hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 23, 2019 13:26:51 GMT -5
With some previous discussion on women's national soccer (and some upcoming litigation it would seem), I heard today that the WNBA player's union is exercising their right to opt out of their current collective bargaining agreement in order to renegotiate their deal.
That got me thinking about both whether the player's union has any real power there, as well as what would seem to be fair.
A few facts (or presumed facts followed by their source).
-The WNBA lost 12 million last year (per the commissioner) -Player salaries of WNBA players hit about 20% of total WNBA revenue (based on knowing most player salaries) -NBA player salaries are about 50% of NBA revenue (a term of their own CBA)
My initial thoughts:
-How much power can the WNBA player's union have? Given how unpopular in general the league is (nationally), if they just said they were going to strike would the owners really care that much (given many owners are NBA owners, and seem to publicly just kind of accept they are expected to have the team as a cost of doing business in the NBA...they don't seem to be distraught at the idea of either losing games/season to a strike)
-Is it "fair" to get the same 50% of revenue as the NBA gets? On the one hand, the number seems equitable. On the other, paying NBA players 50% is a lot easier when the overall revenue is high enough to still make money on, as opposed to paying 50% when the revenue doesn't cover expenses.
-I'm sure part of the negotiations will include non-monetary treatment. WNBA players still fly commercial, have more recently started to be moved to playing games in smaller arenas due to cost savings, etc.
If we assume that the league actually IS losing money (or is breakeven at best, I'll be interested to see how much book-opening comes out of this negotiation to see for sure), what's fair to pay the players? If the league really is losing that kind of money do they owe some kind of social responsibility to keep the league going at a loss indefinitely?
I'll openly admit I don't watch the WNBA, at all. I really like women's college basketball but the WNBA schedule keeps me away (starting during the NBA playoffs, playing during the summer when I'm more likely to be outside and doing things). Women's college basketball keeps my attention largely because they play during a time of year where I'm more likely to be indoors away from the cold, and because we have a team nearby that has cheap tickets as an event to go to.
Obviously if it comes out the league is making a ton of money (which seems unlikely) the conversation gets very different in a hurry. But what's fair for a league that's losing money and being subsidized via the NBA?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 23, 2019 14:38:36 GMT -5
I don't watch the WNBA or NBA so I have no skin in this game.
From a business standpoint, if they are losing money and are going to demand higher salaries, seems like a no-brainer to shut it down. The NBA has no responsibility to fund the sport. they are either self-supporting or they are not. They do not bring in the revenue that the men do so they will never be compensated like the men are. That's not discrimination. If I had a Rockstar salesperson who brought in tons of revenue and a salesperson who busted their ass but, for whatever reason, just wasn't brining in the sales, the Rockstar would obviously be paid significantly more (and the poor performer would be fired).
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 23, 2019 14:54:25 GMT -5
A couple things I'll say about the league "not making money". These are things I'll be curious to see if the books get opened up.
-How much does the league spend on advertising? They're throwing up LOTS of WNBA commercials during the NBA playoffs. Is this necessary advertising expenditure? Or is this the NBA "showing off" their passion project while slapping the cost against the WNBA revenue when the WNBA would not be spending this money if they were run independently? -How much league overhead is attributed to the WNBA (this could make a big difference if they're taking league-level executives and splitting some portion of their very high salaries between the NBA & WNBA...given that they'd make the same salary even if the WNBA didn't exist)? -How much are individual teams doing these same things by applying bloated executive salaries that wouldn't actually exist in a small league like the WNBA?
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on May 23, 2019 15:13:49 GMT -5
Like Miss Tequila, I don't watch either the NBA or the WNBA. I love college ball, but would rather watch golf than the NBA. I prefer golf to watching paint dry, so that's not saying a whole lot.
I might watch the WNBA if it wasn't on in the summer, but I doubt it. I do wonder why it's a summer sport, though. That has never made any sense at all to me. Basketball is for winter, not summer. Both football and baseball have off seasons (shorter every year it feels like, but there is still a break). Why do we need basketball in some fashion or other year round? If owning a money-losing WNBA team is part of the price of owning a money-making NBA team, that's just business, I guess. Yeah, I get that women want to play basketball professionally. There just isn't the demand for it in the US -- I'm not sure about internationally. If the WNBA was almost any other product, it wouldn't exist anymore or would be a niche product, kinda like the Harlem Globetrotters.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 23, 2019 15:20:47 GMT -5
Like Miss Tequila, I don't watch either the NBA or the WNBA. I love college ball, but would rather watch golf than the NBA. I prefer golf to watching paint dry, so that's not saying a whole lot.
I might watch the WNBA if it wasn't on in the summer, but I doubt it. I do wonder why it's a summer sport, though. That has never made any sense at all to me. Basketball is for winter, not summer. Both football and baseball have off seasons (shorter every year it feels like, but there is still a break). Why do we need basketball in some fashion or other year round? If owning a money-losing WNBA team is part of the price of owning a money-making NBA team, that's just business, I guess. Yeah, I get that women want to play basketball professionally. There just isn't the demand for it in the US -- I'm not sure about internationally. If the WNBA was almost any other product, it wouldn't exist anymore or would be a niche product, kinda like the Harlem Globetrotters.
Internationally some of these women make a LOT of money compared to their WNBA salary. Eastern European women's basketball is huge. I expect there are 2 reasons it's during the summer. 1. The NBA didn't want to compete for WNBA viewership with their NBA product. 2. Eastern European women's basketball is during the winter and the women make a lot of money there.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 23, 2019 15:24:15 GMT -5
There's plenty of demand for women's professional basketball overseas. The star players make over $1 million a season. As with the men playing overseas, they are provided with living quarters, transportation, health insurance and the team pays for them to come to the US over Christmas.
I don't care for professional sports--men or women. I prefer college athletics so I don't watch the WNBA or NBA or golf or football, etc.
I do plan to watch NCAA softball this weekend and then the NCAA Softball World Series. Those are some seriously good athletes, as are the women's basketball players. I just don't like professional sports.
The salaries are too inflated and attending sports is mostly for the drinking and food, not for the game--or for the betting.
The WNBA is a summer sport because the women make their income playing overseas, during the same time of year basketball season runs in the US. Also because they would have to schedule around the NBA for playing and practice facilities.
When preseason camps opened, many of the players were still overseas, in the playoffs for their teams. Some didn't arrive until this week, which resulted in more roster cuts.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 23, 2019 15:24:55 GMT -5
Like Miss Tequila, I don't watch either the NBA or the WNBA. I love college ball, but would rather watch golf than the NBA. I prefer golf to watching paint dry, so that's not saying a whole lot.
I might watch the WNBA if it wasn't on in the summer, but I doubt it. I do wonder why it's a summer sport, though. That has never made any sense at all to me. Basketball is for winter, not summer. Both football and baseball have off seasons (shorter every year it feels like, but there is still a break). Why do we need basketball in some fashion or other year round? If owning a money-losing WNBA team is part of the price of owning a money-making NBA team, that's just business, I guess. Yeah, I get that women want to play basketball professionally. There just isn't the demand for it in the US -- I'm not sure about internationally. If the WNBA was almost any other product, it wouldn't exist anymore or would be a niche product, kinda like the Harlem Globetrotters.
Internationally some of these women make a LOT of money compared to their WNBA salary. Eastern European women's basketball is huge. I expect there are 2 reasons it's during the summer. 1. The NBA didn't want to compete for WNBA viewership with their NBA product. 2. Eastern European women's basketball is during the winter and the women make a lot of money there. Would the WNBA really steal viewership, though? I know several people that love the NBA but no one I know pays any attention to the WNBA. I don't think diehard NBA fans are suddenly going to migrate to being WNBA fans. I could be wrong as I am not a fan of either.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 23, 2019 15:27:29 GMT -5
It's not just Eastern Europe. It's also Japan, Korea, etc. The money is too good for the players to pass up. Some players take the WNBA season to let their bodies heal. Otherwise, they get a very short off season.
One of our alumni's team just won the Serbian championship. She was the MVP. She spent two years trying to catch on with a WNBA team and then decided her body will make her more money over more seasons if she only plays overseas. That doesn't mean she doesn't work out, but it does mean she doesn't have the travel grind and game grind.
Most teams overseas play one game a week and have Sundays totally off.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 23, 2019 15:33:00 GMT -5
Internationally some of these women make a LOT of money compared to their WNBA salary. Eastern European women's basketball is huge. I expect there are 2 reasons it's during the summer. 1. The NBA didn't want to compete for WNBA viewership with their NBA product. 2. Eastern European women's basketball is during the winter and the women make a lot of money there. Would the WNBA really steal viewership, though? I know several people that love the NBA but no one I know pays any attention to the WNBA. I don't think diehard NBA fans are suddenly going to migrate to being WNBA fans. I could be wrong as I am not a fan of either. "I" don't think so, but it's not hard for me to envision the NBA thinking that way (other than the fact it's probably hard to get it on tv during that time period, it's much easier to get it on tv when your only real competition is the daily grind of summer baseball). ETA: It's probably easier to think that way when you're putting WNBA teams in NBA cities (which I primarily would probably not do). I don't think the NBA has done a particularly good job in setting the WNBA up to succeed (other than the obvious massive bonus of having a lot of money behind it). I wouldn't want owners thinking of it as a little add-on to their NBA team, I'd want to target markets that would be more in a frenzy to support a local pro team (again, not playing 2nd fiddle to a bigger better NBA team in the same building), etc.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 23, 2019 15:34:53 GMT -5
Would the WNBA really steal viewership, though? I know several people that love the NBA but no one I know pays any attention to the WNBA. I don't think diehard NBA fans are suddenly going to migrate to being WNBA fans. I could be wrong as I am not a fan of either. "I" don't think so, but it's not hard for me to envision the NBA thinking that way. Gotcha. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on May 23, 2019 16:22:52 GMT -5
It's not just Eastern Europe. It's also Japan, Korea, etc. The money is too good for the players to pass up. Some players take the WNBA season to let their bodies heal. Otherwise, they get a very short off season. One of our alumni's team just won the Serbian championship. She was the MVP. She spent two years trying to catch on with a WNBA team and then decided her body will make her more money over more seasons if she only plays overseas. That doesn't mean she doesn't work out, but it does mean she doesn't have the travel grind and game grind. Most teams overseas play one game a week and have Sundays totally off. Then I’m not sure I can understand wanting to play for the WNBA, other than wanting to play in the US, in front of friends and family. Overseas they’re stars, here they’re basically second fiddle. Take the money and run!
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 23, 2019 16:59:02 GMT -5
I agree, but I do think some want to play in front of their friends and families as they don't get to see them play overseas.
The travel conditions in the WNBA are terrible. They fly commercial, unlike the NBA. Last season, there were flight cancellations late in the season so games could not be made up. It did affect the final standings.
The WNBA and the ABL were started in the same year. The WNBA had the financial backing of the NBA. The ABL and every other women's league have not had that kind of money thrown at them. The ABL did get some of the stars of the day but only lasted two seasons. I volunteered for the team in Denver. They couldn't even afford to give me a bus pass. They were always on the edge of not being able to pay their bills, so I was not suprised when the league folded.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 23, 2019 17:28:23 GMT -5
I agree, but I do think some want to play in front of their friends and families as they don't get to see them play overseas. The travel conditions in the WNBA are terrible. They fly commercial, unlike the NBA. Last season, there were flight cancellations late in the season so games could not be made up. It did affect the final standings. The WNBA and the ABL were started in the same year. The WNBA had the financial backing of the NBA. The ABL and every other women's league have not had that kind of money thrown at them. The ABL did get some of the stars of the day but only lasted two seasons. I volunteered for the team in Denver. They couldn't even afford to give me a bus pass. They were always on the edge of not being able to pay their bills, so I was not suprised when the league folded. Sounds like there is just not a big demand for either. If they are truly being supported by the men’s team I would say it takes. Bras set to want to negotiate for more
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 24, 2019 7:38:32 GMT -5
I agree, but I do think some want to play in front of their friends and families as they don't get to see them play overseas.The travel conditions in the WNBA are terrible. They fly commercial, unlike the NBA. Last season, there were flight cancellations late in the season so games could not be made up. It did affect the final standings. The WNBA and the ABL were started in the same year. The WNBA had the financial backing of the NBA. The ABL and every other women's league have not had that kind of money thrown at them. The ABL did get some of the stars of the day but only lasted two seasons. I volunteered for the team in Denver. They couldn't even afford to give me a bus pass. They were always on the edge of not being able to pay their bills, so I was not suprised when the league folded. I think that's a huge part of it. There's also the fact that it's the offseason from the overseas teams, and none of the women's leagues play the kind of game count as the NBA. There's also the very real advantage of being in front of American audiences to increase your domestic recognition for doing things like having camps ("star of random WNBA team" probably draws more interest than "star of random European team I've never heard of"), for getting women's coaching jobs, and recently even getting jobs on NBA staffs (in at least one case, a job on the NBA staff for the ownership which owns the WNBA team she plays on...building those kinds of relationships is critical in the world of coaching). I'm not sure I'd call the travel conditions "terrible" though. They're flying commercial, they're not driving scooters across the country. It's far less luxurious than taking a private jet/team plane, but it could hardly be considered terrible if looked at objectively and not in a comparison to a much more financially successful league.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 24, 2019 7:46:46 GMT -5
I agree, but I do think some want to play in front of their friends and families as they don't get to see them play overseas. The travel conditions in the WNBA are terrible. They fly commercial, unlike the NBA. Last season, there were flight cancellations late in the season so games could not be made up. It did affect the final standings. The WNBA and the ABL were started in the same year. The WNBA had the financial backing of the NBA. The ABL and every other women's league have not had that kind of money thrown at them. The ABL did get some of the stars of the day but only lasted two seasons. I volunteered for the team in Denver. They couldn't even afford to give me a bus pass. They were always on the edge of not being able to pay their bills, so I was not suprised when the league folded. Sounds like there is just not a big demand for either. If they are truly being supported by the men’s team I would say it takes. Bras set to want to negotiate for more I think at least some portion of it is that right now they only have management saying "we're losing money"...and so re-opening the negotiation means more opportunity to examine those claims. I also think there's probably another portion that just wants more money because they WANT it to be more successful than it really is. It has to be very hard to realize that very few people care that you're an elite woman's basketball player, while elite men's basketball players are wildly rich in comparison. Lots of people think they should be paid for being good, without realizing that being good isn't relevant if it isn't driving profits (and I think even though a lot of the WNBA players understand that, it's probably a hard pill to swallow when the men's game is so popular).
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on May 24, 2019 8:45:25 GMT -5
The reason I say travel conditions are terrible is because these are tall women. They fly economy, sometimes with a game the same day they arrive. Not even college teams do that. It is next to impossible for tall women to be comfortable on a plane anywhere but the exit row. There are not enough exit rows for the entire team to be seated there.
Games have been cancelled over travel problems because the coaches and owners felt it wasn't safe for the players to play a game an hour after arriving in town.
The only player I am aware of who doesn't play overseas is Elena Delle Donne. She has a disabled sister and she will not leave Lizzy. The two sisters have always been very close and she feels her sister needs her in her life.
Elena has successfully marketed herself and seems to be doing well financially in the off season for the WNBA with camps, writing books and making furniture along with spending time with her sister.
Delle Donne was probably the first player to totally snub UConn and Geno. She arrived on campus and knew immediately it wasn't for her. It wasn't the hard work. It was that she would be too far from Lizzy. Geno said horrible things about her after she quit and so did former UConn players.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 24, 2019 9:41:03 GMT -5
The reason I say travel conditions are terrible is because these are tall women. They fly economy, sometimes with a game the same day they arrive. Not even college teams do that. It is next to impossible for tall women to be comfortable on a plane anywhere but the exit row. There are not enough exit rows for the entire team to be seated there. As someone taller than most of these women, it isn't fun to fly this way...but I'm not sure I'd characterize it as terrible still.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on May 24, 2019 9:56:15 GMT -5
I think professional athletes in the the main 4 US sports are grossly overpaid but the sports are making money and that's what the market dictates. My biggest gripe with MLB and the NBA are fully guaranteed contracts but the unions/leagues agreed to it. The cost to attend games for a family of four has gotten ridiculous and between that and drunk fans I far prefer to watch on TV which is a better view than any ticket I can buy. In recent years a lot of franchises signed TV deals which have made them a lot of money but as people are cutting the chord paying for channels they don't want I'm curious to see what future deals look like.
The WNBA would have folded a long time ago if it weren't for the backing of the NBA. I read that they signed a deal I believe with CBS to air WNBA games and maybe that helps but I doubt it does much. I lost interest in the NBA 3-5 years ago and it's only gotten worse with super teams and any time I see even a playoff game it seems like half of them stand around while a few guys move and they shoot too many 3's. I grew up watching the NBA in the 90's and it just seemed liked such a more physical game where guys didn't join the team they couldn't beat. Plenty of my friends still watch but I think most prefer March Madness. That said I don't envision any guy I know getting interested in the WNBA. Fundamentally the women are more sound than the men but it just isn't entertaining to watch.
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