hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 8, 2019 15:25:03 GMT -5
... As an example...if you needed life-saving surgery...what doctor would you want to work on you? This is a merit decision, you are judging their quality as a surgeon. One who worked really hard but started with so many disadvantages that they have no idea what they are doing? Or one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and is an expert? ... I want the one that although they started with many disadvantages, they worked really hard, and became an expert. Not the one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and continues to only work moderately. The only expert here is the one who had lots of advantages. If you're making the one who started lower higher in merit, then they'd win on merit which makes your premise inherently flawed.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 8, 2019 15:43:10 GMT -5
I want the one that although they started with many disadvantages, they worked really hard, and became an expert. Not the one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and continues to only work moderately. The only expert here is the one who had lots of advantages. If you're making the one who started lower higher in merit, then they'd win on merit which makes your premise inherently flawed. That would depend on the point where "merit" is determined. Your premise is wanting a surgeon operating on me who is an expert. That future surgeon with less "merit" could have been given a position over one with more "merit" at the preschool, elementary, secondary, college, Med school, or residency level.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 8, 2019 15:52:27 GMT -5
The only expert here is the one who had lots of advantages. If you're making the one who started lower higher in merit, then they'd win on merit which makes your premise inherently flawed. That would depend on the point where "merit" is determined. Your premise is wanting a surgeon operating on me who is an expert. That future surgeon with less "merit" could have been given a position over one with more "merit" at the preschool, elementary, secondary, college, Med school, or residency level. Merit is determined at whatever point we are making the decision. You can't make a merit decision TODAY on whatever you dream the future to be for the individuals. That's not a merit decision. If you could simply accurately predict the future with all possible outcomes, you wouldn't need to make any merit vs need decision, you'd just do whatever you magically accurately forecasted the future to be in your crystal ball. We're talking about the moment of decision where the higher merit is not the higher need. It's a point in time decision, not a decision in the future looking backward or in the past looking forward. You have a decision in front of you now.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 8, 2019 16:07:01 GMT -5
... You can't make a merit decision TODAY on whatever you dream the future to be for the individuals. ... Do you mean like whether they will end up being an expert surgeon or not?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 8, 2019 16:17:58 GMT -5
... You can't make a merit decision TODAY on whatever you dream the future to be for the individuals. ... Do you mean like whether they will end up being an expert surgeon or not? If you need surgery today, you're making the decision today, there is no "will end up", you are making a decision today at a point in time that you are laying out your payment. That's the point, YOU want to make merit decisions in YOUR best interest...but you want everyone BEFORE you to put their resources into other things, in hopes that they will provide you the best MERIT decision later. Need-based decisions are fine whenever I don't have to make them and they don't impact me...but when it's my time to make a decision, I want to base it on MERIT. You want other people to try looking into their crystal ball, and investing their resources TODAY, in hopes you can have the best possible product in the future. Everyone wants someone else, typically earlier in the process, to spend the resources so that they can have something better when the resource comes down the line to them. So again, when YOU are making the decision, you need life-saving surgery. Do you choose someone who needs your payment but doesn't have the requisite skills but tries really hard (we'll ignore that people are conflating "tries really hard" with "has need" as if they are synonymous when they clearly are not)? Or do you choose someone with the requisite skills who doesn't really need your payment? You're not even arguing need, you're arguing "give the investment into future merit" which isn't the same thing. But even if it were...the point still stands that almost all of us want to make merit decisions, we just want OTHER PEOPLE to make decisions in other ways so long as it doesn't really impact us. Everyone is very generous with other people's money...or in some cases like this, willing to take a lot more risks with other people's money.
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 8, 2019 16:20:21 GMT -5
Unless parents are paying for that ‘merit’... Even when it doesn’t rise to the level of cheating. How much of merit is hard work and how much of it is exposure and supplemental programming? Do you think kids with all the disadvantages don’t work just as hard if not harder to attain what they do than those who start with all the advantages? Merit can’t just be assessment of an end point, until the starting and checkpoints are all equal. This all sounds nice in theory, it just doesn't hold up in the real world. As an example...if you needed life-saving surgery...what doctor would you want to work on you? This is a merit decision, you are judging their quality as a surgeon. One who worked really hard but started with so many disadvantages that they have no idea what they are doing? Or one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and is an expert? Merit is not a judgement of who works hardest...it's a judgment of something measurable (in many cases of education, academic achievement). Someone may have worked REALLY hard just to get to the point they can read and not do much else academically. Someone else may have worked an average level to get themselves to the point they have great understanding of chemistry. If I have to invest $200k into a student to create a chemical engineer...I'm thinking about where my money is going to give me the best opportunity to get the end-result I'm looking for. It's not the merit of "are you a good person", it's the merit of "what have you achieved". 1) We aren’t talking about how classes and skills are assessed. One hopes those are standardized, but about admissions and tuition. 2) How is a white legacy no brains who bought their way in better? I want the best. Regardless of where they started. .
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 8, 2019 16:23:34 GMT -5
This all sounds nice in theory, it just doesn't hold up in the real world. As an example...if you needed life-saving surgery...what doctor would you want to work on you? This is a merit decision, you are judging their quality as a surgeon. One who worked really hard but started with so many disadvantages that they have no idea what they are doing? Or one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and is an expert? Merit is not a judgement of who works hardest...it's a judgment of something measurable (in many cases of education, academic achievement). Someone may have worked REALLY hard just to get to the point they can read and not do much else academically. Someone else may have worked an average level to get themselves to the point they have great understanding of chemistry. If I have to invest $200k into a student to create a chemical engineer...I'm thinking about where my money is going to give me the best opportunity to get the end-result I'm looking for. It's not the merit of "are you a good person", it's the merit of "what have you achieved". 1) We aren’t talking about how classes and skills are assessed. One hopes those are standardized, but about admissions and tuition. 2) How is a white legacy no brains who bought their way in better? I want the best. Regardless of where they started. . If they have no brains and bought their way in, they don't score at the top for merit, so not sure where you're going for that. And no, admissions is not a consideration, we're talking about where to put money, towards merit or need. Right, YOU want the best. So let's simplify the question. Merit or need. What do you think is a better litmus test of "the best"? Achievement (merit)? Or family income (need)? ETA: And if your stance is "one hopes those are standardized", isn't that the primary driver of the "this person worked harder but started with more disadvantages" argument? They are standardized, but heavily favor certain groups who started with advantages. If you aren't talking about how classes and skills are assessed, it becomes a no-brainer toward merit. The reason things aren't necessarily a no-brainer for merit is because the ways classes and skills are assessed many feel aren't very good.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 8, 2019 16:32:34 GMT -5
...the point still stands that almost all of us want to make merit decisions, we just want OTHER PEOPLE to make decisions in other ways so long as it doesn't really impact us. ... You can stop using "you" when referencing my posts. I am one of the not "almost all". I have made decisions based on other than merit that have impacted me. And FWIW, every Med School student who takes a seat and then drops out, every successful malpractice lawsuit impacts my cost of health care.
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 8, 2019 16:41:09 GMT -5
1) We aren’t talking about how classes and skills are assessed. One hopes those are standardized, but about admissions and tuition. 2) How is a white legacy no brains who bought their way in better? I want the best. Regardless of where they started. . If they have no brains and bought their way in, they don't score at the top for merit, so not sure where you're going for that. And no, admissions is not a consideration, we're talking about where to put money, towards merit or need. Right, YOU want the best. So let's simplify the question. Merit or need. What do you think is a better litmus test of "the best"? Achievement (merit)? Or family income (need)? ETA: And if your stance is "one hopes those are standardized", isn't that the primary driver of the "this person worked harder but started with more disadvantages" argument? They are standardized, but heavily favor certain groups who started with advantages. If you aren't talking about how classes and skills are assessed, it becomes a no-brainer toward merit. The reason things aren't necessarily a no-brainer for merit is because the ways classes and skills are assessed many feel aren't very good. Where am i going? Did you read about recent score manipulation where parents bought SAT scores... bought essays... etc. What do you think merit is determined by?
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 8, 2019 16:45:59 GMT -5
Hell, even in my little circle... i couldn't grade daughter with straight As as a freshman/sophomore because she was homeschooled.... straight As from homeschoolers aren't viewed as legitimate... I couldn't count them as AP either.... so instead of the 4.3 most of her friends entered their junior year with, she had a 3.7 i think? .... Even though her final literature project for 10th grade was Margaret Atwood... reading and writing on the Handmaid's Tale, essays about Atwood, essays by Atwood, tying atwood into culture and history and current events... and her current SENIOR AP class is reading Huck Finn and Scarlet letter... which she did in middle school...
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 8, 2019 17:37:31 GMT -5
... As an example...if you needed life-saving surgery...what doctor would you want to work on you? This is a merit decision, you are judging their quality as a surgeon. One who worked really hard but started with so many disadvantages that they have no idea what they are doing? Or one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and is an expert? ... I want the one that although they started with many disadvantages, they worked really hard, and became an expert. Not the one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and continues to only work moderately. I want the best surgeon working on me or my loved ones. I do not care if this surgeon was born with a silver spoon in their mouth or had to fight their way out of poverty. My life is not a social experiment. I do logs of research when selecting a surgeon but I never dive into their childhood. That has no bearing on their skill set now.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Apr 8, 2019 21:15:34 GMT -5
To me, the bigger question is why does the Asian population do so well? I did not listen to the podcast but I saw nothing in the article to indicate that every Asian that got in was wealthy and benefited from extra help. Asians value education and the kids are pushed to excel. If they earned the scores over whites or blacks then they deserve the spots. Maybe instead of trying to take away spots from Asians, whites and blacks should adjust their cultures to prioritized education Let's say your kiddo was at a lesson. Let's say your kiddo was crying because they were physically ill. We'll also assume that the kiddo does not fake illness. Would you make them continue? Because pushing is good? Sorry. This white mom won't push her kids to go to school/lessons at all costs-including making them go to school while they have the flu and strep.
What about the Asian population that is just simply motivated? One of my old clients got into an Ivy League School. Her mom would tell me that she wished her daughter wouldn't put so much pressure on herself to succeed, wished she'd slow down and be a bit more of a normal kid, etc.
ETA: You do also realize that education is also influenced by politics. And that Repubs, generally, have demonized being educated, right? You don't get to decide that pushing your kid to succeed is not your priority then try to claim the benefits of pushing your kid to succeed. If you are going to let your kids miss school for quality of life reasons (and kids don't suffer at school from missing 2 days a year cause they have the flu [img]http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rolleyes2.gif[/img] ) then the Asian kid that prioritised succeeding and did the work gets to claim the prize.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Apr 8, 2019 21:21:31 GMT -5
I think there is room for both merit based scholarships and need based scholarships. Anyone can compete for merit based. The rich do not qualify for need based. I never really expect wealthy people to apply for grants for school and only apply for scholarships that have some prestige attached to them. Often schools give out those awards because they expect having that student attend their school to bring them prestige in the future.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Apr 8, 2019 21:25:11 GMT -5
Now yesterday this conversation came up again because her school offered an award to 4 medical school students (15k/each) and it is based on merits. But 2 of the 4 students when they went to apply the scholarship against their tuition and what not, they found out their parents had already paid in full the 60k/year tuition bill. So the 15k was then offered to the student to use for their expenses or as they see fit! I guess that started some conversation how maybe the award should have gone to students that needed it vs student that did not. I don't think the fact that the parents had paid the tuition proved lack of need. Who knows what loans those parents have for their kids or how much they are sacrificing to pay the tuition. Personally I think the kids should at least offer it to their parents to reimburse part of the tuition.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Apr 8, 2019 22:08:32 GMT -5
I come from a place of money and education, and I benefitted from that greatly. In college (1990) I was challenged to think about affirmative action, and I have been thinking about it ever since. 30 years later, I'm still stumped. Until there is some parity of economic achievement, we should keep working. But, what is the most effective methods? I am 100% sure there was a smarter or harder (or both) person than me who didn't come up through the place I did, so they didn't go to college and I did. And they didn't become an executive, but I did. Is that fair? Is that merit? I got in because I went to the right high school, and my parents forced me through the whole process and paid cash money for my tuition. I was also pre-programmed to be part of a business office scenario. If I had been born into another type of family, there is no way I would have gotten through college, nor would have I made it through my first few years of my career. It wasn't merit, it was culture. My life was the polar opposite of your. I lived in poverty and barely passed high school. My mom was too busy living her life to worry about mine. Plus she only had a high school education and never really worked as she got married at 19. Reality hit me when I graduated high school and realized if I didn’t get my shit together my kids would be living my childhood and there was no way I was going to let that happen Finished college 2 years later than my peers and mommy tracked myself for many years but still managed to become an executive in my early 40s. Culture didn’t get me there, ambition and drive did. I guess revolting against the culture I was raised in got me there But many of the people that lived in the government housing with me are now in their 40s and still living in poverty. They had the same choices in life that I did. But you have to want to overcome your circumstances. I wanted it very badly while others must not have wanted it as badly. They chose to repeat their mothers mistakes, instead of learning from them We go through this so often. It's more than just wanting to get out of the circumstances, it's having the exceptional ability to do so. With your drive and talent, if you had started on an even playing field you could be running the company. If you are average and born into a rich family you can do very well quite easily. If you are average and born into a poor family there is a good chance you are going to stay there. Rich kids get to benefit from their parents success, poor kids pay for their parents failures. I have mixed emotions about that.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 9, 2019 7:47:01 GMT -5
If they have no brains and bought their way in, they don't score at the top for merit, so not sure where you're going for that. And no, admissions is not a consideration, we're talking about where to put money, towards merit or need. Right, YOU want the best. So let's simplify the question. Merit or need. What do you think is a better litmus test of "the best"? Achievement (merit)? Or family income (need)? ETA: And if your stance is "one hopes those are standardized", isn't that the primary driver of the "this person worked harder but started with more disadvantages" argument? They are standardized, but heavily favor certain groups who started with advantages. If you aren't talking about how classes and skills are assessed, it becomes a no-brainer toward merit. The reason things aren't necessarily a no-brainer for merit is because the ways classes and skills are assessed many feel aren't very good. Where am i going? Did you read about recent score manipulation where parents bought SAT scores... bought essays... etc. What do you think merit is determined by? I guess I missed the part where those students all got a ton of merit scholarships, can you link me to that please?
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 9, 2019 8:01:45 GMT -5
I included admissions in my discussion.
But I guess you don’t currently have kids in college? General Merit from the school comes in based on numbers.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 9, 2019 8:11:48 GMT -5
I included admissions in my discussion. But I guess you don’t currently have kids in college? General Merit from the school comes in based on numbers. You included admissions, but admissions is irrelevant to whether you reward merit or need. We're talking about monetary awards, not admissions. You also in the same entry said you aren't talking about how classes and skills are assessed...which is the only good rebuttal really to "we should just use merit for everything" (because there are lots of good arguments that the assessments are not very good in that they don't really measure intelligence or potential). Now you just seem to want to argue "well what if people fake their merit?", ok, but "what if people fake their need?". A logical argument can never be based on "Well I need to decide between 2 things, I'll assign one as real and the other as fake so that I can manipulate it to be whatever makes my own argument better". Still waiting for you to show me where those folks got scholarship money other than you just deciding in your mind that they did. You've somehow decided in your imagination that "they cheated to get into school" means "they cheated to get high achievement which got them a bunch of scholarships".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2019 8:16:18 GMT -5
I don't think the fact that the parents had paid the tuition proved lack of need. Who knows what loans those parents have for their kids or how much they are sacrificing to pay the tuition. Personally I think the kids should at least offer it to their parents to reimburse part of the tuition. I agree with this- "need" is hard to define. When DS was in HS, just for a laugh I got onto the calculator on the Princeton University Web site to see how much financial aid DS qualified for. At the time I was making a good salary (I think it was $120K) and a lot of savings but had a $250K mortgage and the NNJ property taxes to go with it, and had no hope of any support from my Ex. The calculator results implied that not only could I send DS to Princeton with no financial aid, but I had enough resources to send TWO kids to Princeton with no financial aid. (I sent him to Drake after we moved to the Midwest; his Aunt, my Ex's sister, paid half and I paid the other half.) So, yes, there are Mommies and Daddies out there with bottomless pockets, but there are also parents taking out loans and shortchanging their own retirement to get kids through college. Some end up having their SS attached when they hit retirement and can no longer pay on the loans they took out for the kids. So- I'd lean heavily towards needs-based but would define "needy" a lot more liberally than it is now.
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 9, 2019 8:36:27 GMT -5
Yeah. I don't have time to argue this with you, or explain to you how merit awards work at university.
I think that merit and need should be considered when talking about admissions and financial awards.
This has nothing to do with completing work or a degree program, neither or which are based on need unless you are talking about disabilities.
I am more likely to give need base allowances than merit based allowances in these situations. There many reasons for this. I have listed some.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2019 13:17:20 GMT -5
My life was the polar opposite of your. I lived in poverty and barely passed high school. My mom was too busy living her life to worry about mine. Plus she only had a high school education and never really worked as she got married at 19. Reality hit me when I graduated high school and realized if I didn’t get my shit together my kids would be living my childhood and there was no way I was going to let that happen Finished college 2 years later than my peers and mommy tracked myself for many years but still managed to become an executive in my early 40s. Culture didn’t get me there, ambition and drive did. I guess revolting against the culture I was raised in got me there But many of the people that lived in the government housing with me are now in their 40s and still living in poverty. They had the same choices in life that I did. But you have to want to overcome your circumstances. I wanted it very badly while others must not have wanted it as badly. They chose to repeat their mothers mistakes, instead of learning from them You are definitely not the average story. I find you quite extraordinary, and am continually impressed with your self-motivation and achievement. I believe more people could have a story closer to yours, but there has to be some kind of help or education or something that would help more people understand what they could do. Or something. I really dont know the answer. Our system has been lopsided forever, and has gotten more lopsided over the past 40 years. Not impossible, but I feel like we are moving in the wrong direction. I just read this interesting article about a man who escaped poverty's perspective on it.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 10, 2019 19:21:29 GMT -5
I think that one of the things that is missing from this discussion is an examination of just how insanely cheap, easy, and uncomplicated it is to award a goodie based on a third-party assessment of merit. It's not hard to get one's hands on GPAs or MCAT scores for an entire class as long as the school that the student attend cooperates.
Getting need or income information regarding students is much harder, even if the award-granter decides to determine merit almost entirely on the basis of information contained in the FAFSA and has decided not to consider any student that did not submit a FAFSA or take the necessary steps to have the FAFSA information transmitted to the award-granter.
I shudder to think of how much it could cost to decide how to award four $15.000 need-based awards comprised of information derived primarily from individual FAFSAs that trickle in one by one from students who have taken positive steps to get this information to the award granters.
It does not surprise me a bit that even folks who think that the available metrics of merit are severely flawed still use them just because they are cheap and easy compared to even the most elementary assessments of need.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 11, 2019 8:18:01 GMT -5
I think that one of the things that is missing from this discussion is an examination of just how insanely cheap, easy, and uncomplicated it is to award a goodie based on a third-party assessment of merit. It's not hard to get one's hands on GPAs or MCAT scores for an entire class as long as the school that the student attend cooperates.
Getting need or income information regarding students is much harder, even if the award-granter decides to determine merit almost entirely on the basis of information contained in the FAFSA and has decided not to consider any student that did not submit a FAFSA or take the necessary steps to have the FAFSA information transmitted to the award-granter.
I shudder to think of how much it could cost to decide how to award four $15.000 need-based awards comprised of information derived primarily from individual FAFSAs that trickle in one by one from students who have taken positive steps to get this information to the award granters.
It does not surprise me a bit that even folks who think that the available metrics of merit are severely flawed still use them just because they are cheap and easy compared to even the most elementary assessments of need.
It gets even more complicated when you start thinking of it in the ways I think most of us would WANT it to be, which is some kind of combination of merit/need. If we think of both merit and need on scales from 0-100...I think a lot of people would rather give money to someone with a merit of 100 over someone with a merit of 0, regardless of need. Throwing money at someone who has a long history of not even trying is probably a bad use of resources. But would you rather give to someone with a merit of 90 and a need of 90, or a merit of 100 and a need of 80? And neither measure really speaks to the poor method the measures are calculated. FAFSA is a joke. Things like GPAs are a joke when compared across schools (and if you're talking college entrance, it's such a variety of schools that it's almost irrelevant). It's not hard to determine necessarily who is dirt poor and super needy, or who is a horrible student and super low merit...but distinguishing anything other than the super needy and super low merit can be very difficult due to the poor measurements.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 11, 2019 8:46:48 GMT -5
... ...but distinguishing anything other than the super needy and super low merit can be very difficult due to the poor measurements. AND different concepts of "merit". Is it more meritorious to edit the yearbook, organize the blood drive, and captain the soccer team (and then drive home to a nicely prepared meal) or to be the shift manager at the local hamburger joint (and then catch the bus home to fix dinner for younger siblings, check their homework, tuck them into bed, and do the dishes while waiting for Mom to get home from her job)?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Apr 11, 2019 12:51:00 GMT -5
I think that one of the things that is missing from this discussion is an examination of just how insanely cheap, easy, and uncomplicated it is to award a goodie based on a third-party assessment of merit. It's not hard to get one's hands on GPAs or MCAT scores for an entire class as long as the school that the student attend cooperates.
Getting need or income information regarding students is much harder, even if the award-granter decides to determine merit almost entirely on the basis of information contained in the FAFSA and has decided not to consider any student that did not submit a FAFSA or take the necessary steps to have the FAFSA information transmitted to the award-granter.
I shudder to think of how much it could cost to decide how to award four $15.000 need-based awards comprised of information derived primarily from individual FAFSAs that trickle in one by one from students who have taken positive steps to get this information to the award granters.
It does not surprise me a bit that even folks who think that the available metrics of merit are severely flawed still use them just because they are cheap and easy compared to even the most elementary assessments of need.
It gets even more complicated when you start thinking of it in the ways I think most of us would WANT it to be, which is some kind of combination of merit/need. If we think of both merit and need on scales from 0-100...I think a lot of people would rather give money to someone with a merit of 100 over someone with a merit of 0, regardless of need. Throwing money at someone who has a long history of not even trying is probably a bad use of resources. But would you rather give to someone with a merit of 90 and a need of 90, or a merit of 100 and a need of 80? And neither measure really speaks to the poor method the measures are calculated. FAFSA is a joke. Things like GPAs are a joke when compared across schools (and if you're talking college entrance, it's such a variety of schools that it's almost irrelevant). It's not hard to determine necessarily who is dirt poor and super needy, or who is a horrible student and super low merit...but distinguishing anything other than the super needy and super low merit can be very difficult due to the poor measurements. I think once they qualify to go to the university in the first place they have fulfilled the minimum merit standard. Someone who has zero merit wouldn't qualify to even be there. Unless you used that guy that was just charged with all the fraud
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 11, 2019 13:16:49 GMT -5
It gets even more complicated when you start thinking of it in the ways I think most of us would WANT it to be, which is some kind of combination of merit/need. If we think of both merit and need on scales from 0-100...I think a lot of people would rather give money to someone with a merit of 100 over someone with a merit of 0, regardless of need. Throwing money at someone who has a long history of not even trying is probably a bad use of resources. But would you rather give to someone with a merit of 90 and a need of 90, or a merit of 100 and a need of 80? And neither measure really speaks to the poor method the measures are calculated. FAFSA is a joke. Things like GPAs are a joke when compared across schools (and if you're talking college entrance, it's such a variety of schools that it's almost irrelevant). It's not hard to determine necessarily who is dirt poor and super needy, or who is a horrible student and super low merit...but distinguishing anything other than the super needy and super low merit can be very difficult due to the poor measurements. I think once they qualify to go to the university in the first place they have fulfilled the minimum merit standard. Someone who has zero merit wouldn't qualify to even be there. Unless you used that guy that was just charged with all the fraud Not everything is university-related though (or if you want, you can consider 0 to be the minimum of the group granted entry, the numbers themselves are all relative with no true meaning other than to provide a scale). Some merit vs need is based on lower levels of schooling, some without any necessary standard to gain entry.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Apr 12, 2019 16:17:07 GMT -5
I think once they qualify to go to the university in the first place they have fulfilled the minimum merit standard. Someone who has zero merit wouldn't qualify to even be there. Unless you used that guy that was just charged with all the fraud Not everything is university-related though (or if you want, you can consider 0 to be the minimum of the group granted entry, the numbers themselves are all relative with no true meaning other than to provide a scale). Some merit vs need is based on lower levels of schooling, some without any necessary standard to gain entry. Like what?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 15, 2019 7:50:14 GMT -5
Not everything is university-related though (or if you want, you can consider 0 to be the minimum of the group granted entry, the numbers themselves are all relative with no true meaning other than to provide a scale). Some merit vs need is based on lower levels of schooling, some without any necessary standard to gain entry. Like what? Like local private schools that go down to Pre-K for admittance.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Apr 15, 2019 7:55:10 GMT -5
Like local private schools that go down to Pre-K for admittance. At that level (Kindergarten) the only awards I have seen offered are “need” based by the private schools not merit based. Also all the private’s schools we were considering only offer Need based for Kindergarten and up , not Pre-K3 or Pre-K4 since not mandatory. Talking about 25k-40k/year schools that we have looked into.
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 15, 2019 7:58:33 GMT -5
hoops... did you say that some places without a standard for entry give merit based funding? I'm confused.
Our local private actually doesn't give any need based adjustments before K, because pre-k isn't mandatory... so if you can afford to pay for it, your kid can go to pre-k, but not if you can't afford it... (i do think they assume if you can't afford it then you have head start? but still, its a bit backward in my thinking.)
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