Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 7, 2020 20:35:06 GMT -5
. Who is ‘they’? Surely not everyone. And I have only had 2 incidents, in liberal western Washington, where I have been mocked or questioned by non mask wearers. I have heard numerous stories from friends that they have too. Even coughed on by an anti-masker? On the other side people we know are too prudent to accost a non wearer. They seem angry and hostile, even volatile is what I’ve heard. The guy at the golf course beer garden got this: “Mind your own business. I’m a 68 year old white male with Diabetes 2. My wife is an oncology nurse in a non social distancable work place treating Immune suppressed elderly patients. Ok? He apologized. www.aaha.org/publications/newstat/articles/2020-03/cdc-an-about-face-on-face-masks/March of 2020? That's your example? The closure to outside visitors to nursing homes and assisted facilities happened then in NJ. Its October. A whole heck of that has happened since then. March 2020, so expected it has this in the article- The site goes on to say “Facemasks may be in short supply and they should be saved for caregivers.” Which is the thinking that’s guided most of the US population in recent weeks as, indeed, the nation faced a mounting shortage of facemasks. March.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 7, 2020 20:38:10 GMT -5
The problem is they said in the beginning “masks won’t help”. So either they knew we needed them and lied or didn’t know. Neither gives people the warm and cozies. And it was much worse early on and people were out without masks. Now everyone is treated like outlaws if they are walking outside without a mask and our cases are very low (locally at least). It just sends a mixed message
Science is fluid. It learns and corrects as it goes along. This was a brand new disease they hadn't seen before, ergo the Coivd 19. In the beginning, nobody knew anything about it. It was thought that the virus lives mainly on surfaces, and they didn't know transmission was mostly aerosol. That's why everyone was going nuts, washing their groceries with bleach.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Oct 7, 2020 20:40:15 GMT -5
March of 2020? That's your example? The closure to outside visitors to nursing homes and assisted facilities happened then in NJ. Its October. A whole heck of that has happened since then. Dondub requested information on who stated in the beginning that masks won't help. Tina provided a link from March 2020, which was near the beginning. How do you expect her to answer this question? N.B., I don't agree with Tina on politics.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Oct 7, 2020 20:44:07 GMT -5
The advice about masks changed due to perspective. Wearing a cloth mask does not do a lot to protect the person wearing it. In that sense masks are not effective. I think it was a new idea to ask people to wear masks to avoid infecting others. And as far as I know, it was a surprise how many people could have Covid, be contagious and be asymptomatic. That is a new twist. People that are obviously sick aren't usually running around in public and are easily avoided. I have an easy time following the evolution of mask wearing guidelines
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Oct 7, 2020 20:47:55 GMT -5
The advice about masks changed due to perspective. Wearing a cloth mask does not do a lot to protect the person wearing it. In that sense masks are not effective. I think it was a new idea to ask people to wear masks to avoid infecting others. And as far as I know, it was a surprise how many people could have Covid, be contagious and be asymptomatic. That is a new twist. People that are obviously sick aren't usually running around in public and are easily avoided. I have an easy time following the evolution of mask wearing guidelines Correct, the significance of asymptotic spread was not well understood back then. In addition, the effectiveness of masks has far exceeded what was imagined. We were wrong. Wouldn’t it be nice if others could admit that as well. But let’s throw out the baby with the bath water. We were wrong once, so why should we listen now
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 7, 2020 20:47:59 GMT -5
Miss T do you follow worldometer at all for the virus? Most state graphs actually start in March. For fun though, I looked at the big board, i.e. the global graphs and compared to now, there wasn't much to see in January. www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 7, 2020 20:59:43 GMT -5
March of 2020? That's your example? The closure to outside visitors to nursing homes and assisted facilities happened then in NJ. Its October. A whole heck of that has happened since then. Dondub requested information on who stated in the beginning that masks won't help. Tina provided a link from March 2020, which was near the beginning. How do you expect her to answer this question? N.B., I don't agree with Tina on politics. OK I'm sorry I missed that, but d*, of course the guidance was way different at the very beginning of this. I live in NJ. Covid hell up close and personal started for me in March.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 7, 2020 21:01:14 GMT -5
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Oct 7, 2020 21:03:41 GMT -5
I agree we screwed up, but we corrected that in early April . ShoulD have been more transparent. But that is not a reason to question all advice. And if Trump has supported mask wearing, it would nor even been an issue
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 7, 2020 21:03:47 GMT -5
Dondub requested information on who stated in the beginning that masks won't help. Tina provided a link from March 2020, which was near the beginning. How do you expect her to answer this question? N.B., I don't agree with Tina on politics. OK I'm sorry I missed that, but d*, of course the guidance was way different at the very beginning of this. I live in NJ. Covid hell up close and personal started for me in March. By the end of March, PA was at 5k cases. I get it. And I’m someone that follows the guidance as it changes.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 7, 2020 21:06:04 GMT -5
I agree we screwed up, but we corrected that in early April . ShoulD have been more transparent. But that is not a reason to question all advice. And if Trump has supported mask wearing, it would nor even been an issue I’m definitely not disagreeing that trump should have reinforced wearing a mask. I don’t even think anyone screwed up. The virus was new and everyone had to learn by trial and error. That wasn’t my point in posting what I did.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Oct 7, 2020 21:11:12 GMT -5
I agree we screwed up, but we corrected that in early April . ShoulD have been more transparent. But that is not a reason to question all advice. And if Trump has supported mask wearing, it would nor even been an issue I’m definitely not disagreeing that trump should have reinforced wearing a mask. I don’t even think anyone screwed up. The virus was new and everyone had to learn by trial and error. That wasn’t my point in posting what I did. We need to own our mistakes. The message was conveyed poorly. The shortage was a huge problem, and people were misled. But they have been far more effective than was imagined, and the virus spreads differently than we thought.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 7, 2020 21:25:59 GMT -5
Things change. Studies take time. I was reading on the changes in approach in RL, so for me, I don't really see or remember flip flopping, but then as an essential worker in a medical facility I wore a mask from March on and kept abreast of the changing wisdom based on what was studied. In the beginning much of the warnings concerned how long Covid could live on various surfaces which got updated several times based on test conditions. Studies on masks evolved over time, and as a non doctor and non nurse I chose to educate myself on the differences between an N95 mask and surgical mask was. If this works, here's some snippets from along the timeline. The first is from May. The second from July. fee.org/articles/new-study-casts-more-doubt-on-effectiveness-of-masks-in-preventing-covid-19-spread/“Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS–CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients,” researchers concluded. (Note: N95 respirators, which CDC Guidelines advise for medical personnel only, were not part of the test. You can read more about the study at Medical News Today.)
Conducted by clinical researchers at several universities in Seoul, South Korea, the study involved four patients receiving medical care for COVID-19.
There is actually an abundance of research that suggests masks are not an effective method of preventing the spread of respiratory viruses, which is no doubt why the World Health Organization and some other countries do not recommend wearing masks.
www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-and-face-masks-to-wear-or-not-to-wear Since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, scientists and other experts have debated whether the general public should wear face masks and whether these masks should be medical grade masks or homemade face coverings.
From early April onwards, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in the United States recommended that people wear homemade face coverings in places where physical distancing is impossible.
Instead, this public health measure aims to stop people with a SARS-CoV-2 infection who are asymptomatic or presymptomatic from transmitting the virus. Experts refer to this as source control.
Rather than protecting the wearer, source control seeks to block the release of virus-laden droplets into the air that surrounds the person wearing the mask.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 7, 2020 21:33:20 GMT -5
You see it as conflicting advice though. I see it as an evolution of thought over time. The first link I posted just recently on this thread actually states that prior to this virus it was believed mask wearing was ineffective against respiratory viruses. Medical thought has had to change fairly quickly given this is a pandemic not just a new version of the flu or the cold.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 7, 2020 21:41:36 GMT -5
You see it as conflicting advice though. I see it as an evolution of thought over time. The first link I posted just recently on this thread actually states that prior to this virus it was believed mask wearing was ineffective against respiratory viruses. Medical thought has had to change fairly quickly given this is a pandemic not just a new version of the flu or the cold. I posted two separate links in two separate posts. One from the CDC recommending masks (I think that was early April) and one from WHO saying they weren’t necessary unless you were sick or caring for someone sick (something like that) from May. That is not an evolution. It was conflicting advice.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 7, 2020 21:51:47 GMT -5
You see it as conflicting advice though. I see it as an evolution of thought over time. The first link I posted just recently on this thread actually states that prior to this virus it was believed mask wearing was ineffective against respiratory viruses. Medical thought has had to change fairly quickly given this is a pandemic not just a new version of the flu or the cold. I posted two separate links in two separate posts. One from the CDC recommending masks (I think that was early April) and one from WHO saying they weren’t necessary unless you were sick or caring for someone sick (something like that) from May. That is not an evolution. It was conflicting advice. Its also two different organizations with two different jurisdictions. The CDC was dealing with the US outbreak which currently is the largest recorded of any nation. The WHO by definition is giving global guidance which includes countries both wealthy and not so much. Different audiences, different political constraints.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 7, 2020 23:46:38 GMT -5
. Who is ‘they’? Surely not everyone. And I have only had 2 incidents, in liberal western Washington, where I have been mocked or questioned by non mask wearers. I have heard numerous stories from friends that they have too. Even coughed on by an anti-masker? On the other side people we know are too prudent to accost a non wearer. They seem angry and hostile, even volatile is what I’ve heard. The guy at the golf course beer garden got this: “Mind your own business. I’m a 68 year old white male with Diabetes 2. My wife is an oncology nurse in a non social distancable work place treating Immune suppressed elderly patients. Ok? He apologized. www.aaha.org/publications/newstat/articles/2020-03/cdc-an-about-face-on-face-masks/they explained this later. they have been VERY consistent since April.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 8, 2020 8:40:03 GMT -5
This popped up on MSN so I'm sharing it here as an example of life in April for some people in NJ. Back then it was assumed around 90% of people who have Covid had a fever. We now know its more like 70% so all those temperature checks still let in the 30% who have the disease. Treatment was evolving and over-taxed so many died and did not get treated. Trump did not turn of the spigot of travelers from Italy, Spain, etc. so NJ/NY and others did not the advantage of those areas where Covid mostly came from China. www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/no-fever-no-test-the-terrifying-last-days-of-a-marine-at-a-nj-veterans-home-amid-covid-19/ar-BB19MBCA?ocid=msedgntpAs he sat terrified in his room at the Menlo Park veterans home where COVID-19 was claiming life after life, Howard Conyack called his daughter Tanya Montuore on April 3 and left a voicemail.
"I'm worried, honey," he said. "I'll talk to you if I can later on. I think I have one of the symptoms. I love you honey. If anything happens to me — I miss you so much and Bobby and the dog. Bye honey. I'll talk to you hopefully later." Conyack died two weeks later, after a precipitous decline from "respiratory failure" as indicated on his death certificate.But Howard Conyack was never counted among the 62 coronavirus deaths at Menlo Park — one of two state-run veterans homes that were racked by the virus.
Like so many at the home, Howard never received a COVID-19 test despite pleas from his family as his condition worsened. They were told bluntly and repeatedly by the staff: “No fever, no test,” even as Howard's blood oxygen levels plummeted.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 8, 2020 9:51:15 GMT -5
You see it as conflicting advice though. I see it as an evolution of thought over time. The first link I posted just recently on this thread actually states that prior to this virus it was believed mask wearing was ineffective against respiratory viruses. Medical thought has had to change fairly quickly given this is a pandemic not just a new version of the flu or the cold. I posted two separate links in two separate posts. One from the CDC recommending masks (I think that was early April) and one from WHO saying they weren’t necessary unless you were sick or caring for someone sick (something like that) from May. That is not an evolution. It was conflicting advice. Its conflicting advice IMO if the advice does not change or evolve. Science and solving many problems is more like sailing a boat in a race than driving a car in a straight line. With sailing I understand one is usually making course corrections sometimes over and over to keep on the track where you want to be. Sometimes its not possible to make a perfect path the so the best choice is to go forward and correct and as new information becomes available. Looking at any one point along the journey or fixating on points one doesn't like can blind one to the evolution of the path. Two boats are not going to tack identically to win the race, so why should two organizations then be in lockstep? I found this Fox video looking for a snippet on a server getting stiffed a tip yet again. This guy says it well from just before the 2 minute mark until about 2:20. Sometimes apparent flip flops are just tacking to the truth. The goal should be getting closer and closer to what is really true instead of staying hewed to some arbitrary position just because it confuses some people. I don't need black and white, so this process does not bother me. That's why I see it as evolution and not flip flopping. It *should* work this way. www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/pennsylvania-server-shocked-to-receive-note-about-mask-in-lieu-of-tip/vi-BB19P68B?ocid=msedgntp
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 8, 2020 10:05:17 GMT -5
I posted two separate links in two separate posts. One from the CDC recommending masks (I think that was early April) and one from WHO saying they weren’t necessary unless you were sick or caring for someone sick (something like that) from May. That is not an evolution. It was conflicting advice. Its conflicting advice IMO if the advice does not change or evolve. Science and solving many problems is more like sailing a boat in a race than driving a car in a straight line. With sailing I understand one is usually making course corrections sometimes over and over to keep on the track where you want to be. Sometimes its not possible to make a perfect path the so the best choice is to go forward and correct and as new information becomes available. Looking at any one point along the journey or fixating on points one doesn't like can blind one to the evolution of the path. Two boats are not going to tack identically to win the race, so why should two organizations then be in lockstep? I found this Fox video looking for a snippet on a server getting stiffed a tip yet again. This guy says it well from just before the 2 minute mark until about 2:20. Sometimes apparent flip flops are just tacking to the truth. The goal should be getting closer and closer to what is really true instead of staying hewed to some arbitrary position just because it confuses some people. I don't need black and white, so this process does not bother me. That's why I see it as evolution and not flip flopping. It *should* work this way. www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/pennsylvania-server-shocked-to-receive-note-about-mask-in-lieu-of-tip/vi-BB19P68B?ocid=msedgntpCool. I was only agreeing with doc on why people are losing confidence. I didn’t mean for this to become a debate as to whether it is an evolution or conflicting advice. I follow the advice given so I don’t care one way or the other.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 12, 2020 10:14:21 GMT -5
You see it as conflicting advice though. I see it as an evolution of thought over time. The first link I posted just recently on this thread actually states that prior to this virus it was believed mask wearing was ineffective against respiratory viruses. Medical thought has had to change fairly quickly given this is a pandemic not just a new version of the flu or the cold. I posted two separate links in two separate posts. One from the CDC recommending masks (I think that was early April) and one from WHO saying they weren’t necessary unless you were sick or caring for someone sick (something like that) from May. That is not an evolution. It was conflicting advice. May was 100 years ago.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 14, 2020 15:57:30 GMT -5
Add Barron Trump to the covid list.
The gift that keeps giving.....
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anciana
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Post by anciana on Oct 14, 2020 16:24:05 GMT -5
Still tracking? Found this ( here) that was posted October 13th:
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 14, 2020 16:54:04 GMT -5
Still tracking? Found this ( here) that was posted October 13th: I saw that article. I also read that the housekeeping staff had all these requirements including yellow isolation gowns and face shields but the staff higher up the food chain wasn't even required to wear masks. I guess Melania wanted to make sure they caught rich people Covid?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2020 13:00:52 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 15, 2020 13:39:09 GMT -5
If the Father of our Country and his men didn't wear a mask to capture airports, why should I wear one?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2020 15:37:39 GMT -5
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