Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 13, 2011 17:42:21 GMT -5
I wouldn't totally shoot down him asking for a raise. I'm a firm believer in looking out for yourself in the labor market. I don't care how nice your boss treats you everyday, there is some part of him that would be fucking thrilled if you agreed to work for slave wages. It's a two sided thing. You have to stick up for yourself and be aggressive about negotiating your compensation because the company will do the same for themselves. You want to get paid absolute top dollar for your experience and position, and they want a certain job done at the lowest possible price. If you let them dictate the conversation and negotiation all the time you'll always be getting the low end of the range.
All that said, if you stay in the same position with the same general responsibilities for long periods of time, your pay probably will and should stall. Nobody needs decades of experience to do a certain job. A year or a few years of experience might be valuable, beyond that you're still just as productive as you were previously. You still do the same quality of work. Why should your boss pay more for you to do the exact same thing you've been doing?
I think it's part of the reason teacher pay gets sticky. A teacher with five years of experience is more valuable than a teacher with none, but a teacher with twenty five years of experience is probably exactly the same as the one with five. Beyond a certain experience level you need to be moving up and taking on more or different work to keep the pay raises coming in. But I digress...
It sounds like the OP's hubby hasn't had a raise since he started this job four years ago. They didn't know the quality of the work he would do when hired, and this is an entry level position, which practically guarantees they didn't offer as much for the position as they could have. There should be some wiggle room there to work in a raise. I'd leave any hint of an ultimatum out of it though. He should go in and tell them he's been doing high quality work, has taken on any extra responsibilities they've offered him, everyone is exceptionally happy with his work, and he'd like to talk about increasing his compensation. No need to have even the hint of a threat to it. If they agree that his performance has been above the norm they can start talking bigger numbers.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 13, 2011 17:53:17 GMT -5
He should go in and tell them he's been doing high quality work, has taken on any extra responsibilities they've offered him, everyone is exceptionally happy with his work, and he'd like to talk about increasing his compensation. No need to have even the hint of a threat to it. If they agree that his performance has been above the norm they can start talking bigger numbers.
Dark.....there are a ton of problems with your suggestion, the least of which he works at a university that's got a hiring freeze on.
Going into your supervisor does not do a damn thing. In a university, to get a large raise like this you need to get your job reclassified. He was hired in at position X, which was what he qualified for when he started out. Since then, he's grown and gotten additional education and has grown out of the job. But in this case, they would have to establish a new position for him and eliminate the old position. Since there's a hiring freeze going on, this isn't going to happen.
I went through this myself a little about 4 years ago and a year later, our hiring freeze hit. But the process is not merely going to HR and saying we need more money for this position. There are reams of paperwork that someone needs to fill out to justify a new position, and IME the process can take up to a year (even if you have someone with clout behind it - my direct boss is a dean and has brought in millions of $$). But this is all a moot point as the university is not establishing any new positions for staff due to the hiring freeze.
The best thing that the OP can do is to get himself into another department. There is some latitude in hiring between departments in a university and it's the most likely way of getting a raise where there's a hiring freeze going on.
Dealing with universities vs dealing with corporations is a whole 'nuther ball of wax.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 13, 2011 18:07:18 GMT -5
I defer to your experience since I've never worked in academia. I still say if he's a good IT guy he needs to get out of the library and go to work in the private sector anyway. The money will be better, but even if it isn't, he'll at least have some path for advancement.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 13, 2011 18:26:16 GMT -5
The money will be better, but even if it isn't, he'll at least have some path for advancement.
Here's the deal. The OP's DH has likely got some very good benefits and at a university, it's not always about the money.
For instance, I get 10% of my salary put into my retirement. I've gotten my doctorate on my employer's dime. If I wait things out another 10 years to retirement, my Medigap insurance is gong to be covered for both me and my spouse.
I get free software and discounts on everything from internet to cable to rent. I get discounted gym memberships and very decent health insurance. There are a ton of other perks out there, that I am forgetting.
The OP's going to have to factor these benefits into whatever financial equation that he comes up with and many times as it's not always about the money, that's why a lateral move to IT would be more logical. He'll get the IT experience at a higher salary but won't be losing the benefits he's accrued.
I've been employed in academia for 25 years (including some really rough times in the 1980s/90s) and I don't EVER remember a hiring freeze or stagnant wages going on so long.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 13, 2011 18:38:47 GMT -5
I think this scenario also points to a larger truth for all workers. Be careful how much you voluntarily take on beyond your job responsibilities...once you're "the guy who does XYZ", it can be very hard to get "Z" taken off of your responsibilities even if it doesn't technically fit your job description.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 19:30:28 GMT -5
The money will be better, but even if it isn't, he'll at least have some path for advancement. Here's the deal. The OP's DH has likely got some very good benefits and at a university, it's not always about the money. For instance, I get 10% of my salary put into my retirement. I've gotten my doctorate on my employer's dime. If I wait things out another 10 years to retirement, my Medigap insurance is gong to be covered for both me and my spouse. I get free software and discounts on everything from internet to cable to rent. I get discounted gym memberships and very decent health insurance. There are a ton of other perks out there, that I am forgetting. The OP's going to have to factor these benefits into whatever financial equation that he comes up with and many times as it's not always about the money, that's why a lateral move to IT would be more logical. He'll get the IT experience at a higher salary but won't be losing the benefits he's accrued. I've been employed in academia for 25 years (including some really rough times in the 1980s/90s) and I don't EVER remember a hiring freeze or stagnant wages going on so long. you're absolutely right about the benefits. DH got his MLIS tuition-free. We also can't beat $3 prescriptions. We also got a great discount on our cell phone plan and our auto insurance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 19:31:24 GMT -5
hoops, your last point is definitely true.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 13, 2011 19:33:23 GMT -5
you're absolutely right about the benefits. DH got his MLIS tuition-free. We also can't beat $3 prescriptions. We also got a great discount on our cell phone plan and our auto insurance. Right, but if the trade off is a salary level that's half what he'd get in the private sector, he might be better off paying a $10-15 copay on prescriptions, and a $50 cell plan.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Apr 14, 2011 8:19:12 GMT -5
I've been employed in academia for 25 years (including some really rough times in the 1980s/90s) and I don't EVER remember a hiring freeze or stagnant wages going on so long.I also don't ever remember public school teacher/staff layoffs on such a large scale across the country.
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Post by ziyia on Apr 14, 2011 11:16:59 GMT -5
Whatever your DH decides to do, I will second the recommendation of leaving any ultimatum out of it, unless your DH is prepared to leave if they say no. If you say "give me more money or else", you need to be prepared to hear "fine, walk".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 11:22:40 GMT -5
Dealing with universities vs dealing with corporations is a whole 'nuther ball of wax. THIS!!!!!! and I don't think DH is giving an ultimatum. He enjoys his work, but as Mich said, the position has greatly evolved while he's been in it. To the point where it's barely similar to the original job description. Some people have even suggested that he get a BB so he can answer work emails from home! That's not something that he should be doing. And I don't think they're going to fire him. If they did, they'd have to hire someone else who'd probably just do the basics of the job title.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 14, 2011 11:26:04 GMT -5
"If they did, they'd have to hire someone else who'd probably just do the basics of the job title. "
Do you have a job? You seem somewhat out of touch with this idea that most people would just do the basics of their job title. Most people end up doing far more than their job title lists. Why would they assume that if they hired someone else that person would do any less than your DH does? People who just do the basics of the job title quickly find themselves without any title at all in many cases.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 14, 2011 11:34:06 GMT -5
And I don't think they're going to fire him. If they did, they'd have to hire someone else who'd probably just do the basics of the job titleDon't be so sure. When I first started my job back at Creighton it required a HS diploma, no experience was for basic lab duties. When he was relocating and I wasn't going with him the job had evolved to needing a bachelor's (which is what I have) and had a HUGE list of duties attached to it. Co-workers dared me to apply to see if I was still qualified to do my job. I said I don't think my boss would find the joke very funny. At any rate they could tell your husband to go ahead and walk and then relist the job with all the duties he does and probaly find SOMEONE who would do it all and be grateful for the salary.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Apr 14, 2011 12:02:21 GMT -5
"He enjoys his work, but as Mich said, the position has greatly evolved while he's been in it."
Pulling back a bit, is this really the job that your DH would plan on staying in? If not, what is he doing to find "the" job that he does want to be in? He did his MLIS. What is he doing to leverage that? Perhaps the academic world is not the best place to seek competitive compensation?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 12:35:16 GMT -5
"If they did, they'd have to hire someone else who'd probably just do the basics of the job title. " Do you have a job? You seem somewhat out of touch with this idea that most people would just do the basics of their job title. Yes, I do have a job, and yes I do more than my job title. But it's all job-related. How is teaching library instruction classes related to fixing computers? I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to get at here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 12:38:46 GMT -5
At any rate they could tell your husband to go ahead and walk and then relist the job with all the duties he does and probaly find SOMEONE who would do it all and be grateful for the salary.
yeah, that could happen. And we'd make the necessary sacrifices if it did. His boss is just as upset at the wage freeze as DH, so I don't think it would come to that. But it's totally possible.
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Post by lulubean on Apr 14, 2011 12:53:04 GMT -5
I think everyone that values their job goes above and beyond their "core responsibilites" Dh just wrote a program for a heart health day, he spent a lot of outside time on it and it isn't in his job description. In this day and age if you are just doing your "core responsibilities" you are not getting the attention of the higher ups.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 14, 2011 13:00:35 GMT -5
"If they did, they'd have to hire someone else who'd probably just do the basics of the job title. " Do you have a job? You seem somewhat out of touch with this idea that most people would just do the basics of their job title. Yes, I do have a job, and yes I do more than my job title. But it's all job-related. How is teaching library instruction classes related to fixing computers? I don't think you really understand what I'm trying to get at here. How does teaching people how to use new computer software relate to my non-IT job in financial services? It doesn't, but I do it because I can and because I want to make myself valuable. Same goes for about 80-90% of the people in my department who do things that aren't related to their core responsibilities. His teaching is related in that he works in a library. It's about as related as me teaching coworkers IT issues simply because we all use computers. I understand exactly what you're saying. I just think you massively underestimate how much DH is the rule rather than the exception in today's jobs.
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Post by lulubean on Apr 14, 2011 13:06:00 GMT -5
I think everyone that values their job goes above and beyond their "core responsibilites" Dh just wrote a program for a heart health day, he spent a lot of outside time on it and it isn't in his job description. In this day and age if you are just doing your "core responsibilities" you are not getting the attention of the higher ups.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 14, 2011 13:08:01 GMT -5
I think that it essentially boils down to is the old "80% of people report themselves as above average drivers" theory.
If you ask people whether their spouse is below average, average, or above average at their jobs, I think you would get the same amazingly high proportion of respondents indicating that their spouse/partner is above average at their job...even when the number of above average points to a heavy bias for those above average.
Everyone thinks they're overworked, underpaid, and doing more than their job really entails. Almost everyone! It can be a dangerous attitude when acted upon.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 14:41:47 GMT -5
Her husband just got his MLIS. For those who don't know, a MLIS is a master's degree in library and information services (or studies depending on the institution).
So teaching library instruction classes is related to his (new) degree even if it is not in his original job description. She said he wanted to be an academic librarian so teaching those classes would be a way to get his foot in that door. The classes may or may not have been specifically related to computers as in "fixing them." They may have been more related to how to do computer-based research effectively.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 14:56:41 GMT -5
susana, I think that's why he doesn't mind doing the classes. It will be a good thing on his resume. Now if only these old librarians would die/retire.... Hoops, I understand what you're saying - I guess I was seeing it differently because DH almost never complained about being overworked at any job (no matter how crappy) in the almost 10 years I've known him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 18:21:14 GMT -5
DH's boss forwarded him an email from the university librarian (kind of like the president of the school library system) saying that wages will continue to be frozen; however the "pay for performance" evaluations are still useful as a way to thank employees for their hard work. Um, isn't a raise or some other perk the way to thank employees?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 19, 2011 20:20:34 GMT -5
. Um, isn't a raise or some other perk the way to thank employees? Not in these times at a public institution. At our university, our "thanks" is our job. I seriously wouldn't count on any raises in the near future. At our university, raises are going to be tied to CPI. Maybe your husband can negotiate some comp time? Work at home? Compressed work week? Maybe your husband should be looking in the private sector...
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share88
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Post by share88 on Apr 20, 2011 5:17:57 GMT -5
I most definitely do things that are not related in any way to my job title. That's why I am still employed when they have let other people go. The less staff you have the more you want the existing staff to be able to cover.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 20, 2011 7:15:44 GMT -5
Um, isn't a raise or some other perk the way to thank employees?
You cannot give raises when there is a salary freeze on. It does not matter about your evaluation, salaries are frozen where they are and everyone's hands are tied. When there is no money for raises, NO ONE gets them. I guarantee you, your husband is not the only person at the university who is doing far more than his job description and doing a superlative job at it.
The ONLY way of getting an increase in salary in this situation is to change jobs to another with a higher base salary within the instititution or to look outside.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 20, 2011 7:30:59 GMT -5
Can he freelance a bit on the side for extra cash?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 7:46:12 GMT -5
I'm late to this party, but in PA the governor is trying to cut the state higher ed funding by 50%.... I'm guessing we aren't the only state doing so?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 20, 2011 8:00:20 GMT -5
Um, isn't a raise or some other perk the way to thank employees?
I haven't even recieved a cost of living raise. Salaries are frozen at this university as well and like Mich said NO ONE is getting a raise.
My bosses have the money, we work on grant money and we've talked about how they do eventually plan on raising my pay.
But the rules are the rules and they cannot raise my pay till the wage freeze is lifted by the university.
It makes sense because god knows the can of worms that would be opened if I was dumb enough to brag to a fellow uni employee that I got a raise.
It's across the board for everyone from my bosses on down.
Sucks, but that's what it is.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 20, 2011 8:20:33 GMT -5
DH works teaching as an adjunct. They have a wage freeze too. Not as big a deal to him as clearly it is part time but his salary must have slipped below some benchmark that they are not contractually allowed to go below. Because now he gets included in his salary and benefits a free lunch. It is just a sandwich, chips and a cup of coffee. And he doesn't ever get there early enough to try it but it literally lists the lunch on his pay sheet breakdown.
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