Feds Force Free Speech?

[billisonboard]

But perhaps the more pressing legal problem is, who decides when a college or university is not adequately supporting free speech? Who determines when colleges and universities are complying with the First Amendment? The Trump administration has been conspicuously silent on how the executive order will be enforced. Presumably the answer is that a representative from the federal government will be making these determinations. Hence the executive order could introduce a new level of federal government intrusion and regulation onto colleges and universities. link

[Deleted]

Mar 23, 2019 10:45:37 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

But perhaps the more pressing legal problem is, who decides when a college or university is not adequately supporting free speech? Who determines when colleges and universities are complying with the First Amendment? The Trump administration has been conspicuously silent on how the executive order will be enforced. Presumably the answer is that a representative from the federal government will be making these determinations. Hence the executive order could introduce a new level of federal government intrusion and regulation onto colleges and universities. link

The First amendment is important.

It would be a response to the intrusion and regulation of the First Amendment by colleges.

[billisonboard]

Mar 23, 2019 11:58:17 GMT -5 @x said:

...
The First amendment is important.

It would be a response to the intrusion and regulation of the First Amendment by colleges.

I like the confidence you express in the federal government.

[Deleted]

Mar 23, 2019 12:32:21 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 23, 2019 11:58:17 GMT -5 @x said:

...
The First amendment is important.

It would be a response to the intrusion and regulation of the First Amendment by colleges.

I like the confidence you express in the federal government.

I actually expect not much to come of this.

More like something to campaign on for Trump.

He'll be saving free speech or something like that.

[happyhoix]

Glad that Trump is spending time focusing on the really important matters, like providing low cost, quality healthcare to everyone, fixing the trade imbalance that's gotten so much worse since he took office, and ensuring that far right antagonists have a chance to speak on liberal campuses.

[NastyWoman]

Mar 23, 2019 11:58:17 GMT -5 @x said:

Mar 23, 2019 10:45:37 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

But perhaps the more pressing legal problem is, who decides when a college or university is not adequately supporting free speech? Who determines when colleges and universities are complying with the First Amendment? The Trump administration has been conspicuously silent on how the executive order will be enforced. Presumably the answer is that a representative from the federal government will be making these determinations. Hence the executive order could introduce a new level of federal government intrusion and regulation onto colleges and universities. link

The First amendment is important.

It would be a response to the intrusion and regulation of the First Amendment by colleges.

Free speech is not without its limits. The age-old you can't shout fire in a theater comes to mind.  Similarly, schools can claim safety issues if certain individuals are to hold rallies on their campuses. If this really is to "protect free speech" dt needs to put his money where his mouth is and guarantee that schools wil get promptly reimbursed by the  federal government for additional any security measures that need to be put in place. 

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2019 10:45:37 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

But perhaps the more pressing legal problem is, who decides when a college or university is not adequately supporting free speech? Who determines when colleges and universities are complying with the First Amendment? The Trump administration has been conspicuously silent on how the executive order will be enforced. Presumably the answer is that a representative from the federal government will be making these determinations. Hence the executive order could introduce a new level of federal government intrusion and regulation onto colleges and universities. link

the first amendment is not there to protect us against "colleges and universities".

it is there to protect us against governmental overreach.

i think this is a misapplication of free speech.

[billisonboard]

Mar 25, 2019 13:53:06 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 23, 2019 10:45:37 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

But perhaps the more pressing legal problem is, who decides when a college or university is not adequately supporting free speech? Who determines when colleges and universities are complying with the First Amendment? The Trump administration has been conspicuously silent on how the executive order will be enforced. Presumably the answer is that a representative from the federal government will be making these determinations. Hence the executive order could introduce a new level of federal government intrusion and regulation onto colleges and universities. link

the first amendment is not there to protect us against "colleges and universities".

it is there to protect us against governmental overreach.

i think this is a misapplication of free speech.

Disagree. Many, though not all, colleges and universities are government agents. My concern is having the executive branch being the adjudicator.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 25, 2019 14:05:48 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 25, 2019 13:53:06 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the first amendment is not there to protect us against "colleges and universities".

it is there to protect us against governmental overreach.

i think this is a misapplication of free speech.

Disagree. Many, though not all, colleges and universities are government agents. My concern is having the executive branch being the adjudicator.

i disagree that they are "government agents" in any meaningful sense of the term.

the 1st Amendment is FEDERAL law.  there are no federal schools.

but i also fundamentally disagree that schools are practicing censorship.  if you think they do, provide examples, and we can discuss it.

edit: i will add one further point.  having the Federal Government DEFEND free speech rights is rather like hiring NAMBLA to advocate for young men.  the 1st Amendment is to allow a means for CITIZENS to defend themselves AGAINT the Federal Government.  so, as usual, Trump has the concept completely backwards.

[thyme4change]

Will his EO protect certain news outlets from investigations and badgering?

[Tennesseer]

I wonder how colleges like Liberty University and other conservative/Christian schools will handle it. 

Heck-how would Trump University have handled it. 

[djAdvocate]

Mar 25, 2019 16:35:20 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I wonder how colleges like Liberty University and other conservative/Christian schools will handle it. 

Heck-how would Trump University have handled it. 

private schools have no free speech rights/obligations whatsoever.

[Tennesseer]

Mar 25, 2019 16:37:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 25, 2019 16:35:20 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I wonder how colleges like Liberty University and other conservative/Christian schools will handle it. 

Heck-how would Trump University have handled it. 

private schools have no free speech rights/obligations whatsoever.

What a shame.

From a June, 2018 article:

Even as a private institution, Liberty students receive more than $772 million in federal funds. They receive so much in taxpayer-funded Pell Grants, veterans benefits, and subsidized loans that of all universities nationwide, Liberty ranks sixth for the most federal financial aid received. In fact, according to The New York Times, the majority of Liberty’s total revenue comes from the government—so at some point, it’s fair to question how much latitude to discriminate Liberty should be given.

‘Liberty’ University? When It Comes to Free Speech, It’s Anything But.

[dondub]

Once again the lack of separation of church and state rears it's ugly head.

[billisonboard]

Mar 25, 2019 15:22:04 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

... the 1st Amendment is FEDERAL law.  there are no federal schools. ...

the 14th Amendment is FEDERAL law. There are no federal elections.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 25, 2019 18:47:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 25, 2019 15:22:04 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

... the 1st Amendment is FEDERAL law.  there are no federal schools. ...

the 14th Amendment is FEDERAL law. There are no federal elections.

You might also want to send him the FIRE active list of disinvited speakers and active list of banned discussion topics. They keep pretty good records.

The real censorship is in professors getting passed over for tenure (or simply canned), students being flunked, and student societies being bullied into silence for expressing politically incorrect views. But this is a diffuse phenomenon documented over thousands of sites and testimonials, not just one or two.

Anyone who's done any significant CE research--on anything--over the past five years and hasn't come across the issue at least half a dozen times is pretty damn blinkered.

On a more miraculous note: I agree with your position in this thread. Governments cracking down on anti-free-speech campuses is a good prima facie theory, but I shudder to think what it would look like in actual implementation. Not to mention it would be the government shoving yet more anti-discrimination laws down the public's throat in vain attempts to police what people think. If there's a solution to campus censorship, government ain't it.

[billisonboard]

Mar 25, 2019 21:14:36 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 25, 2019 18:47:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

the 14th Amendment is FEDERAL law. There are no federal elections.

You might also want to ...

I might but don't.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 25, 2019 18:47:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 25, 2019 15:22:04 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

... the 1st Amendment is FEDERAL law.  there are no federal schools. ...

the 14th Amendment is FEDERAL law. There are no federal elections.

thought we were talking about the bill of rights. my error.

[billisonboard]

Mar 25, 2019 23:27:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 25, 2019 18:47:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

the 14th Amendment is FEDERAL law. There are no federal elections.

thought we were talking about the bill of rights. my error.

Is there a legal difference between the first ten amendments and subsequent amendments?

[djAdvocate]

Mar 25, 2019 23:33:13 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 25, 2019 23:27:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

thought we were talking about the bill of rights. my error.

Is there a legal difference between the first ten amendments and subsequent amendments?

imo, yes.

the bill of rights was developed from the anti-federalist papers.

it is more topic than I have time for, however.

[Deleted]

Mar 25, 2019 13:08:41 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Mar 23, 2019 11:58:17 GMT -5 @x said:

The First amendment is important.

It would be a response to the intrusion and regulation of the First Amendment by colleges.

Free speech is not without its limits. The age-old you can't shout fire in a theater comes to mind.  Similarly, schools can claim safety issues if certain individuals are to hold rallies on their campuses. If this really is to "protect free speech" dt needs to put his money where his mouth is and guarantee that schools wil get promptly reimbursed by the  federal government for additional any security measures that need to be put in place. 

That money will be going for medical care for the illegals/refugees crossing our southern border.

Colleges are flush with money, they can pay for their own security.

[billisonboard]

Mar 26, 2019 9:12:07 GMT -5 @x said:

Mar 25, 2019 13:08:41 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Free speech ...

... illegals/refugees crossing our southern border.

...

As my ex-wife used to say, "How about them Mariners."

[Tennesseer]

Mar 25, 2019 16:37:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 25, 2019 16:35:20 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I wonder how colleges like Liberty University and other conservative/Christian schools will handle it. 

Heck-how would Trump University have handled it. 

private schools have no free speech rights/obligations whatsoever.

What if the school is the sole owner of a side business which received a government contract? 

Liberty University landed Pentagon contract after inauguration: report

A company owned by Liberty University won a jet fuel contract with the Pentagon, its first such contract, within months of President Trump’s inauguration, according to The Daily Beast.

The Defense Department signed a contract to buy jet fuel from Freedom Aviation, which is wholly owned by the university, in May 2017, according to the publication, and has since bought more than $400,000 worth of fuel from the company.

Freedom Aviation owns six planes, which it maintains at the university’s Lynchburg, Va., flight school. It provides both charter flights and private aircraft used by the university’s president, Jerry Falwell Jr. The Trump campaign reportedly paid the company more than $19,000 in air travel expenses in 2016 after Falwell endorsed Trump.

The value of the award itself is $889,087, according to the contract. Its last date to order is listed as March 30, 2021.

Complete article here: Liberty University landed Pentagon contract after inauguration: report

[NastyWoman]

Mar 28, 2019 14:40:03 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Mar 25, 2019 16:37:36 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

private schools have no free speech rights/obligations whatsoever.

What if the school is the sole owner of a side business which received a government contract? 

Liberty University landed Pentagon contract after inauguration: report

A company owned by Liberty University won a jet fuel contract with the Pentagon, its first such contract, within months of President Trump’s inauguration, according to The Daily Beast.

The Defense Department signed a contract to buy jet fuel from Freedom Aviation, which is wholly owned by the university, in May 2017, according to the publication, and has since bought more than $400,000 worth of fuel from the company.

Freedom Aviation owns six planes, which it maintains at the university’s Lynchburg, Va., flight school. It provides both charter flights and private aircraft used by the university’s president, Jerry Falwell Jr. The Trump campaign reportedly paid the company more than $19,000 in air travel expenses in 2016 after Falwell endorsed Trump.

The value of the award itself is $889,087, according to the contract. Its last date to order is listed as March 30, 2021.

Complete article here: Liberty University landed Pentagon contract after inauguration: report

So they entered into an LTPA and have since proceeded to use up ~45% of the maimum amount ($400k out of $889k). Will be interesting to see if they manage to amend the contract to increase the maximum funding level before the next elections