Excellent students rejected by *top* colleges: class action

[Rukh O'Rorke]

www-m.cnn.com/2019/03/14/us/college-admissions-scheme-lawsuit-class-action/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Interesting but not too surprising of a development.

[justme]

I think they're going after the wrong people - not that I think they'd have a case against someone else. From all I've seen the FBI says the schools had no knowledge that the fraud was going on. And it's no secret that athletes get special consideration for admission as their athletic talents bring something to the school. UCLA is a public school and I think California has some guaranteed acceptance thing for residents (I know Florida and Texas do) so a huge percentage of who they accept will be in-state and she was not. You also aren't admitted on just test scores and grades (most colleges are moving away from test scores being a huge factor), and considering she had to be hospitalized upon rejection I wonder if she was a well-rounded applicant or only was focused on grades & scores. 

[gs11rmb]

Having to be hospitalized because of a college rejection is bizarre.  I don't think this woman was very stable.

[TheOtherMe]

Mar 15, 2019 11:00:00 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Having to be hospitalized because of a college rejection is bizarre.  I don't think this woman was very stable.

Emotional breakdown

To me, this is a bit extreme over not get in to your dream college.  Not every person who applies gets accepted.

[Deleted]

Mar 15, 2019 11:26:54 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Mar 15, 2019 11:00:00 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Having to be hospitalized because of a college rejection is bizarre.  I don't think this woman was very stable.

Emotional breakdown

To me, this is a bit extreme over not get in to your dream college.  Not every person who applies gets accepted.

Yeah.  Something like 85% of the people that apply to UCLA don't get in.  I don't think she was emotionally ready for college anyhow.  

[souldoubt]

Seems like a money grab to me.  I can't imagine you could ever prove you were the top applicant that didn't get in and that you were directly impacted by the scam.  

As far as anyone having a breakdown over not getting into college sounds like someone who was given too many participation trophies growing up and/or is wound way too tight.  

[Tennesseer]

Mar 15, 2019 11:00:00 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Having to be hospitalized because of a college rejection is bizarre.  I don't think this woman was very stable.

Glad to see it wasn't just me who thought that.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Mar 15, 2019 13:36:43 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

Seems like a money grab to me.  I can't imagine you could ever prove you were the top applicant that didn't get in and that you were directly impacted by the scam.  

As far as anyone having a breakdown over not getting into college sounds like someone who was given too many participation trophies growing up and/or is wound way too tight.  

the college records would indicate if that is the case.

The person starting this suit has a 4.0 gpa and a 34 ACT score. Colleges routinely publish the averages of such metrics for their incoming freshman of a given year.

So if the average ACT of admitted students is a 32, and hers is 34 - that is an indication of something.

[oped]

Mar 15, 2019 16:06:33 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Mar 15, 2019 13:36:43 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

Seems like a money grab to me.  I can't imagine you could ever prove you were the top applicant that didn't get in and that you were directly impacted by the scam.  

As far as anyone having a breakdown over not getting into college sounds like someone who was given too many participation trophies growing up and/or is wound way too tight.  

the college records would indicate if that is the case.

The person starting this suit has a 4.0 gpa and a 34 ACT score. Colleges routinely publish the averages of such metrics for their incoming freshman of a given year.

So if the average ACT of admitted students is a 32, and hers is 34 - that is an indication of something.

Average is that. And scores are not the only criteria. Still wouldn’t prove anything.

[alabamagal]

Well some competitive colleges have people that are wait listed. Then after they get the number that send in deposit to enroll, they may admit some off the wait list - this is how it is at UGA. If any of the colleges in the scandal used this policy, and a student was wait listed, and didn’t get offered admission, you might have a case that you were close.

[souldoubt]

Even schools not involved in this scandal have tens of thousands of kids that apply each year.  I did a quick search and the state school I went to had over 60,000 freshmen applications in the most recent term and over 100,000 once you include transfer applications.  In total less than 8.5% of those who applied were accepted.  There's going to be quite a few kids that don't get in who scored higher than the average score of freshmen who got in.  Things like extra curricular activities, major/program and other factors come into play.  If a wait list ranks first in if someone declines then that seems like a case but if it's a pool of applicants it's hard to prove who is next and really got screwed.  That said I guess that's what a class action lawsuit is for.  I'm sure whoever has filed the lawsuit will reach out to anyone and everyone involved to further their case and make it more likely there's a settlement.  Reminds me of the early jobs I worked where you get a notice years later saying there's a class action lawsuit because someone sued for having to work through their break and/or work OT without getting paid.  

[NastyWoman]

Just for shit and giggles I looked up freshman applications and acceptance rate for Harvard for 2018 → acceptance rate was 4.59% out if the application pool of 42,742 kids.

I don't think anyone has a real strong case for "I got scr*wed" with those numbers. But what they DID get out of this is a semi-legitimate "without people cheating I might have gotten in claim". Whether they ever would have gotten in, who knows since there are too many variables...

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Mar 15, 2019 16:20:21 GMT -5 oped said:

Mar 15, 2019 16:06:33 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

the college records would indicate if that is the case.

The person starting this suit has a 4.0 gpa and a 34 ACT score. Colleges routinely publish the averages of such metrics for their incoming freshman of a given year.

So if the average ACT of admitted students is a 32, and hers is 34 - that is an indication of something.

Average is that. And scores are not the only criteria. Still wouldn’t prove anything.

It most definitely would prove that the rejected student scored better than the average admitted student. That leads to questions.

I never said scores were everything - and in fact I listed many potential criteria and said there could be others. I used that score only as one criterion that would be apparent to the student from the school's website prior to obtaining any records via a lawsuit.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

And all the colleges have to do is look through their records, take out the 5 admitted students busted on this cheating, and they know exactly who the 5 who would have been admitted in their place are.

This is no mystery.

[NastyWoman]

Mar 15, 2019 17:12:55 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Mar 15, 2019 16:20:21 GMT -5 oped said:

Average is that. And scores are not the only criteria. Still wouldn’t prove anything.

It most definitely would prove that the rejected student scored better than the average admitted student. That leads to questions.

I never said scores were everything - and in fact I listed many potential criteria and said there could be others. I used that score only as one criterion that would be apparent to the student from the school's website prior to obtaining any records via a lawsuit.

I don't know; there are so many other factors (aside from bribes, gifts, legacy) that play into admittance, it may or may not mean anything. There always is a range for these numbers. For 2016 and Harvard I found this information:

"Harvard Admissions Statistics
Harvard’s acceptance rate in 2016 was 5.4%. Out of 39,041 applicants, 2,106 were accepted. The average GPA of admitted applicants was 4.04, the average ACT score was a 34, and the average SAT score was 1540.

For students who took the ACT, the 25th percentile score of successful applicants was a 32, and the 75th percentile ACT score was a 35.

For students who took the SAT, the 25th percentile score was 1480. The 75th percentile score was 1600, and the average score was 1540.

If you’re somewhere in the middle of these numbers, remember that a high test score can compensate for a slightly lower GPA, and vice versa. If you’re at the lower end, it helps if you’re a diverse applicant, the child of an alum, or have incredible personal achievements. Still, at the 25th percentile, your chances of getting in are in the low single digits."

prepexpert.com/harvard-acceptance-rate/

[billisonboard]

Mar 15, 2019 17:20:02 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

And all the colleges have to do is look through their records, take out the 5 admitted students busted on this cheating, and they know exactly who the 5 who would have been admitted in their place are.

This is no mystery.

and grant them the right to transfer in. Done.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Mar 15, 2019 17:29:52 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Mar 15, 2019 17:12:55 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

It most definitely would prove that the rejected student scored better than the average admitted student. That leads to questions.

I never said scores were everything - and in fact I listed many potential criteria and said there could be others. I used that score only as one criterion that would be apparent to the student from the school's website prior to obtaining any records via a lawsuit.

I don't know; there are so many other factors (aside from bribes, gifts, legacy) that play into admittance, it may or may not mean anything. There always is a range for these numbers. For 2016 and Harvard I found this information:

"Harvard Admissions Statistics
Harvard’s acceptance rate in 2016 was 5.4%. Out of 39,041 applicants, 2,106 were accepted. The average GPA of admitted applicants was 4.04, the average ACT score was a 34, and the average SAT score was 1540.

For students who took the ACT, the 25th percentile score of successful applicants was a 32, and the 75th percentile ACT score was a 35.

For students who took the SAT, the 25th percentile score was 1480. The 75th percentile score was 1600, and the average score was 1540.

If you’re somewhere in the middle of these numbers, remember that a high test score can compensate for a slightly lower GPA, and vice versa. If you’re at the lower end, it helps if you’re a diverse applicant, the child of an alum, or have incredible personal achievements. Still, at the 25th percentile, your chances of getting in are in the low single digits."

prepexpert.com/harvard-acceptance-rate/

Yes - there is a range. The school knows how they used each number. No one is eyeballing these things - they have an equation. The boost for diversity is a number, the boost for an alum parent is a number - I'm sure that there may well be multipliers on that boost if the alum parent is super famous or somebody donated to a building or what not. it's all put into a database and the applicants are rank order.

Your grandfather may be best friends with Jeb Bush and get him to call a dean he knows, who contacts the dean of admissions and ask for a favor.

Other than that - it's all quantified. Your incredible person achievement is going to be weighted against everything else in your application materials and the materials of others and it may carry some weight. In some manner, it is quantified.

If personal interviews were conducted, those are going to be quantified.

They may well select some 100 applicants near the cutoff and eyeball those and make consensus decisions. But they are not eyeballing the applications of 100000 students and considering and discussing each one.

The school knows exactly what exceptions they may have made to the quantified ranking and why.

[NastyWoman]

Why is grandfather calling Jeb Bush or mommy being an alumn of the college any less corrupting of the system than daddy paying $0.5M to get his kid in?  What about the help that many applicants get to write the "perfect essay"? The year-long SAT prep course?  You can take that even further; what about the differences in quality of school districts?  That test score may tell you nothing more than how rich in resources the HS the kid came from was.   

Signed,

a mother of two very priviledged sons who scored in the 99% range of the ACT and were not interested in Ivy league schools. Yet both were in the C-suites of their respective companies in their 30s. Only for one of them to realize that he liked coding far more than he liked management → though he has no problems with leading a small team (he is very much an introvert) 

[billisonboard]

Mar 15, 2019 18:03:07 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

... That test score may tell you nothing more than how rich in resources the HS the kid came from was. ...

Not to mention what it means to have the opportunity to even get a grade point average higher than 4.0.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

I'm not arguing in favor of using or not using any particular criteria for admissions.

I'm just telling you how it is not an uncharted mystery and it is impossible to know who may have been denied a spot based on this cheating.

The criteria used is used, exceptions may be made, but for the rank and file it is a simple equation, a rank ordering, and they start accepting at the top of this list. If 5 got in on fraudulent credentials, the 5 who's spot they took are known.

[billisonboard]

Attorney: "Ms. Jones, would you please tell the court why Mary Smith was not admitted, a decision difficult to understand considering her high grade point average and test score."

Ms. Jones: "Yes, I have a copy of a letter here from Mr. Brown, Mary Smith's high school counselor and also one from her Honors English teacher, Ms. Black, that describe Ms. Smith as a total prima donna and that we would rue the day we accepted her to our school."

Attorney:  "The defense rests your honor."

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Mar 15, 2019 18:27:34 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Attorney: "Ms. Jones, would you please tell the court why Mary Smith was not admitted, a decision difficult to understand considering her high grade point average and test score."

Ms. Jones: "Yes, I have a copy of a letter here from Mr. Brown, Mary Smith's high school counselor and also one from her Honors English teacher, Ms. Black, that describe Ms. Smith as a total prima donna and that we would rue the day we accepted her to our school."

Attorney:  "The defense rests your honor."

now the HS is going to get sued!

[Deleted]

Mar 15, 2019 18:27:34 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Attorney: "Ms. Jones, would you please tell the court why Mary Smith was not admitted, a decision difficult to understand considering her high grade point average and test score."

Ms. Jones: "Yes, I have a copy of a letter here from Mr. Brown, Mary Smith's high school counselor and also one from her Honors English teacher, Ms. Black, that describe Ms. Smith as a total prima donna and that we would rue the day we accepted her to our school."

Attorney:  "The defense rests your honor."

That won't happen.  Every recommendation form that I am asked assures me that my response is confidential and will not be shown to either student or parent.

I would be the one filing a lawsuit again the university if they released it.  I cannot picture a judge overturning that assurance since no one would ever give an honest recommendation if they did.

However, teachers don't really provide references like the one above.  If you can't be positive about the student, you just decline.  It isn't a part of your job to do this.  No one is going to force you to write a good reference for a student that you don't think deserves it.  The kid will find someone who can or find another avenue to college.  

[Rukh O'Rorke]

and the other thing is that although the colleges admissions process is supposed to meritocratic - it is not meant to be a reward, or a placement is earned via the previous accomplishments.

they are running prediction equations. they input variables that may influence success in college, and in that particular college, and success as a graduate of that college, with the highest chance of adding laurels to their reputation. They are looking to enhance their standing, not reward past achievement.

Recently - social equity and diversity issues have been incorporated into those equations - but they are still looking to admit those people most likely to enhance their future rep as an elite institution.