happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 12, 2019 8:19:38 GMT -5
There is less public concern when people assume it's criminals shooting each other. I remember plenty of indignation about inner city people shot in random drive by shootings, especially when it was children accidentally killed, but people tend to get less up in arms when they think it's one criminal shooting another criminal, whatever the color.
Mass shootings, especially involving school kids, is a total different type of attack - and gauging by the outrage against the El Paso shooting, where most of the victims are non whites, and the Charleston church shooting, which was all black folks, it doesn't appear that the public is only upset when white people get shot in mass shootings.
Please tell me what was done after the Charleston church shootin or what has been done since then? A few mentions in the news for a few days and everyone went back to their business. Tell me why “white” man with mental illness always seems to be captured alive and in great shape after killing many yet a black man can barely escape a traffic ticket alive?
I was arguing the other poster's opinion that no one cares about shooting victims unless they are white. We get outraged about innocent people getting gunned down, regardless of color, and regardless of whether they are victims of drive by shootings or mass shootings in public places.
The problem is that's all that happens - a few days of outrage, the faces of the victims paraded in the news media. Then we wait on the next one.
Your point about white men with mental illness getting captured alive - that's not always true. Some kill themselves and some do get shot by the cops (which I think was their point to begin with). But you are 100% correct that a black man can get killed for much, much less. There was a white woman having a MH issue here several years back. She had a high speed car chase and then, when cornered, got out of her car and started waving a gun around. Nothing happened to her - they just disarmed her and took her for a MH check. What would be the chances a black man or woman waving a gun around after a high speed chase would just walk away from it? Infinitely small, and a whole bunch of people would excuse the cops shooting them because 'you can't just go on a high speed chase and then wave a gun around a bunch of cops.' True - unless you're white.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 12, 2019 10:44:52 GMT -5
Yes because you are NOT black, you dismissed all the shit that the KKK has done. Yes they are so docile, nothing compared to the current mass shooting. In respect to all those that were burned in their homes/churches, beaten to death with no justice, hanged on trees and dragged behind horses or cars throughout the town with the police doing nothing or actually participating, raped, abused with no recourse or threat of being killed or actually getting killed for reporting it : GO FUCK YOURSELF! Because we all know: unless it start affecting the white population, it does not matter. Yes the KKK killed lots of people for silly reasons. I’m not here to defend those assholes.
But having people show up at a store or school or park and just shoot 20+ people at random every couple of years—That’s a new thing. White supremacy is not. You do make one good point. Why are we so concerned that several dozen people get killed in one spot when equal numbers of people get killed every weekend in senseless gun violence? Is it because a disproportionate share of those crime victims are low income people of color? Yeah, gathering with the family under the "old oak tree" for a lynching definitely is "less offensive" than the random gunviolence of today . Have you ever thought how much "more effective" the KKK would have been if they had had access to assault riffles?
Don't think for one second that the mass shootings are new to today because people have changed. They happen now because the tools to "shine" are freely available to those assholes. ">
And for the record: the Gilroy killer went to Nevada to get his weapon - which he was not able to buy in California. And that is why we need federal laws to limit access to this type of weapons and make possesion of one a fedral crime with a mandatory jail sentence attached to it (after a "grace" period during which these weapons can be surrendered without penalties).
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 12, 2019 11:45:04 GMT -5
Yes the KKK killed lots of people for silly reasons. I’m not here to defend those assholes.
But having people show up at a store or school or park and just shoot 20+ people at random every couple of years—That’s a new thing. White supremacy is not. You do make one good point. Why are we so concerned that several dozen people get killed in one spot when equal numbers of people get killed every weekend in senseless gun violence? Is it because a disproportionate share of those crime victims are low income people of color? Yeah, gathering with the family under the "old oak tree" for a lynching definitely is "less offensive" than the random gunviolence of today . Have you ever thought how much "more effective" the KKK would have been if they had had access to assault riffles?
Don't think for one second that the mass shootings are new to today because people have changed. They happen now because the tools to "shine" are freely available to those assholes. ">
And for the record: the Gilroy killer went to Nevada to get his weapon - which he was not able to buy in California. And that is why we need federal laws to limit access to this type of weapons and make possesion of one a fedral crime with a mandatory jail sentence attached to it (after a "grace" period during which these weapons can be surrendered without penalties).
What was so disturbing about lynchings in the past was how the whole town (kids included) would turn out to watch. They'd have picnics and get their photo made with the corpse, even take some 'souvenirs' of a finger or hair. More like a state fair rather than a murder. I always assumed a lynching was done secretly, shamefully, at night, and the whole town would be embarrassed - nope. It was a party.
I can't even get my head around the mindset of people at that time.
The most disturbing part is some of this crazy shit continued on into my lifetime - I'm listening to a podcast about the civil rights activists around Selma Alabama around 1965, and the posse of 300 white guys the sheriff deputized to brutalize the blacks and civil rights workers. I was a toddler at the time. The white people of Selma lived on the planet the same time as me.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 12, 2019 11:58:39 GMT -5
I've been smoking for close to half a century.This explains a lot What does it explain exactly? Please be specific. During that time, I managed to get 2 degrees and worked at my last job for 30 years, with multiple commendations. So, what does it explain? Maybe pot turns people into Grammar Nazis? Is that your point?
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Aug 12, 2019 12:03:22 GMT -5
Yeah, gathering with the family under the "old oak tree" for a lynching definitely is "less offensive" than the random gunviolence of today . Have you ever thought how much "more effective" the KKK would have been if they had had access to assault riffles?
Don't think for one second that the mass shootings are new to today because people have changed. They happen now because the tools to "shine" are freely available to those assholes. ">
And for the record: the Gilroy killer went to Nevada to get his weapon - which he was not able to buy in California. And that is why we need federal laws to limit access to this type of weapons and make possesion of one a fedral crime with a mandatory jail sentence attached to it (after a "grace" period during which these weapons can be surrendered without penalties).
What was so disturbing about lynchings in the past was how the whole town (kids included) would turn out to watch. They'd have picnics and get their photo made with the corpse, even take some 'souvenirs' of a finger or hair. More like a state fair rather than a murder. I always assumed a lynching was done secretly, shamefully, at night, and the whole town would be embarrassed - nope. It was a party.
I can't even get my head around the mindset of people at that time.
The most disturbing part is some of this crazy shit continued on into my lifetime - I'm listening to a podcast about the civil rights activists around Selma Alabama around 1965, and the posse of 300 white guys the sheriff deputized to brutalize the blacks and civil rights workers. I was a toddler at the time. The white people of Selma lived on the planet the same time as me.
White Lies by NPR?? - It was eye opening to me where the people don't want to talk about it more than 50 years later .
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 12, 2019 12:36:32 GMT -5
Neo-Nazis are the modern KKK.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 12, 2019 12:47:51 GMT -5
I've been smoking for close to half a century.This explains a lot What does it explain exactly? Please be specific. During that time, I managed to get 2 degrees and worked at my last job for 30 years, with multiple commendations. So, what does it explain? Maybe pot turns people into Grammar Nazis? Is that your point? It makes you fluent in 3 languages and care about the environment. Shameful.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 12, 2019 12:55:48 GMT -5
Humans have been killing people for next to nothing for eons. Did all those that killed witches have a mental illness? Those that lynched black people? Those that do honor killings? Those that kill their wife/gf for trying to leave them or some percieved offence? I'm not saying mental illness is never involved, but I don't think it's the majority nor has it been proven it is. I think some people want to believe mental illness is the cause because it's so much easier to say they're "crazy" vs trying to figure out the actual cause and effect or not wanting to accept all parts of human nature. But even that doesn't explain it all as the US is by far and away the leader in these instances and we should look to what's different in our country and then figure out which of the differences is(are) the cause(s). I think I have a hard time wrapping my head around how anyone can just start shooting people. Are you equally baffled by who shoot their wife/gf that's trying to leave them? Serious question, I have a point but it would be from slightly different angles based on your answer.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 12, 2019 13:03:48 GMT -5
Humans have been killing people for next to nothing for eons. Did all those that killed witches have a mental illness? Those that lynched black people? Those that do honor killings? Those that kill their wife/gf for trying to leave them or some percieved offence? I'm not saying mental illness is never involved, but I don't think it's the majority nor has it been proven it is. I think some people want to believe mental illness is the cause because it's so much easier to say they're "crazy" vs trying to figure out the actual cause and effect or not wanting to accept all parts of human nature. But even that doesn't explain it all as the US is by far and away the leader in these instances and we should look to what's different in our country and then figure out which of the differences is(are) the cause(s). [ You also need to look at different times and places within this country. For example, in the 1930s, people were much more poor than they are now, And there wasn’t much in the way of gun control. But the inner cities didn’t have anywhere near the level of violence they do now and we didn’t have mass shootings either. So the blame inner-city violence on guns and poverty and blame mass shootings on racism sexism doesn’t really pass muster. 1) Actually, the wage differentials (ie income inequality) are much worse now. So while you say they were poorer, a lot of that is optics seen through technology differences. Today the poor are much poorer compared to the rich than they were years ago - which that is often the cause of a lot of strife. 2) From googling, if you took the price of a tommy gun in 2018 $ it was over $3,000. Also from google, an AR15 is well under $1000. So if we go with your assumption that people were even poorer back in the 1930s - those poor people could not afford to purchase a gun that could do massive damage. Meanwhile, today someone can purchase a gun that can do mass amount of casualties for less than the current iPhone. These high-casualty guns are unbelievably more accessible to more people now than they ever were -- and that's without looking into whether there are more types and types with higher kill rates now than back then OR looking into the points that I believe guns are manufactured at a higher quality now and are less likely to malfunction ie not shoot.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 12, 2019 16:01:03 GMT -5
I think I have a hard time wrapping my head around how anyone can just start shooting people. Are you equally baffled by who shoot their wife/gf that's trying to leave them? Serious question, I have a point but it would be from slightly different angles based on your answer. I’m not sure why you went to domestic violence. I’m actually most baffled how someone can shoot their own child.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 12, 2019 16:33:46 GMT -5
Are you equally baffled by who shoot their wife/gf that's trying to leave them? Serious question, I have a point but it would be from slightly different angles based on your answer. I’m not sure why you went to domestic violence. I’m actually most baffled how someone can shoot their own child. Neither of those answered my question. I was trying to determine if your bafflement only related to large shootings or all shootings. I personally don't think I could ever do what they did or get to that point, but I'm not baffled at it. As others have mentioned part of it is hate, and another part is control, and other part anger, and I'm sure other parts too. Drawing in domestic violence actually is part and parcel to some mass shootings, or at least parallel. The dude in California a while back - went up shooting because of his lack of relationships and hatred of women. The dude in Ohio, while we don't know his full motives he definitely had hatred and violence against women's box checked. Given his history and what was uncovered, you can't say the shooter of Pulse didn't have domestic violence tendencies either. I'm willing to bet there's more, but like I said earlier I don't keep a dossier and I certainly make no point to remember their names to google. My point was whether or not you can see how hatred and anger and need for control (etc) can drive someone to murdering one person - it's really not a huge mental leap to murdering more, unfortunately. If you truly can't see how someone gets to that point, to that wholly unjustified and awful and sickening point, then I think mass shootings not related to mental illness would be equally un-seeable.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 12, 2019 19:57:26 GMT -5
I’m not sure why you went to domestic violence. I’m actually most baffled how someone can shoot their own child. Neither of those answered my question. I was trying to determine if your bafflement only related to large shootings or all shootings. I personally don't think I could ever do what they did or get to that point, but I'm not baffled at it. As others have mentioned part of it is hate, and another part is control, and other part anger, and I'm sure other parts too. Drawing in domestic violence actually is part and parcel to some mass shootings, or at least parallel. The dude in California a while back - went up shooting because of his lack of relationships and hatred of women. The dude in Ohio, while we don't know his full motives he definitely had hatred and violence against women's box checked. Given his history and what was uncovered, you can't say the shooter of Pulse didn't have domestic violence tendencies either. I'm willing to bet there's more, but like I said earlier I don't keep a dossier and I certainly make no point to remember their names to google. My point was whether or not you can see how hatred and anger and need for control (etc) can drive someone to murdering one person - it's really not a huge mental leap to murdering more, unfortunately. If you truly can't see how someone gets to that point, to that wholly unjustified and awful and sickening point, then I think mass shootings not related to mental illness would be equally un-seeable. Outside of murdering your own child, im most baffled by random mass shootings. In the case of domestic violence, I do not understand any of it. I do not understand beating someone you “love”. I also don’t understand staying with someone that beats you. But in a volatile relationship like that, I can’t say I’m baffled that it turned deadly. There is a history of violence and a known target. While I will never understand wanting to kill anyone, it is harder me to understand a desire to just kill anyone. No target of emotions, no bad history, just a thirst to kill as many people as you can.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Aug 12, 2019 20:16:18 GMT -5
Who’s been shooting their own kids?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 12, 2019 20:36:28 GMT -5
Listening to all the talk about gun control after the horror of the mass killings last weekend, I have yet to hear any politician talk about drug control. How many of these losers/killers are drug users? How many of the politicians that are avoiding any mention of drugs are users themselves? How many copy-cat people have their brains fried on drugs? How many states have passed the recreational pot bill? How many people think rec pot is OK? and basically harmless? My cousin in Colorado does ......... and she is a retired nurse. These killings are senseless ......... But all they can scream about is gun control. What about controlling the fried brains that pull the trigger. This makes my heart cry ......... a person should be able to consume whatever drug he or she wishes.
what he or she DOES while on drugs is a matter of law, just like all other things we DO.
there is a distinction which most conservatives don't ever quite grasp, unless we are talking about guns.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 13, 2019 7:11:05 GMT -5
What was so disturbing about lynchings in the past was how the whole town (kids included) would turn out to watch. They'd have picnics and get their photo made with the corpse, even take some 'souvenirs' of a finger or hair. More like a state fair rather than a murder. I always assumed a lynching was done secretly, shamefully, at night, and the whole town would be embarrassed - nope. It was a party.
I can't even get my head around the mindset of people at that time.
The most disturbing part is some of this crazy shit continued on into my lifetime - I'm listening to a podcast about the civil rights activists around Selma Alabama around 1965, and the posse of 300 white guys the sheriff deputized to brutalize the blacks and civil rights workers. I was a toddler at the time. The white people of Selma lived on the planet the same time as me.
White Lies by NPR?? - It was eye opening to me where the people don't want to talk about it more than 50 years later . Yes, White Lies. An excellent podcast.
What was eye opening to me was how the whites created their own narrative about who killed the black people. In that case, where a white unitarian minister, a civil rights worker was killed by four angry white guys, the town claimed that the real murderers were the black civil rights workers who needed a 'white martyr' for their cause. In the case of the little girls killed in the church bombings - it was black people who bombed that church to stir up trouble. In the case of the three white civil rights workers who disappeared - they all suddenly moved to Cuba.
The worst part was that some of the current day Selma white are still insisting that it was black people who killed that Unitarian minister. To this day they have stuck to that face saving myth, rather than admit the truth. Sad.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 13, 2019 7:22:54 GMT -5
Who’s been shooting their own kids? Are you implying that parents never shoot their own children? I live in a sleepy little town that has had only one murder in the last 16 years....it was a father that shot his 3 year old little girl for revenge on his soon-to-be ex-wife. And the murder free time line might be a lot longer but the data I look at only went back to 2003. We read stories all the time about parents murdering their children, some by gun.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 13, 2019 9:04:19 GMT -5
Yes the KKK killed lots of people for silly reasons. I’m not here to defend those assholes.
But having people show up at a store or school or park and just shoot 20+ people at random every couple of years—That’s a new thing. White supremacy is not. You do make one good point. Why are we so concerned that several dozen people get killed in one spot when equal numbers of people get killed every weekend in senseless gun violence? Is it because a disproportionate share of those crime victims are low income people of color? Yeah, gathering with the family under the "old oak tree" for a lynching definitely is "less offensive" than the random gunviolence of today . Have you ever thought how much "more effective" the KKK would have been if they had had access to assault riffles?
Don't think for one second that the mass shootings are new to today because people have changed. They happen now because the tools to "shine" are freely available to those assholes. ">
And for the record: the Gilroy killer went to Nevada to get his weapon - which he was not able to buy in California. And that is why we need federal laws to limit access to this type of weapons and make possesion of one a fedral crime with a mandatory jail sentence attached to it (after a "grace" period during which these weapons can be surrendered without penalties).
He lived in Nevada.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 13, 2019 9:10:13 GMT -5
Neo-Nazis are the modern KKK. Do Neo Nazis, are kick down doors dragging people out in the middle of the night lynching them?? Neo Nazis are small town sheriffs that use their badges to rape, murder, people??
Do you see cross burning in peoples yards every night??
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Aug 13, 2019 10:19:09 GMT -5
I managed to get 2 degrees
Congratulations
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Aug 13, 2019 10:48:19 GMT -5
Who’s been shooting their own kids? Are you implying that parents never shoot their own children? I live in a sleepy little town that has had only one murder in the last 16 years....it was a father that shot his 3 year old little girl for revenge on his soon-to-be ex-wife. And the murder free time line might be a lot longer but the data I look at only went back to 2003. We read stories all the time about parents murdering their children, some by gun. No.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 13, 2019 10:54:03 GMT -5
I managed to get 2 degreesCongratulations So, you're not going to answer. What does it explain? "That explains a lot"
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 13, 2019 14:45:59 GMT -5
Are you equally baffled by who shoot their wife/gf that's trying to leave them? Serious question, I have a point but it would be from slightly different angles based on your answer. I’m not sure why you went to domestic violence. I’m actually most baffled how someone can shoot their own child. Definition of Domestic Violence: Victims
Definitions of domestic violence recognize that victims can include anyone, regardless of socioeconomic background, education level, race, age, sexual orientation, religion, or gender. Domestic violence was formerly referred to as wife abuse. However, this term was abandoned when the definition of domestic violence was changed to reflect that wives are not the only ones who can fall victim to domestic violence. The definition of domestic violence now recognizes that victims can be:
Spouses Sexual/Dating/Intimate partners Family members Children Cohabitants
family.findlaw.com/domestic-violence/what-is-domestic-violence.html
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 13, 2019 16:02:08 GMT -5
I managed to get 2 degreesCongratulations So, you're not going to answer. What does it explain? "That explains a lot"I'll second that question. What, exactly, does it explain?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 13, 2019 16:22:53 GMT -5
So, you're not going to answer. What does it explain? "That explains a lot"I'll second that question. What, exactly, does it explain? it explains how drug use and motivation/achievement have little or nothing to do with each other.
US Grant was a falling down drunk, and a remarkable general. WS Burroughs was a heroin addict and perhaps the best American novelist of our generation. Coleridge was perhaps the best poet of his generation, and a drug user. most of the greatest musicians you can think of were drug users. quite a few of the best orators. many people in theatre, and politics. generals, businessmen, doctors- you name it.
some people handle their habits well, others don't.
THAT is how we should be judged. not ex-post-facto.
incidentally, Anders Brevik, for one, was completely clean all of his life. he was a racist fuck who killed dozens. and yeah, he was probably mentally ill, but it had NOTHING to do with drug use. he was just a sick fucker. period.
we need to stop making assumptions about the problem or we will NEVER find a solution.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Aug 13, 2019 18:40:37 GMT -5
So, you're not going to answer. What does it explain?
"That explains a lot"
It's the pot! It's the video games! It's the democrats! It's the puppies!
Alcohol is far more likely to contribute to violent crime, but I don't hear you calling for another Prohibition. Why is that?
I didn't specify any particular drug ........ and any mind-altering substance is in that category. You immediately jumped on pot ........ and that is your drug of choice. ..... By your own words
Congrats on your degrees ........... I'm just a factory worker
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 13, 2019 19:25:34 GMT -5
... I didn't specify any particular drug ........ ... Hmm. With what did you start the thread? ... How many states have passed the recreational pot bill? ...
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Aug 14, 2019 14:17:44 GMT -5
Hmm. With what did you start the thread?
Drug control ......... and legalized pot is what a lot of states are doing
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2019 14:30:48 GMT -5
you two have weirdly similar and weirdly different avatars.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 14, 2019 14:45:37 GMT -5
you two have weirdly similar and weirdly different avatars. I don't see anything weird about the difference if you read what we post.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2019 14:54:03 GMT -5
you two have weirdly similar and weirdly different avatars. I don't see anything weird about the difference if you read what we post. you don't think your avatars are weirdly similar?
note: I am not talking about your posts, at all. they are far more different than they are similar.
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