Suppose it goes on the political site

[countrygirl2]

You know I wonder how long the veneer of civility will be retained.  I'm starting to notice in our rural town things I've never heard and seen before.  Am I more observant, or are people more willing to share personal info then they used to be.


In the last couple of months I'm seeing things change.  Was in Walmart, lady working in fabrics was telling me she was 80 years old.  She said I never saw myself working at 80, she did look good.  The conversation had started about feet, she saw my brace.  She said she had several surgeries, sounded like she was working partly to pay her insurance, I'm thinking how long can she keep this up.  Is she poor, she had lost her husband I believe so lost his income.  A common problem for women. I guess I'm just seeing this.

Around here I'm seeing children looking hungry, they don't look well.  Hearing bits and pieces about people losing food stamps. Have they cracked down on them more.

A checker today was checking out some turtles I bought, a fair size bag for $10.  I get them and share with hubs at times.  She was saying.  Yeah, I really like them but can't afford to buy them.  What?  I'm guessing she was in her 50's, maybe early 60's.  She didn't say it bitterly or anything, just matter of fact. I can't even imagine not affording something for $10, $50, $100.  Now $500 or $1000 I will give pause to spending, but we can if we want.  Am I just now starting to see this divide?  Credit cards made us more equal but I'm guessing a lot of these folks are maxed out or have none.
 
These things are making me think, I'm seeing around here in so called better times people doing worse. You can see it in their clothing, their vehicles, hair, teeth, children. You can hear it more in their conversations, or people picking up foods and saying to their partner, that's to much.  Well at our grocery, its to much for me too, but I can drive elsewhere.  I'm starting to think this is where the pent up hate of the trump supporters is coming from.  However, he is channeling this hate to liberals and dems.  They are so blinded, they don't realize all the things they hate come from the repubs, big business, no social programs, cutting health care, food stamps, less housing, etc.  He has been able to channel all this pent up rage to dems from his groups, while he is cutting everything, and sadly they are to dumb to understand.  I see it locally on face book, people saying he brought all these jobs back from Mexico, I asked where.  That he has fixed NAFTA, I explained congress has not voted on it yet so nothing has changed.  You ask them for examples, they can't give them to you, because they are not there. I was in school with some of those people, they learned little then, they appear to know less now.  Now I see farmers concerned, you should have been all along with someone like him.  

So today, I'm thinking the social veneer is still intact, but its fraying.  Cohen said trump won't go willingly when voted out.  I don't know, hubs says no issue, the military will stop that if they have to.  But will we really have an uprising?  When people have nothing to lose is when those sort of things happen.  Has the divide finally became to wide?  But he has directed the rage to a group that is not responsible for what is happening.  Will we come back together as a country again.  I have to admit, I'm very concerned.  

Yes we are a have, not on the level of billionaires but we still have all we need to meet our needs, so I think that makes us haves.  And we could cut more and more and still have enough.  Of course at some point that I don't think we will reach, it could become bad, but if it did the whole financial system and government would have to fail. Am I just out of it?

[billisonboard]

Mar 5, 2019 16:10:21 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

...

... Am I just out of it?

Yes.

[countrygirl2]

I don't think so.  In these small towns people are more forthcoming, we talk to each other more.  I doubt there is this much openness in the cities.  It wasn't when we lived around one, people to busy to notice or pay attention.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Mar 5, 2019 16:10:21 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

You know I wonder how long the veneer of civility will be retained.  I'm starting to notice in our rural town things I've never heard and seen before.  Am I more observant, or are people more willing to share personal info then they used to be.


In the last couple of months I'm seeing things change.  Was in Walmart, lady working in fabrics was telling me she was 80 years old.  She said I never saw myself working at 80, she did look good.  The conversation had started about feet, she saw my brace.  She said she had several surgeries, sounded like she was working partly to pay her insurance, I'm thinking how long can she keep this up.  Is she poor, she had lost her husband I believe so lost his income.  A common problem for women. I guess I'm just seeing this.

Around here I'm seeing children looking hungry, they don't look well.  Hearing bits and pieces about people losing food stamps. Have they cracked down on them more.

A checker today was checking out some turtles I bought, a fair size bag for $10.  I get them and share with hubs at times.  She was saying.  Yeah, I really like them but can't afford to buy them.  What?  I'm guessing she was in her 50's, maybe early 60's.  She didn't say it bitterly or anything, just matter of fact. I can't even imagine not affording something for $10, $50, $100.  Now $500 or $1000 I will give pause to spending, but we can if we want.  Am I just now starting to see this divide?  Credit cards made us more equal but I'm guessing a lot of these folks are maxed out or have none.
 
These things are making me think, I'm seeing around here in so called better times people doing worse. You can see it in their clothing, their vehicles, hair, teeth, children. You can hear it more in their conversations, or people picking up foods and saying to their partner, that's to much.  Well at our grocery, its to much for me too, but I can drive elsewhere.  I'm starting to think this is where the pent up hate of the trump supporters is coming from.  However, he is channeling this hate to liberals and dems.  They are so blinded, they don't realize all the things they hate come from the repubs, big business, no social programs, cutting health care, food stamps, less housing, etc.  He has been able to channel all this pent up rage to dems from his groups, while he is cutting everything, and sadly they are to dumb to understand.  I see it locally on face book, people saying he brought all these jobs back from Mexico, I asked where.  That he has fixed NAFTA, I explained congress has not voted on it yet so nothing has changed.  You ask them for examples, they can't give them to you, because they are not there. I was in school with some of those people, they learned little then, they appear to know less now.  Now I see farmers concerned, you should have been all along with someone like him.  

So today, I'm thinking the social veneer is still intact, but its fraying.  Cohen said trump won't go willingly when voted out.  I don't know, hubs says no issue, the military will stop that if they have to.  But will we really have an uprising?  When people have nothing to lose is when those sort of things happen.  Has the divide finally became to wide?  But he has directed the rage to a group that is not responsible for what is happening.  Will we come back together as a country again.  I have to admit, I'm very concerned.  

Yes we are a have, not on the level of billionaires but we still have all we need to meet our needs, so I think that makes us haves.  And we could cut more and more and still have enough.  Of course at some point that I don't think we will reach, it could become bad, but if it did the whole financial system and government would have to fail. Am I just out of it?

I think you are too.  When I was working and making $60K, I'd think twice about buying a $10 bag of turtles, and likely would not.   I could afford it, I was not 'maxed out'.  I had other things I wanted to spend that $10 on.  It's the same reason why if I go to Starbucks, I can't think of the last time I bought anything other than a drip coffee (and even now, only if I need a caffeine fix in the middle of the day and I'm not home).  I can afford it, I just don't want to pay for it.   

[Tennesseer]

countrygirl2-I am wondering if the folks and other things you are seeing in your area are trump supporters.  Those same folks who said Obamacare was bad for America but the Affordable Care Act was good for our country.

[countrygirl2]

Oh yes, I'm sure they are.  This county was prosperous and strongly democrat in a repub state.  It was heavily union and people made good money, had pensions, nice homes.  As Indiana goes more republican its getting poorer and poorer.  When they enacted the right  to work law a couple of years ago that sealed it and made it go on the race to the bottom faster and faster.  I wished I had realized, would have likely thought twice about coming back.  Now they gave farmers a huge tax break on property taxes here, and this will only be year 2 of 5 years of reductions, the towns are already running out of money.  Guess what property owners are going to make up the difference. I think farmers here are starting to hurt from the tariffs.  Here farm land for sale and I me excellent productive farmland here was not on the market long.  I see a lot now sitting,  isn't selling and they are starting to auction it.  That's not a good sign.  If trumps tariffs hang on much longer we will see more and more of that.  I am seeing tons of grain at the elevators under tarps here.  I did see some being loaded at one facility the other day, first time this year.

[busymom]

Thanks for starting this thread, because there ARE difficult questions that we need to start asking ourselves.


Here, in my new home state, it's obvious one of my neighbors wasn't born in this country.  He frequently gets confronted in public, & is told to "go home".  WTE?!?  Whatever happened to being civil, or just plain minding your own business.  For one thing, he is a good neighbor, helpful and all, and fortunately for the folks who walk right up to him and act nasty, he is mild-mannered.  Also, where I grew up, you wouldn't DARE walk up to a complete stranger and start spouting off nonsense like "leave".  It'd be a good way to get punched.  Why do complete strangers feel entitled to walk up to other people, & tell them they don't belong here?  I do feel the lack of civility could escalate over time, & lead to real problems, and I'm not talking about the occasional crazy that you sometimes see on Facebook.

[OldCoyote]

Mar 5, 2019 21:54:46 GMT -5 busymom said:

Thanks for starting this thread, because there ARE difficult questions that we need to start asking ourselves.


Here, in my new home state, it's obvious one of my neighbors wasn't born in this country.  He frequently gets confronted in public, & is told to "go home".  WTE?!?  Whatever happened to being civil, or just plain minding your own business.  For one thing, he is a good neighbor, helpful and all, and fortunately for the folks who walk right up to him and act nasty, he is mild-mannered.  Also, where I grew up, you wouldn't DARE walk up to a complete stranger and start spouting off nonsense like "leave".  It'd be a good way to get punched.  Why do complete strangers feel entitled to walk up to other people, & tell them they don't belong here?  I do feel the lack of civility could escalate over time, & lead to real problems, and I'm not talking about the occasional crazy that you sometimes see on Facebook.

If they are complete strangers, how would they know about this person??

[busymom]

Mar 5, 2019 22:11:11 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Mar 5, 2019 21:54:46 GMT -5 busymom said:

Thanks for starting this thread, because there ARE difficult questions that we need to start asking ourselves.


Here, in my new home state, it's obvious one of my neighbors wasn't born in this country.  He frequently gets confronted in public, & is told to "go home".  WTE?!?  Whatever happened to being civil, or just plain minding your own business.  For one thing, he is a good neighbor, helpful and all, and fortunately for the folks who walk right up to him and act nasty, he is mild-mannered.  Also, where I grew up, you wouldn't DARE walk up to a complete stranger and start spouting off nonsense like "leave".  It'd be a good way to get punched.  Why do complete strangers feel entitled to walk up to other people, & tell them they don't belong here?  I do feel the lack of civility could escalate over time, & lead to real problems, and I'm not talking about the occasional crazy that you sometimes see on Facebook.

If they are complete strangers, how would they know about this person??

     I tried to put it as politely as I could, but he's not white.  Then, if you start a conversation with him, he has an accent.  Soooooo, then he gets people making the comments I've already posted about.  It's ridiculous if you need to watch your back in this country if you happen to not have white skin.

[Value Buy]

Mar 5, 2019 18:56:28 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

Oh yes, I'm sure they are.  This county was prosperous and strongly democrat in a repub state.  It was heavily union and people made good money, had pensions, nice homes.  As Indiana goes more republican its getting poorer and poorer.  When they enacted the right  to work law a couple of years ago that sealed it and made it go on the race to the bottom faster and faster.  I wished I had realized, would have likely thought twice about coming back.  Now they gave farmers a huge tax break on property taxes here, and this will only be year 2 of 5 years of reductions, the towns are already running out of money.  Guess what property owners are going to make up the difference. I think farmers here are starting to hurt from the tariffs.  Here farm land for sale and I me excellent productive farmland here was not on the market long.  I see a lot now sitting,  isn't selling and they are starting to auction it.  That's not a good sign.  If trumps tariffs hang on much longer we will see more and more of that.  I am seeing tons of grain at the elevators under tarps here.  I did see some being loaded at one facility the other day, first time this year.

Unless the town has annexed all the farmland in your township, you do realize farmers do not pay property taxes to the city.
This is apples and oranges comparision in tax rates.
As far as county turning Republican from Democrat that took years, maybe a decade or two to happen. There had to be a reason for this. It is called long term trends and did not happen overnight. You have to ask why did this happen, rather than yell Damn Republicans or Trump.
My residence is in Porter County, on the northwest vcorner of the state. Was basically heavy Republican county until a decade ago. Then mas migration to escape Lake county as well as Illinois residents flooding in for the same reason, changed it to a 50/50 democrat/republican county for the most part, and will trend democratic majority in the next five to ten years.
AS to becoming poor because it turned Republican is not necessarily true. It had to do with Mexico. Japan, and now China setting up cheap labor industry stripping the country of union jobs, and not just your county.

[Value Buy]

Mar 5, 2019 16:22:13 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

I don't think so.  In these small towns people are more forthcoming, we talk to each other more.  I doubt there is this much openness in the cities.  It wasn't when we lived around one, people to busy to notice or pay attention.

And yet you say the area is much more derisive between the people.
Maybe because both sides are now talking openly on their beliefs and you disagree with them, and both sides are becoming more irritated with the other.

[countrygirl2]

It has gone more repub here, have no idea why.  I suppose its because we have lots of farmers and they tend to be.  Many of the more liberal people got a college degree and left.  Lots of folks here with higher education are dems.  It does seem to make a difference.  What amazes me its the ones on welfare, getting food stamps, are railing against immigrants and for the wall.  They don't understand the party they back is trying to take everything away from them what they rely on. They think the dems are, just wow. Hubs and I are amazed by these people.  But then as he said if you only listened to fox news you understand the why, I suppose.  Oh and a big divide is birth control and abortion.  We have gone backwards here 50 to 100 years.  Lot of old time fanatical church people here, the long skirts, long hair, bunch of kids, etc.  Many are poor, I imagine after they give their limited incomes to the churches they will continue to be.

 

[happyhoix]

Mar 6, 2019 13:03:47 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

It has gone more repub here, have no idea why.  I suppose its because we have lots of farmers and they tend to be.  Many of the more liberal people got a college degree and left.  Lots of folks here with higher education are dems.  It does seem to make a difference.  What amazes me its the ones on welfare, getting food stamps, are railing against immigrants and for the wall.  They don't understand the party they back is trying to take everything away from them what they rely on. They think the dems are, just wow. Hubs and I are amazed by these people.  But then as he said if you only listened to fox news you understand the why, I suppose.  Oh and a big divide is birth control and abortion.  We have gone backwards here 50 to 100 years.  Lot of old time fanatical church people here, the long skirts, long hair, bunch of kids, etc.  Many are poor, I imagine after they give their limited incomes to the churches they will continue to be.

 

I live in the heart of the Bible belt, in a rural Southern town (but work in a nearby small city).

I've lived there 20 + years and it's always been very deep GOP. Our local elections are usually races between two GOPer's, often there isn't even a dem candidate running for some of the local offices. Prior to the election, there are always letters to the editor in our local paper stating that good Christians can't vote for Dems because Dems are pro-abortion. There are usually also some letters warning people that you're required to vote straight ticket all GOP or all Dem. (I know that's not right, but it's a myth that persists locally). I've been sitting in church before and had the minister caution his congregation prior to an election that they should not vote for people who are pro-abortion (e.g., the dems).

Trump didn't start this trend, but he cultivates it. It's why he used to be pro-choice for decades, but is not rabidly anti-abortion. That strategy will continue to work in my small town because there's limited opportunities for young adults, so most of them graduate from HS and move someplace less rural, so we have a larger than usual population of older/retired people (who I think tend also to be more religious, and more fearful of 'new' people, especially brown ones).  However, as the rural populations are shrinking in the South, the suburban/urban hubs are expanding, creating larger and larger purple and blue pools that are harder to gerrymander into red districts. I wouldn't be surprised to see our state wide elections start to turn purple in ten years or so.

 

[phil5185]

"""If trumps tariffs hang on much longer we will see more and more of that. I am seeing tons of grain at the elevators under tarps here. I did see some being loaded at one facility the other day, first time this year."""

According to the 'Safe Corn Storage Chart', at 40 degrees stored corn is safe for 288 days.  At 60 degrees it is safe for only 56 days. So, as the weather  breaks, you will see a lot of bushels moving out of storage in the next few weeks.

The cropland in Indy is priced at $8600/ac right now - good stuff, level and fertile. An established 3 or 4 generation farm family, on 500 acres (an average farm) has over $4,000,000 in land.  But they may live in a couple of double-wides - and operate with 20-year-old Combines and tractors.  They will not be selling off 10 or 20 acres to buy a depreciable  piece of machinery - but they ares richer than it may appear. (A new Combine, used for only about 6 weeks/yr, costs about $450,000 - so most farmers will be putting all new chains and belts on their 1995 model).  And buying a new pickup instead.

[phil5185]

"""Of course other people are pro- GOP for more articulated reasons, which often include some or all of the above, but also more of a coherent political philosophy which skews conservative. ""

I'm GOP - and a Trump voter.   Anti-union, pro-corporation (I'm forever surprised at the hate of corps, most people work for a corporation, depend on corps for their livelihood, their healthcare). It's almost as if our history doesn't know when/why we invented corporations and what amazing things they have done for our society. I'm pro-life (you can actually kill fullterm live babies?). I am for safety nets for the less fortunate - but I don't care for the 99 weeks of welfare while they run-out the clock. I am pro-regulation to maintain an orderly society, an orderly financial & banking system (people actually want an orderly society, they just don't realize it). But I am against the gov't over-reach that the Left Extremists propose.  Guns - I like trap guns, skeet guns, pheasant hunting, etc. And I hope someone will invent a viable gun control system - but so far, we get "register guns", ban semi-automatics, ban assault rifles, yada. We have 140 million gunowners, probably all but a few 1000 are normal, safety conscious gun owners - and most proposed laws so far punish only the 140 million and miss the few that we need to curtail? Maybe regional Laws, eg, ban all guns in Chicago where the city streets are shooting ranges after midnight?

[billisonboard]

Mar 6, 2019 17:50:09 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

... It's almost as if our history doesn't know when/why we invented corporations and what amazing things they have done for our society. ...

A rather interesting history:

When American colonists declared independence from England in 1776, they also freed themselves from control by English corporations that extracted their wealth and dominated trade. After fighting a revolution to end this exploitation, our country’s founders retained a healthy fear of corporate power and wisely limited corporations exclusively to a business role. Corporations were forbidden from attempting to influence elections, public policy, and other realms of civic society.

...

For 100 years after the American Revolution, legislators maintained tight control of the corporate chartering process. ...

... As late as 1855 it seemed that the Supreme Court had gotten the people’s message when in Dodge v. Woolsey it reaffirmed state’s powers over “artificial bodies.”

But the men running corporations pressed on. ...

Attempts were made to keep strong charter laws in place, but with the courts applying legal doctrines that made protection of corporations and corporate property the center of constitutional law, citizen sovereignty was undermined. As corporations grew stronger, government and the courts became easier prey. They freely reinterpreted the U.S. Constitution and transformed common law doctrines.

...
Link

[dondub]

 So a pro-business conservative court fucked We The People and went all unconstitutional on our ass. Whodathunkit!?

[phil5185]

""But the men running corporations pressed on. ...""

Yes. Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan, Sears, and others formed many small (eg 40) corporations to avoid giving up 'ownership'. Later, someone devised Trusts as a way to avoid corporations altogether.  The corp giants (named above) were free to merge with no constraints, their companies were far larger (adjusted for inflation) than modern companies (Carnegie built & donated nearly 3000 librairies - Rockefeller & others made similar contributions to atone for their wealth.  The sherman Antitrust Act  (1890) started a series of legislation that whipped corporations into shape, set controls on mergers, size, monopolies, yada.

But my reasons for being pro-corporation is that nearly all things that we've invented - mass production, assembly lines, right sizing, etc - is the result of properly regulated corporations. And probably eveything that you own is made by a corporation. And most of work or have worked in a corporation.  So I have none of the modern "hate all Big Corporations, hate the wealthy." 

But I very much dislike Politices-as-Usual, political-lifers in Congress.  Clueless people who have never made a Payroll making anti-business legislation. The Dodd-Frank Act of 2010 -  22000 pages.  Really? Seems like a few rules to regulate banks could have been handled in say- maybe only 100 pages? Or 1000?  What's that old rule? take the time to brief?  Trumpm OTOH, knows what Businesses want and need - and knows what is needed to provide control.  And so far, I like his policies. (In addition, he saved me $2000 on my Fed Income Taxes -    

Granted, as a GOP,  I'm more interested in Business, the Market, Commerce, Business, Law - than I am in the social issues. So my thoughts don't mesh with the Left - and that's as it should be, we need the debate.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 5, 2019 16:22:13 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

I don't think so.  In these small towns people are more forthcoming, we talk to each other more.  I doubt there is this much openness in the cities.  It wasn't when we lived around one, people to busy to notice or pay attention.

if he won't go willingly, he will go unwillingly. that is fine by me.

it is also fine by th 60%, and I am betting a majority of Trump supporters.

we have a democratic tradition here, and most people are not going to sacrifice it for a favored candidate.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 6, 2019 20:31:05 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

""But the men running corporations pressed on. ...""

Yes. Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan, Sears, and others formed many small (eg 40) corporations to avoid giving up 'ownership'. Later, someone devised Trusts as a way to avoid corporations altogether.  The corp giants (named above) were free to merge with no constraints, their companies were far larger (adjusted for inflation) than modern companies (Carnegie built & donated nearly 3000 librairies - Rockefeller & others made similar contributions to atone for their wealth.  The sherman Antitrust Act  (1890) started a series of legislation that whipped corporations into shape, set controls on mergers, size, monopolies, yada.

But my reasons for being pro-corporation is that nearly all things that we've invented - mass production, assembly lines, right sizing, etc - is the result of properly regulated corporations. And probably eveything that you own is made by a corporation. And most of work or have worked in a corporation.  So I have none of the modern "hate all Big Corporations, hate the wealthy." 

But I very much dislike Politices-as-Usual, political-lifers in Congress.  Clueless people who have never made a Payroll making anti-business legislation. The Dodd-Frank Act of 2010 -  22000 pages.  Really? Seems like a few rules to regulate banks could have been handled in say- maybe only 100 pages? Or 1000?  What's that old rule? take the time to brief?  Trumpm OTOH, knows what Businesses want and need - and knows what is needed to provide control.  And so far, I like his policies. (In addition, he saved me $2000 on my Fed Income Taxes -    

Granted, as a GOP,  I'm more interested in Business, the Market, Commerce, Business, Law - than I am in the social issues. So my thoughts don't mesh with the Left - and that's as it should be, we need the debate.

interesting points about the early robber barons.

as for Dodd-Frank, I don't care one stitch about banks.  regulate the hell out of them.  they are more interfering and meddlesome to my business than any government entity ever has been (struggling all week to get a loan done, but that is just one of a thousand examples).

but I would rather see Glass-Steagal brought back than D-F.

[dondub]

  It would be refreshing to see Phil makes some comments about the real villain, Gramm~Leach~Bliley, than his continuous trashing of D/F which was simply in response. Could it be that because it was a Repo-Con bill that directly led to the mortgage meltdown and economic collapse that he won't touch it with a 10 foot swizzle stick?

[dezii]

Mar 5, 2019 22:26:34 GMT -5 busymom said:

Mar 5, 2019 22:11:11 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

If they are complete strangers, how would they know about this person??

     I tried to put it as politely as I could, but he's not white.  Then, if you start a conversation with him, he has an accent.  Soooooo, then he gets people making the comments I've already posted about.  It's ridiculous if you need to watch your back in this country if you happen to not have white skin.

When ones POTUS has a reputation of being a raciest it seems it somehow seems to give others who are the same regarding this feeling the green light to be more outgoing and confrontational to those they feel are not of the persuasion religion or race they prefer...just saying...a observation

[dezii]

Mar 7, 2019 11:34:52 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 6, 2019 20:31:05 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

""But the men running corporations pressed on. ...""

Yes. Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan, Sears, and others formed many small (eg 40) corporations to avoid giving up 'ownership'. Later, someone devised Trusts as a way to avoid corporations altogether.  The corp giants (named above) were free to merge with no constraints, their companies were far larger (adjusted for inflation) than modern companies (Carnegie built & donated nearly 3000 librairies - Rockefeller & others made similar contributions to atone for their wealth.  The sherman Antitrust Act  (1890) started a series of legislation that whipped corporations into shape, set controls on mergers, size, monopolies, yada.

But my reasons for being pro-corporation is that nearly all things that we've invented - mass production, assembly lines, right sizing, etc - is the result of properly regulated corporations. And probably eveything that you own is made by a corporation. And most of work or have worked in a corporation.  So I have none of the modern "hate all Big Corporations, hate the wealthy." 

But I very much dislike Politices-as-Usual, political-lifers in Congress.  Clueless people who have never made a Payroll making anti-business legislation. The Dodd-Frank Act of 2010 -  22000 pages.  Really? Seems like a few rules to regulate banks could have been handled in say- maybe only 100 pages? Or 1000?  What's that old rule? take the time to brief?  Trumpm OTOH, knows what Businesses want and need - and knows what is needed to provide control.  And so far, I like his policies. (In addition, he saved me $2000 on my Fed Income Taxes -    

Granted, as a GOP,  I'm more interested in Business, the Market, Commerce, Business, Law - than I am in the social issues. So my thoughts don't mesh with the Left - and that's as it should be, we need the debate.

interesting points about the early robber barons.

as for Dodd-Frank, I don't care one stitch about banks.  regulate the hell out of them.  they are more interfering and meddlesome to my business than any government entity ever has been (struggling all week to get a loan done, but that is just one of a thousand examples).

but I would rather see Glass-Steagal brought back than D-F.

Just wondering...regarding the 22000 [if true] pages of regulations...possible because if not all the t's crossed..i's dotted, lawyers would find openings to  get around regulations...they have done so in the very recent past that caused such financial problems for innocent gullible citizens...the country itself....

Same with time to get loans....obligation to protect the assets of the depositors and investors, the institution itself... because of recent past banking history...The ones complaining have their own issues and monetary problems, thus request for loans...both sides have different agendas thus the problems arise...just saying.

[phil5185]

The Glass-Steagal Act was 37 pages long - at least the politicians in 1932 based their legislation of quality, not quantity.  It looked like D-F just wrote until they couldn't think of anything more to say, then weighed it an signed.  (I wonder what 22000 pages weighs?)

""comments about the real villain, Gramm~Leach~Bliley, than his continuous trashing of D/F which was simply in response. ""

Wasn't Gramm~Leach~Bliley also in response - to the GS?

(My grandfather bought a 160 acre farm in 1929, put half of the money in the local bank. Just before he went to close the transaction, the bank closed - and he lost that money.  The GS Act was a few years too late for him. He was still able to borrow and close the deal, today one of his granddaughters owns it.  )

[Deleted]

Mar 6, 2019 17:50:09 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

"""Of course other people are pro- GOP for more articulated reasons, which often include some or all of the above, but also more of a coherent political philosophy which skews conservative. ""

I'm GOP - and a Trump voter.   Anti-union, pro-corporation (I'm forever surprised at the hate of corps, most people work for a corporation, depend on corps for their livelihood, their healthcare). It's almost as if our history doesn't know when/why we invented corporations and what amazing things they have done for our society. I'm pro-life (you can actually kill fullterm live babies?). I am for safety nets for the less fortunate - but I don't care for the 99 weeks of welfare while they run-out the clock. I am pro-regulation to maintain an orderly society, an orderly financial & banking system (people actually want an orderly society, they just don't realize it). But I am against the gov't over-reach that the Left Extremists propose.  Guns - I like trap guns, skeet guns, pheasant hunting, etc. And I hope someone will invent a viable gun control system - but so far, we get "register guns", ban semi-automatics, ban assault rifles, yada. We have 140 million gunowners, probably all but a few 1000 are normal, safety conscious gun owners - and most proposed laws so far punish only the 140 million and miss the few that we need to curtail? Maybe regional Laws, eg, ban all guns in Chicago where the city streets are shooting ranges after midnight?

The problem with this is the fact that the Second Amendment and the Supreme Court rulings attached, are not regionally applicable.

What the problem in Chicago that comes to mind, is that it has one of the lowest enforcement rates around as far as gun federal gun crime is concerned.

Is this the reason ?

[dondub]

Mar 7, 2019 14:07:36 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

The Glass-Steagal Act was 37 pages long - at least the politicians in 1932 based their legislation of quality, not quantity.  It looked like D-F just wrote until they couldn't think of anything more to say, then weighed it an signed.  (I wonder what 22000 pages weighs?)

""comments about the real villain, Gramm~Leach~Bliley, than his continuous trashing of D/F which was simply in response. ""

Wasn't Gramm~Leach~Bliley also in response - to the GS?

(My grandfather bought a 160 acre farm in 1929, put half of the money in the local bank. Just before he went to close the transaction, the bank closed - and he lost that money.  The GS Act was a few years too late for him. He was still able to borrow and close the deal, today one of his granddaughters owns it.  )

 Well you were presented with the opportunity and simply repeated your fallback position...D/F was just too big (regardless of it's intent and the outcomes as pertained mortgage financing).

 You can say that GLB was in response to Glass~Steagall and it was. It was Phil Gramm and his cohort trashing that excellent piece of legislation to enable the banking conglomerates and their outlaw

pals on Wall Street to commence the rapine and pillaging of our economy and subsequently that of the rest of the planet. At that point it didn't matter how many pages it was did it. Gramm, as chairman of the Senate Banking Committee led the charge to remove the obviously needed firewall G/S provided between banking brokerage, and insurance companies. I'm assuming you are aware that this led to banking, brokerage, and insurance companies swirling into the infamous septic drain called the BushCo. Crash. Imagine that!

 Yet not 1 derogatory comment about that GLB impact on the world stage. Must have had the correct number of pages....

[happyhoix]

Mar 6, 2019 20:31:05 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

""But the men running corporations pressed on. ...""

Yes. Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan, Sears, and others formed many small (eg 40) corporations to avoid giving up 'ownership'. Later, someone devised Trusts as a way to avoid corporations altogether.  The corp giants (named above) were free to merge with no constraints, their companies were far larger (adjusted for inflation) than modern companies (Carnegie built & donated nearly 3000 librairies - Rockefeller & others made similar contributions to atone for their wealth.  The sherman Antitrust Act  (1890) started a series of legislation that whipped corporations into shape, set controls on mergers, size, monopolies, yada.

But my reasons for being pro-corporation is that nearly all things that we've invented - mass production, assembly lines, right sizing, etc - is the result of properly regulated corporations. And probably eveything that you own is made by a corporation. And most of work or have worked in a corporation.  So I have none of the modern "hate all Big Corporations, hate the wealthy." 

But I very much dislike Politices-as-Usual, political-lifers in Congress.  Clueless people who have never made a Payroll making anti-business legislation. The Dodd-Frank Act of 2010 -  22000 pages.  Really? Seems like a few rules to regulate banks could have been handled in say- maybe only 100 pages? Or 1000?  What's that old rule? take the time to brief?  Trumpm OTOH, knows what Businesses want and need - and knows what is needed to provide control.  And so far, I like his policies. (In addition, he saved me $2000 on my Fed Income Taxes -    

Granted, as a GOP,  I'm more interested in Business, the Market, Commerce, Business, Law - than I am in the social issues. So my thoughts don't mesh with the Left - and that's as it should be, we need the debate.

Carnegie, along with the other robber barons, had a lot to atone for. Like the South Fork Fishing and Hunting Club, which caused the Johnstown Flood that killed over 2000 people, and the bloody Homestead strike. Donating to charities helped them justify to themselves what they did to earn that money.

And all that horribly onerous regulation on corporations, such as the Dodd Frank Act, is almost always put in place to correct some royal fuck up a corporation(s) did. Dodd-Frank came about because of the 2008 global financial crisis - perhaps you remember what a shit show that was, caused by financial risk taking by corporations like Lehman brothers.  The RCRA act for hazardous waste came about from Love Canal; the Clean Water Act when the oil storage companies caught rivers on fire. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire (146 deaths) started the development of fire codes.  Large corporations have nothing but themselves to thank for all the regulations.

The reason there is a lot of antipathy against large corporations is that they tend to screw things over and then simply go bankrupt and disappear. Look at Enron, for example - how the top brass encouraged their workers to continue to invest their retirement money in the company while they quietly sold their own stock on the side, because they knew it would soon be worthless. And I would argue there isn't any antipathy towards wealthy people - there's antipathy towards those wealthy people like Trump who screwed over a lot of smaller businesses to get where they are, and freely use tax dodges, questionable write offs and off shore accounts to avoid paying taxes. (Look at how Trump Sr manipulated accounts in order avoid paying almost all the estate taxes on his empire, when he died - that's not right or fair to the average blue collar worker who dutifully pays what owes).

 

  

[phil5185]

""Large corporations have nothing but themselves to thank for all the regulations.""

Agree. They blunder, make mistakes - and need to be held accountable. The need for corporate leaders  to improve, correct mistakes, perform clean-ups, is a work in process.  But that doesn't mean that we should openly hate all corporations, it means that we should help them to continually improve.

In post #16

I am for safety nets for the less fortunate - but I don't care for the 99 weeks of welfare while they run-out the clock. I am pro-regulation to maintain an orderly society, an orderly financial & banking system (people actually want an orderly society, they just don't realize it). But I am against the gov't over-reach that the Left Extremists propose.

[dondub]

And still no comment on GLB and it's devastating effects on our economy. Yet I can remember at least 5 Phil references to Dodd~Frank, mostly about it's size and not the intent or it's value.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 7, 2019 14:07:36 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

The Glass-Steagal Act was 37 pages long - at least the politicians in 1932 based their legislation of quality, not quantity.  It looked like D-F just wrote until they couldn't think of anything more to say, then weighed it an signed.  (I wonder what 22000 pages weighs?)

""comments about the real villain, Gramm~Leach~Bliley, than his continuous trashing of D/F which was simply in response. ""

Wasn't Gramm~Leach~Bliley also in response - to the GS?

(My grandfather bought a 160 acre farm in 1929, put half of the money in the local bank. Just before he went to close the transaction, the bank closed - and he lost that money.  The GS Act was a few years too late for him. He was still able to borrow and close the deal, today one of his granddaughters owns it.  )

paper weighs about 1 lb for every 100 sheets. so, that would be 220 lbs, or about the weight of an average congressperson.