 401k, forgotten which).

At best, even will maxing retirement space, doing 5K of child care pre-tax, and fulling funding an HSA..that's only 52K off a gross of 250K... HDHP plans aren't expensive. My workplace one for a family was like $100 a month.

So, what am I missing with Mitch's example?

Otherwise, I think it's too hard to figure out need, TBH, in the middle class.

We are not considered well off, as a family of 6 and making less than 100K. We don't pay any federal taxes beyond FICA. But, we also have a decently sized taxable account. (that we also don't have to pay taxes on the dividends because Bush tax cuts and been poor in the eyes of the gov't).

So, what's the metric for deciding whether or not we deserve the stimulus?

ETA: How do you begin to take COL into account? I'm pretty sure San Fran, Boston, and NYC living on 250K gross would be very unappealing.

Hard? Yes, "too hard"? I don't think so if the focus is on negatively impacted by Covid instead of on "need". I think that being on unemployment is one good indicator. Another could be assessed with subtracting 2020 income from 2019, perhaps factoring in IRA/401 non-contributions. That second one is something a wiser brain might be able to explain why it isn't a good idea. I don't think just throwing up our hands on figuring something out is necessary.

[thyme4change]

Dec 31, 2020 16:30:14 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Dec 31, 2020 15:50:26 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

The cutoff should be way lower than $75k. On the other hand, a stimulus payment isn’t meant to help the poor. It’s meant to stimulate the economy. If people start pumping the $2k into the local businesses that were shut down, maybe some can be saved.

We don’t qualify for stimulus money so I can see how it’s easy to be annoyed about it. On the other hand, there are so many bars/restaurants that aren’t going to make it. Maybe this will help save some businesses and jobs.

I don't know.  We aren't exactly being encouraged to go to bars and restaurants or even shopping.  And many of them got PPP $$$.

It should be tied to unemployment, but that didn't work out so well either when they paid people who were not working more than they got when they worked.  They gave renters a break on evictions, but that hasn't worked out so well for landlords.  They gave people a break on student loans, but that was another case of "whether you need it or not."  

There are no easy answers.

If they paid people unemployment according to their average weekly income the previous year, there would be people who won't go back to work, but with the high unemployment someone will take the jobs that are out there. It also gives people who are high risk an out instead of forcing them to put themselves at risk.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Given how awesome our government does at other things I am not sure I want them trying to figure out who is qualified and who is not.  I remember the fiasco with the Bush tax cuts and how people got more than they should have because of some sort of error and you had to pay it back at tax time.

Yeah some people, us included don't really "deserve" one but if it gets the cash into the hands of the people who DO need it faster and doesn't result in a gut punch later down the road to said people then IMO go ahead and blanket give everyone $600.

They did that with EBT cards in the summer here in Council Bluffs.  Everyone enrolled in the school system got $600 per kid to be able to buy food since the summer food programs weren't operating.  State rules were they went to anyone who gets free lunch.  CB is part of the pilot program where EVERYONE gets free lunch.   It was determined rather than trying to shift through every family's information to see who truly qualified for free lunch vs those of us who did not it was more efficient and got money into hands faster to just give everyone in the school system one.

There is no perfect way to do any of this.  I mean they screwed up on round one of checks and we want them to add even more layers onto it?  You know that they would never go out right because Congress would be in an endless debate over who is "worthy" of one.  Look at YM in regards to who we deem worthy of food stamps.  Imagine that on the Congressional level.  So much easier and faster to just give it to everyone regardless of need.

Now in regards to when the bill for all this finally comes due is a different discussion all together.   I read a really good article on CNN about how far removed BOTH parties are in regards to spending government money without any input from those they claim to represent.   We all need to start demanding accountability on the part of our representatives.  

[TheOtherMe]

Dec 31, 2020 16:31:52 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Ordinarily I don't agree with Mitch McConnell but I do in this case. 

I'm getting zero and I'm OK with that.  The first stimulus payment was meant to get deployed quickly without a lot of wrangling about who "deserved" it. Fine. This one should have been directed to needy people.  One possibility would be those who were unemployed for at least part of the last 6 months or so.  Even if they've since found new jobs it would help them catch up.  That would mean zero checks for most SS recipients and those in unaffected industries.  Last I looked, SS was showing up in my checking account every month like clockwork.  COVID did not affect it.

We could have done a lot more with the same money to help the unemployed and we had the tools to do it.

And yes, I agree with him that we're borrowing from our grandkids.

If Mitch had dealt with this when the House passed it's bill, there was time to do more.  It's his fault it has to be done in a hurry.

Do you realize there are lots of people living only on SS and they are barely making it?  Anything extra they get can help them with things they can't afford.


Do you realize my niece who is a nurse was furloughed when there were no elective surgeries.  Yes, she is back to work, but the unemployment didn't cover what she made.  

Take a drive through the poor and middle class parts of your town and see if you can find some empathy.  Too many wealthy people are unable to feel empathy.

[TheOtherMe]

I was preparing tax returns when Bush had money sent to people including SS recipients.  My boss did not charge for those returns.  

The things I had people tell me they were going to do with the money were heart breaking.  

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2020 16:41:35 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Do you realize my niece who is a nurse was furloughed when there were no elective surgeries.  Yes, she is back to work, but the unemployment didn't cover what she made.  

Take a drive through the poor and middle class parts of your town and see if you can find some empathy.  Too many wealthy people are unable to feel empathy.

And that's why I suggested that it be given to people who had been recently unemployed even if they've returned to work. As for seeing poverty- I've been to India multiple times. I know what poverty looks like.

And, while I try to keep this between God, me and the IRS, I just finished doing an estimate of my taxes and in 2020 I gave nearly 1/3 of my Adjusted Gross Income to charities. I'm not just spending it on Coach purses and crab legs.

[NastyWoman]

Dec 31, 2020 15:50:26 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

The cutoff should be way lower than $75k. On the other hand, a stimulus payment isn’t meant to help the poor. It’s meant to stimulate the economy. If people start pumping the $2k into the local businesses that were shut down, maybe some can be saved.

We don’t qualify for stimulus money so I can see how it’s easy to be annoyed about it. On the other hand, there are so many bars/restaurants that aren’t going to make it. Maybe this will help save some businesses and jobs.

These cutoffs should have an adjusting factor for COL. $75k in a smallish midwestern or southern county goes a lot farther than $75k in many other regions of the country. Yes, I know that no one is "forced" to live in a HCOL area but that is where the jobs have been, and that is where most of the federal tax dollars that are distributed come from as well. Yet, as soon as money is distributed we conveniently forget about that factor. Yet it would only be fair.

Note that if they would do that I would probably get a lot more money and would just pass it along to a foodbank. But fhat is only because of my stage of life and preparedness for retirement. With a paid of condo, no dependents, and little interest in buying stuff I have no financial problems. Others are scrambling though.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 31, 2020 16:30:14 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Dec 31, 2020 15:50:26 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

The cutoff should be way lower than $75k. On the other hand, a stimulus payment isn’t meant to help the poor. It’s meant to stimulate the economy. If people start pumping the $2k into the local businesses that were shut down, maybe some can be saved.

We don’t qualify for stimulus money so I can see how it’s easy to be annoyed about it. On the other hand, there are so many bars/restaurants that aren’t going to make it. Maybe this will help save some businesses and jobs.

I don't know.  We aren't exactly being encouraged to go to bars and restaurants or even shopping.  And many of them got PPP $$$.

It should be tied to unemployment, but that didn't work out so well either when they paid people who were not working more than they got when they worked.  They gave renters a break on evictions, but that hasn't worked out so well for landlords.  They gave people a break on student loans, but that was another case of "whether you need it or not."  

There are no easy answers.

All the government did was push the renters hardship off on landlords. I accept the risk when I rent but I know I can have someone out in 45 days if they do not pay. If the government wants to force me to let deadbeats stay in my apartment, the government should be paying their rent.

That’s the problem with all of this. The government makes mandates and expects businesses to just absorb it.

As for PPP loans, a good chunk of that had to be used for payroll. It wasn’t meant to keep businesses open but to keep employees working.

As for restaurants, everything I’ve read said it was house gatherings causing 60% of the spread. We went to several of our favorite restaurants before things got really bad locally (because if Halloween and then thanksgiving). I felt much safer in the restaurants than going to Walmart. Bars are another story. It is impossible to be safe in bars.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 31, 2020 16:41:35 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Dec 31, 2020 16:31:52 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Ordinarily I don't agree with Mitch McConnell but I do in this case. 

I'm getting zero and I'm OK with that.  The first stimulus payment was meant to get deployed quickly without a lot of wrangling about who "deserved" it. Fine. This one should have been directed to needy people.  One possibility would be those who were unemployed for at least part of the last 6 months or so.  Even if they've since found new jobs it would help them catch up.  That would mean zero checks for most SS recipients and those in unaffected industries.  Last I looked, SS was showing up in my checking account every month like clockwork.  COVID did not affect it.

We could have done a lot more with the same money to help the unemployed and we had the tools to do it.

And yes, I agree with him that we're borrowing from our grandkids.

If Mitch had dealt with this when the House passed it's bill, there was time to do more.  It's his fault it has to be done in a hurry.

Do you realize there are lots of people living only on SS and they are barely making it?  Anything extra they get can help them with things they can't afford.


Do you realize my niece who is a nurse was furloughed when there were no elective surgeries.  Yes, she is back to work, but the unemployment didn't cover what she made.  

Take a drive through the poor and middle class parts of your town and see if you can find some empathy.  Too many wealthy people are unable to feel empathy.

People in social security and welfare weren’t harmed by Covid, though. So what is the intent of the Covid checks? If it’s to make up for lost wages then those not getting wages don’t need the checks. If it’s to stimulate the economy, then they should get it.

I don’t qualify but if I did I would donate it to local food banks. I know there is a real need

[Deleted]

Miss Tequila , I'm trying to decide if I have been financially harmed by Covid.  I could have been if I had contracted it.  There would be several hundreds, maybe a few thousand, of dollars that I would have had to spend.  I hve good insurance and savings, but not everyone on SS does.  Medicare doesn't cover everything, you know.

Prices on food have really increased.  Fewer sales, shortages leading to higher prices, and so on have made my grocery bill much higher than usual.  That's a result of covid.  If I was struggling to get by on just a SS check, I could feel that I have been affected.

You are right that I don't have to work since I receive a pension and SS, but maybe I wanted to earn extra money.  I drive a 2006 Corolla and am trying to figure out how I will be able to replace it.  I had planned on substituting and saving that income.  But I don't have that option now because schools are such a hotbed of covid-19.  So that's an unofficial loss of employment for me, an effect of covid.

I'm fine, but my point is that you can't make the blanket statement that people on SS weren't harmed by Covid.  Some have been.  And like everything else, it is too hard to determine which people have been harmed.  Maybe Mrs. o'Reilly was receiving $200 a month from her son to supplement her meager SS check, but now Sonny can't give that to her because he lost hours or his job.  Maybe Mrs. Smythe is having to pick up the slack for her just graduated daughter who can't make rent.  She needs the stimulus to help her daughter make it.

We just don't know people's situation.  So a blanket statement that people on SS haven't been affected isn't fair either.

As I said before, there are no easy answers.

[oped]

Dec 31, 2020 16:36:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 31, 2020 16:19:27 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I lost my post, but, I'm having troubles seeing how a couple grossing 250K can get their AGI down to 146K.

(Sure, there are special snowflake examples. My work allows me to contribute to both a 403b and a 457. So, DH and I have close to 60K in retirement space, if we could afford to use it. You can put 50-something away a year in for a SEP IRA or 401k, forgotten which).

At best, even will maxing retirement space, doing 5K of child care pre-tax, and fulling funding an HSA..that's only 52K off a gross of 250K... HDHP plans aren't expensive. My workplace one for a family was like $100 a month.

So, what am I missing with Mitch's example?

Otherwise, I think it's too hard to figure out need, TBH, in the middle class.

We are not considered well off, as a family of 6 and making less than 100K. We don't pay any federal taxes beyond FICA. But, we also have a decently sized taxable account. (that we also don't have to pay taxes on the dividends because Bush tax cuts and been poor in the eyes of the gov't).

So, what's the metric for deciding whether or not we deserve the stimulus?

ETA: How do you begin to take COL into account? I'm pretty sure San Fran, Boston, and NYC living on 250K gross would be very unappealing.

Hard? Yes, "too hard"? I don't think so if the focus is on negatively impacted by Covid instead of on "need". I think that being on unemployment is one good indicator. Another could be assessed with subtracting 2020 income from 2019, perhaps factoring in IRA/401 non-contributions. That second one is something a wiser brain might be able to explain why it isn't a good idea. I don't think just throwing up our hands on figuring something out is necessary.

2020? They are going by 2018 tax returns right now...

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2020 19:43:59 GMT -5 oped said:

Dec 31, 2020 16:36:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Hard? Yes, "too hard"? I don't think so if the focus is on negatively impacted by Covid instead of on "need". I think that being on unemployment is one good indicator. Another could be assessed with subtracting 2020 income from 2019, perhaps factoring in IRA/401 non-contributions. That second one is something a wiser brain might be able to explain why it isn't a good idea. I don't think just throwing up our hands on figuring something out is necessary.

2020? They are going by 2018 tax returns right now...

No, they are going by 2019 tax returns unless you still haven't filed 2019.

[Tiny]

Dec 31, 2020 14:46:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

In addition, I thought this phases out at 75k. Not rich in my book. Maybe well off. They could lower the threshold for phaseout if they wanted to help, but that would require caring.

That's for singles.  It's higher for marrieds (and they both get a check) .   And I think it's AGI not actual gross income.       

I had to listen to my married siblings  (AGI of 174K)   crow about the checks they will be getting...  and I didn't lie when they ask what I was gonna do with mine: nothing because I wasn't getting one.   I'm single and earn too much and don't have enough ways to shelter money to get a check.   

I'm pretty sure the majority  my relatives do not need these checks - they've all been employed the entire time and some even got raises and big bonuses.      
 

[billisonboard]

Dec 31, 2020 19:55:10 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

Dec 31, 2020 19:43:59 GMT -5 oped said:

2020? They are going by 2018 tax returns right now...

No, they are going by 2019 tax returns unless you still haven't filed 2019.

And a new program could use 2020 numbers. Push people to get returns filed sooner.