TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Apr 5, 2019 15:27:04 GMT -5
Is it a battle or each should stay in their lane and focus on their priorities? Are we missing the “big picture”? This has been an ongoing discussion between my wife and I since it was published that NYC most selective public school only offered 7 spots to black students : www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/podcasts/the-daily/black-students-nyc-high-school.htmlWhile my wife is perfectly ok with the school choice, the majority of their student body is Asian, and use examples how her current employer offers a summer programs to some some prospective students because some “minority” students while they were at the top of their schools; when it comes to college find they are behind compared to their peers. I can see that perspective but I feel if you are accepting government money than you open yourself to people being all up in your business, how you conduct yourself and how things are not “fair” or “equitable”. Now yesterday this conversation came up again because her school offered an award to 4 medical school students (15k/each) and it is based on merits. But 2 of the 4 students when they went to apply the scholarship against their tuition and what not, they found out their parents had already paid in full the 60k/year tuition bill. So the 15k was then offered to the student to use for their expenses or as they see fit! I guess that started some conversation how maybe the award should have gone to students that needed it vs student that did not. I know the imbalance continue to grow between the have and have nots, and I probably will never be the parent that can fork over 60k/year for my child medical school... but are we pushing for a balance approach or a fair approach a bit too much? Should we just accept some things are need based and some others are merit based and yes sometimes the merit kids are from well to do families that had a leg up their whole life....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 7, 2019 9:07:37 GMT -5
I’m all for merit over need. Sometimes doing the right thing or being successful should be celebrated. I saw a teacher do that in school. Instead of focusing all her attention on little Johnny the class a-hole, she focused on the good students and basically told the disruptive ones that when they were ready to behave and learn, they’d be worthy of her time and efforts. Bright Futures is all about merit. Plus forced volunteerism. But anything from 3.0 up is rewarded regardless of financial need. Btw, that 60k is just school. They still need to eat and live somewhere.
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 7, 2019 9:36:35 GMT -5
Unless parents are paying for that ‘merit’...
Even when it doesn’t rise to the level of cheating. How much of merit is hard work and how much of it is exposure and supplemental programming?
Do you think kids with all the disadvantages don’t work just as hard if not harder to attain what they do than those who start with all the advantages?
Merit can’t just be assessment of an end point, until the starting and checkpoints are all equal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2019 9:47:27 GMT -5
I think they should have both. Grades in high school and test scores are one way to measure potential success in college/life, but nobody can deny that a lot of kids have a huge leg up there. One of my son's friends got into Michigan, which kind of blows my mind because I've known him since he was 6 from scouts and he seems like a bit of meathead to me. But, his parents (Dad doctor, Mom engineer) paid thousands of dollars for tutoring for him over the years. He took the ACT 4 times, and his resume is stellar because they had him in everything and are super involved in the school/community with their son. DS has another friend that had a couple years of lousy grades because he missed school all the time due to his single mom being ill with MS. He works a lot so isn't involved in any extracurricular activities, and even though his GPA isn't great and he could only afford to take the ACT once, that kid is sharp as a tack. I mean crazy brilliant.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 7, 2019 10:19:00 GMT -5
To me, the bigger question is why does the Asian population do so well? I did not listen to the podcast but I saw nothing in the article to indicate that every Asian that got in was wealthy and benefited from extra help. Asians value education and the kids are pushed to excel. If they earned the scores over whites or blacks then they deserve the spots.
Maybe instead of trying to take away spots from Asians, whites and blacks should adjust their cultures to prioritized education
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 7, 2019 10:32:53 GMT -5
..., whites and blacks should adjust their cultures to prioritized education Spot on. since I am one of the whites, I will get right on adjusting my culture. Hmmmmmm. Hmmmmmmm. hey, help me out here. How do I do that?
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Apr 7, 2019 11:12:50 GMT -5
Unless parents are paying for that ‘merit’... Even when it doesn’t rise to the level of cheating. How much of merit is hard work and how much of it is exposure and supplemental programming? Do you think kids with all the disadvantages don’t work just as hard if not harder to attain what they do than those who start with all the advantages? Merit can’t just be assessment of an end point, until the starting and checkpoints are all equal. That is true... I remember watching “Secretary” and there is a part where hey had a consultant helping their son pick out/apply to colleges, and helping them review the offers and which ones were best. Blew my mind, I never knew such thing existed! But as I became a parent in a very competitive DC area where parents start discussing schools and extracurricular activities the moment the stick shows they are pregnant and it is crazy the amount of things (if money is not an issue) you can use to guide your guide towards the desired end results you want. As someone else mention you have private tutoring or lessons for the SAT’s; private tutoring for the class you are not excelling at; private mentoring for the sports you are not excelling at; Being part of sports clubs or other extracurricular activities ; etc. So while you may not have directly “paid” for that merit aid; all those years providing the right “help” lead to it so indirectly you did . Remind me of this video:
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Apr 7, 2019 11:14:00 GMT -5
My son in law is Indian, he was telling me that when he was in school everthing is geared to math and science. You are either an engineer or a doctor all other fields are considered screw off courses.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Apr 7, 2019 11:22:49 GMT -5
My son in law is Indian, he was telling me that when he was in school everthing is geared to math and science. You are either an engineer or a doctor all other fields are considered screw off courses. That is most third world countries / developing countries/ cultures: for Haiti you are either a Doctor, a lawyer or an Engineer. Anything else is a waste... but can you build a country on the backs of lawyers, doctors and engineers only?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 7, 2019 11:36:47 GMT -5
My son in law is Indian, he was telling me that when he was in school everthing is geared to math and science. You are either an engineer or a doctor all other fields are considered screw off courses. Statistics on Indian Higher EducationDang, can't get chart to appear. So I will type it. Top 4 fields of study 37% Arts 19% Science 18% Commerce & Management 16% Engineering & Technology So either over half are screwing off or your son in law is a bit biased. What did he study?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 7, 2019 11:39:01 GMT -5
To me, the bigger question is why does the Asian population do so well? I did not listen to the podcast but I saw nothing in the article to indicate that every Asian that got in was wealthy and benefited from extra help. Asians value education and the kids are pushed to excel. If they earned the scores over whites or blacks then they deserve the spots. Maybe instead of trying to take away spots from Asians, whites and blacks should adjust their cultures to prioritized education Let's say your kiddo was at a lesson. Let's say your kiddo was crying because they were physically ill. We'll also assume that the kiddo does not fake illness. Would you make them continue? Because pushing is good? Sorry. This white mom won't push her kids to go to school/lessons at all costs-including making them go to school while they have the flu and strep.
What about the Asian population that is just simply motivated? One of my old clients got into an Ivy League School. Her mom would tell me that she wished her daughter wouldn't put so much pressure on herself to succeed, wished she'd slow down and be a bit more of a normal kid, etc.
ETA: You do also realize that education is also influenced by politics. And that Repubs, generally, have demonized being educated, right?
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Apr 7, 2019 11:49:00 GMT -5
My son in law is Indian, he was telling me that when he was in school everthing is geared to math and science. You are either an engineer or a doctor all other fields are considered screw off courses. Statistics on Indian Higher EducationDang, can't get chart to appear. So I will type it. Top 4 fields of study 37% Arts 19% Science 18% Commerce & Management 16% Engineering & Technology So either over half are screwing off or your son in law is a bit biased. What did he study? He is a software engineer. He didn't say other fields didn't exist they do, just you are looked down upon because they add no value to society.
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stillmovingforward
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Post by stillmovingforward on Apr 7, 2019 11:50:31 GMT -5
I'm going against average and say need. Mainly because when I was in college and very needy, I didn't have time to devote myself solely to school. I had 2 kids to support as well and you can't take student loans out to pay for housing (at least, I want allowed to). And there was no one to help (you can have everything in order and then the rug gets pulled.....). So, my grades were ok but not good enough for those great scholarships that I needed. 20 years later, I'm close to the top of my field so I doubt I didn't know my stuff. I just had a lot that interfered with hows of study needed.
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 7, 2019 11:52:57 GMT -5
My son in law is Indian, he was telling me that when he was in school everthing is geared to math and science. You are either an engineer or a doctor all other fields are considered screw off courses. Statistics on Indian Higher EducationDang, can't get chart to appear. So I will type it. Top 4 fields of study 37% Arts 19% Science 18% Commerce & Management 16% Engineering & Technology So either over half are screwing off or your son in law is a bit biased. What did he study? Well that looks like 53% math and science to me... and most everything else being called ‘arts’ is a connotation...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 7, 2019 11:55:28 GMT -5
I come from a place of money and education, and I benefitted from that greatly. In college (1990) I was challenged to think about affirmative action, and I have been thinking about it ever since. 30 years later, I'm still stumped. Until there is some parity of economic achievement, we should keep working. But, what is the most effective methods?
I am 100% sure there was a smarter or harder (or both) person than me who didn't come up through the place I did, so they didn't go to college and I did. And they didn't become an executive, but I did. Is that fair? Is that merit? I got in because I went to the right high school, and my parents forced me through the whole process and paid cash money for my tuition. I was also pre-programmed to be part of a business office scenario. If I had been born into another type of family, there is no way I would have gotten through college, nor would have I made it through my first few years of my career. It wasn't merit, it was culture.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 7, 2019 12:16:01 GMT -5
Statistics on Indian Higher EducationDang, can't get chart to appear. So I will type it. Top 4 fields of study 37% Arts 19% Science 18% Commerce & Management 16% Engineering & Technology ... Well that looks like 53% math and science to me... ... Hmmmm?
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Apr 7, 2019 12:22:58 GMT -5
Statistics on Indian Higher EducationDang, can't get chart to appear. So I will type it. Top 4 fields of study 37% Arts 19% Science 18% Commerce & Management 16% Engineering & Technology So either over half are screwing off or your son in law is a bit biased. What did he study? Well that looks like 53% math and science to me... and most everything else being called ‘arts’ is a connotation... Interesting how we interpret categories differently. I wouldn't lump Commerce and Management into math & science. Thinking about it, I realized it's due to the way my HS tracked us (in the 80s) - those deemed not college material got "business classes", as they'd likely go directly to working after HS, and the college track students were steered to more science and math, computers, honors classes. Later, in college, again there were two big divisions - the School of Arts & Sciences, vs the School of Business. There were science major versions of, say calculus, vs business versions. The business versions were always considered dumbed down (the science version would qualify to replace the business version, but not the reverse).
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 7, 2019 13:23:34 GMT -5
I come from a place of money and education, and I benefitted from that greatly. In college (1990) I was challenged to think about affirmative action, and I have been thinking about it ever since. 30 years later, I'm still stumped. Until there is some parity of economic achievement, we should keep working. But, what is the most effective methods? I am 100% sure there was a smarter or harder (or both) person than me who didn't come up through the place I did, so they didn't go to college and I did. And they didn't become an executive, but I did. Is that fair? Is that merit? I got in because I went to the right high school, and my parents forced me through the whole process and paid cash money for my tuition. I was also pre-programmed to be part of a business office scenario. If I had been born into another type of family, there is no way I would have gotten through college, nor would have I made it through my first few years of my career. It wasn't merit, it was culture. My life was the polar opposite of your. I lived in poverty and barely passed high school. My mom was too busy living her life to worry about mine. Plus she only had a high school education and never really worked as she got married at 19. Reality hit me when I graduated high school and realized if I didn’t get my shit together my kids would be living my childhood and there was no way I was going to let that happen Finished college 2 years later than my peers and mommy tracked myself for many years but still managed to become an executive in my early 40s. Culture didn’t get me there, ambition and drive did. I guess revolting against the culture I was raised in got me there But many of the people that lived in the government housing with me are now in their 40s and still living in poverty. They had the same choices in life that I did. But you have to want to overcome your circumstances. I wanted it very badly while others must not have wanted it as badly. They chose to repeat their mothers mistakes, instead of learning from them
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 7, 2019 13:27:26 GMT -5
To me, the bigger question is why does the Asian population do so well? I did not listen to the podcast but I saw nothing in the article to indicate that every Asian that got in was wealthy and benefited from extra help. Asians value education and the kids are pushed to excel. If they earned the scores over whites or blacks then they deserve the spots. Maybe instead of trying to take away spots from Asians, whites and blacks should adjust their cultures to prioritized education Let's say your kiddo was at a lesson. Let's say your kiddo was crying because they were physically ill. We'll also assume that the kiddo does not fake illness. Would you make them continue? Because pushing is good? Sorry. This white mom won't push her kids to go to school/lessons at all costs-including making them go to school while they have the flu and strep.
What about the Asian population that is just simply motivated? One of my old clients got into an Ivy League School. Her mom would tell me that she wished her daughter wouldn't put so much pressure on herself to succeed, wished she'd slow down and be a bit more of a normal kid, etc.
ETA: You do also realize that education is also influenced by politics. And that Repubs, generally, have demonized being educated, right? Please back up your statement that republicans demonize being educated. You are supporting what I said. The Asians prioritize education over everything. It is their culture. I don’t agree with because I believe in a balanced life. But I’m also not one saying it isn’t fair that Asians have a higher representation in merit based selections. They’ve earned it. To take that away from them because other cultures don’t want to work as hard is not fair to those busting their ass
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Apr 7, 2019 13:46:16 GMT -5
What if it were merit PLUS need?
If you excel academically and have economic need you earn scholarships. If you don't excel, others deserve it more than you do. By the same token, if you don't need scholarships to be able to pursue a degree, others deserve it more than you do.
IDK, my scholarship didn't let me double dip. It was for tuition only, I had to come up with my own money for R&B. Also required that I apply for federal and state need based grants. Those were subtracted from my scholarship, reducing the amount the school credited me with. They would estimate the amounts of the federal/state grants, always incorrectly, and "adjust" my scholarship so I was short. Every year I had to fight to get it adjusted properly to cover tuition fully. No cash back; hell, it would have been nice to have been able to use the grants toward R&B instead of taking loans.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Apr 7, 2019 14:01:12 GMT -5
I find it interesting that somewhere along the way articles/studies talking about education level, wealth accumulation and income levels in the US went from grouping by Caucasian, Asian, Latino, Black, etc. to Caucasian/Asian, Latino, Black, etc. One group has somewhat quietly moved up and unsurprisingly depending on what you read that doesn't get much mention because it doesn't get as much interest as pointing out how groups at the bottom are somehow disadvantaged. Based on some of the research Asians have passed Caucasians and to that I say good for them because they accomplished it through hard work and earned it. I live in an area that has a decent Asian population and in high school in my AP classes almost half of the kids were Asian. Their families definitely prioritized education and it paid off.
As to merit vs. need based I'm fine with things that are completely merit based being left alone. If the richest kid in the world also happens to be extremely hard working and earns his or her grades then they should be rewarded for it if they're the best or one of the best.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 7, 2019 14:19:03 GMT -5
I come from a place of money and education, and I benefitted from that greatly. In college (1990) I was challenged to think about affirmative action, and I have been thinking about it ever since. 30 years later, I'm still stumped. Until there is some parity of economic achievement, we should keep working. But, what is the most effective methods? I am 100% sure there was a smarter or harder (or both) person than me who didn't come up through the place I did, so they didn't go to college and I did. And they didn't become an executive, but I did. Is that fair? Is that merit? I got in because I went to the right high school, and my parents forced me through the whole process and paid cash money for my tuition. I was also pre-programmed to be part of a business office scenario. If I had been born into another type of family, there is no way I would have gotten through college, nor would have I made it through my first few years of my career. It wasn't merit, it was culture. I’m not sure that parity of economic achievement is a viable expectation. Achievement is a function of a combination of native intelligence, motivation, tenacity, social skills, and a variety of other personal attributes. I don’t believe that you can train people to have a consistent level of these attributes. What I do think is viable is to work to provide parity of opportunity. Given equal opportunity, the achievement, economic and otherwise, becomes a function of personal attributes each individual demonstrates. Lazy, unambitious people would be likely to attain lower levels of achievement than highly motivated individuals who exhibit the tenacity to overcome challenges.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Apr 7, 2019 16:26:06 GMT -5
To me, the bigger question is why does the Asian population do so well? I read an article about this - a big factor is 'language'. The Asian language families are more suitable for mathematics. Eg, some regions in Asia speak tonal languages - the people there have perfect pitch, it is a learned metric. Math is similar, Asia languages are like series of mathematical equations - when that is your first language, learning math in Asia from an Asian teacher is natural.
Conversely, Americans learn math by converting the spoken word into math. It is not a natural conversion. Additionally, since math is the major basis for most types of logic, Asian students are able to apply their math skills to many other fields.
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oped
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Post by oped on Apr 7, 2019 16:41:38 GMT -5
To me, the bigger question is why does the Asian population do so well? I read an article about this - a big factor is 'language'. The Asian language families are more suitable for mathematics. Eg, some regions in Asia speak tonal languages - the people there have perfect pitch, it is a learned metric. Math is similar, Asia languages are like series of mathematical equations - when that is your first language, learning math in Asia from an Asian teacher is natural.
Conversely, Americans learn math by converting the spoken word into math. It is not a natural conversion. Additionally, since math is the major basis for most types of logic, Asian students are able to apply their math skills to many other fields.
I find this very interesting. I wonder how English being so innately convoluted and exception based influences this. I can see some research in my future. But i need to start my blog this week.... grrrr.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Apr 7, 2019 16:44:06 GMT -5
To me, the bigger question is why does the Asian population do so well? I did not listen to the podcast but I saw nothing in the article to indicate that every Asian that got in was wealthy and benefited from extra help. Asians value education and the kids are pushed to excel. If they earned the scores over whites or blacks then they deserve the spots. Maybe instead of trying to take away spots from Asians, whites and blacks should adjust their cultures to prioritized education
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Apr 7, 2019 20:21:15 GMT -5
Admittance should be based on merit. Financial aid should be both need and merit based. Colleges use merit based scholarships to raise their academic demographics.
Both GA and FL have merit based scholarships based on high school gpa and SAT/ACT scores. Both states have raised their academic requirements at their flagship universities. When I started college, admittance to UGA and UF was pretty easy, you could get in with 1000 SAT. Now you need close to 1400.
All 3 of my kids went to college with merit based scholarships. Two had Hope scholarship in GA, and one went to a school in Alabama (even though we lived in GA at the time). All had to keep gpa at 3.0 to have it renewed, and they all did.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 7, 2019 21:22:34 GMT -5
I come from a place of money and education, and I benefitted from that greatly. In college (1990) I was challenged to think about affirmative action, and I have been thinking about it ever since. 30 years later, I'm still stumped. Until there is some parity of economic achievement, we should keep working. But, what is the most effective methods? I am 100% sure there was a smarter or harder (or both) person than me who didn't come up through the place I did, so they didn't go to college and I did. And they didn't become an executive, but I did. Is that fair? Is that merit? I got in because I went to the right high school, and my parents forced me through the whole process and paid cash money for my tuition. I was also pre-programmed to be part of a business office scenario. If I had been born into another type of family, there is no way I would have gotten through college, nor would have I made it through my first few years of my career. It wasn't merit, it was culture. My life was the polar opposite of your. I lived in poverty and barely passed high school. My mom was too busy living her life to worry about mine. Plus she only had a high school education and never really worked as she got married at 19. Reality hit me when I graduated high school and realized if I didn’t get my shit together my kids would be living my childhood and there was no way I was going to let that happen Finished college 2 years later than my peers and mommy tracked myself for many years but still managed to become an executive in my early 40s. Culture didn’t get me there, ambition and drive did. I guess revolting against the culture I was raised in got me there But many of the people that lived in the government housing with me are now in their 40s and still living in poverty. They had the same choices in life that I did. But you have to want to overcome your circumstances. I wanted it very badly while others must not have wanted it as badly. They chose to repeat their mothers mistakes, instead of learning from them You are definitely not the average story. I find you quite extraordinary, and am continually impressed with your self-motivation and achievement. I believe more people could have a story closer to yours, but there has to be some kind of help or education or something that would help more people understand what they could do. Or something. I really dont know the answer. Our system has been lopsided forever, and has gotten more lopsided over the past 40 years. Not impossible, but I feel like we are moving in the wrong direction.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 8, 2019 11:58:39 GMT -5
I wish we could track smart kids or ones with potential but shit backgrounds so you know it’s going to be hard for them to succeed and get them away from the crabs that pull them back down into their bucket. My reason for the last 40 years of failure to overcome the poverty mentality isn’t PC.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 8, 2019 14:55:20 GMT -5
Unless parents are paying for that ‘merit’... Even when it doesn’t rise to the level of cheating. How much of merit is hard work and how much of it is exposure and supplemental programming? Do you think kids with all the disadvantages don’t work just as hard if not harder to attain what they do than those who start with all the advantages? Merit can’t just be assessment of an end point, until the starting and checkpoints are all equal. This all sounds nice in theory, it just doesn't hold up in the real world. As an example...if you needed life-saving surgery...what doctor would you want to work on you? This is a merit decision, you are judging their quality as a surgeon. One who worked really hard but started with so many disadvantages that they have no idea what they are doing? Or one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and is an expert? Merit is not a judgement of who works hardest...it's a judgment of something measurable (in many cases of education, academic achievement). Someone may have worked REALLY hard just to get to the point they can read and not do much else academically. Someone else may have worked an average level to get themselves to the point they have great understanding of chemistry. If I have to invest $200k into a student to create a chemical engineer...I'm thinking about where my money is going to give me the best opportunity to get the end-result I'm looking for. It's not the merit of "are you a good person", it's the merit of "what have you achieved".
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 8, 2019 15:13:57 GMT -5
... As an example...if you needed life-saving surgery...what doctor would you want to work on you? This is a merit decision, you are judging their quality as a surgeon. One who worked really hard but started with so many disadvantages that they have no idea what they are doing? Or one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and is an expert? ... I want the one that although they started with many disadvantages, they worked really hard, and became an expert. Not the one who started with lots of advantages, worked moderately, and continues to only work moderately.
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