Rand Paul..... Hypocrite

[weltschmerz]

Rand Paul, who has always been an outspoken critic of Canadian health care is having hernia surgery....in Canada.


Republican Rand Paul is one of the most vocal critics of universal health care in Congress, once equating it to “slavery.” Now the Kentucky senator has opted to have surgery at a private hospital in Canada, a nation of socialized medicine, rather than in the United States.



Paul is scheduled to have an outpatient operation at the Shouldice Hernia Hospital in Ontario later this month, according to court documents in a civil lawsuit Paul launched against his neighbor Rene Boucher.

www.newsweek.com/rand-paul-universal-healthcare-critic-gets-surgery-canada-private-hospital-1290811


Now, before anyone starts howling that it's a "private hospital", the surgery there is still available for all Canadian citizens through our single-payer system, and the province will pick up the tab.
Rand has to pay out of pocket, of course.
What, you don't do decent hernia repair in the USA?

[weltschmerz]

Paul's chief strategist, Doug Stafford, pointed to Shouldice Hospital's private status in pushing back against media reports about the senator going to Canada for treatment. "It's literally the opposite of socialized medicine," he tweeted.

www.cbc.ca/news/world/rand-paul-hernia-canada-shouldice-1.4978260

Lol!
No. It's not. Surgery for all Canadians is available there....under socialized medicine, with no out of pocket costs.

[Tennesseer]

I would guess Rand Paul must have seriously injured himself while riding a muskox and playing polo in northern Canada and is so damaged he cannot travel back to the States for surgery.  That can be the only explanation.

[NastyWoman]

He is just living true to the republican mantra of "do as I say, not as I do"

What else is new...

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 15, 2019 16:41:04 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Paul's chief strategist, Doug Stafford, pointed to Shouldice Hospital's private status in pushing back against media reports about the senator going to Canada for treatment. "It's literally the opposite of socialized medicine," he tweeted.

www.cbc.ca/news/world/rand-paul-hernia-canada-shouldice-1.4978260

Lol!
No. It's not. Surgery for all Canadians is available there....under socialized medicine, with no out of pocket costs.

I don't know his specific reasons for opposing socialized medicine, but most critics focus on wait times, lack of choice, inability to opt out, and lack of medical innovation.

This "Shouldice Hospital" is a specialty hospital for elective surgery--the only segment of our healthcare system not hampered by long wait times and staffing shortages--and we still don't know how long he had to wait to get in.

Clearly he has the ability to opt out (of payment). And since hernia repair is such a simple, routine operation, we can draw no conclusions about medical innovation.

Hence unless he's claimed that Canada is devoid of any hospital or specialist an American would elect to visit, his getting hernia surgery here isn't relevant to his criticisms of our system. Indeed he's paying out of pocket, freely, obligation-free, having sought out the best treatment centers internationally and, in this one rare instance, having found the best of the best in Canada. Exactly how a capitalist envisions healthcare working.

[weltschmerz]

Jan 15, 2019 18:27:19 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 15, 2019 16:41:04 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Paul's chief strategist, Doug Stafford, pointed to Shouldice Hospital's private status in pushing back against media reports about the senator going to Canada for treatment. "It's literally the opposite of socialized medicine," he tweeted.

www.cbc.ca/news/world/rand-paul-hernia-canada-shouldice-1.4978260

Lol!
No. It's not. Surgery for all Canadians is available there....under socialized medicine, with no out of pocket costs.

I don't know his specific reasons for opposing socialized medicine, but most critics focus on wait times, lack of choice, inability to opt out, and lack of medical innovation.

This "Shouldice Hospital" is a specialty hospital for elective surgery--the only segment of our healthcare system not hampered by long wait times and staffing shortages--and we still don't know how long he had to wait to get in.

Clearly he has the ability to opt out (of payment). And since hernia repair is such a simple, routine operation, we can draw no conclusions about medical innovation.

Hence unless he's claimed that Canada is devoid of any hospital or specialist an American would elect to visit, his getting hernia surgery here isn't relevant to his criticisms of our system. Indeed he's paying out of pocket, freely, obligation-free, having sought out the best treatment centers internationally and, in this one rare instance, having found the best of the best in Canada. Exactly how a capitalist envisions healthcare working.

....and yet, it's a hospital that's available to all citizens under their single-payer Medicare plan.
And how does he have the ability to opt out of payment? Of course he has to pay! He's not a citizen who pays into the system.

[weltschmerz]

Jan 15, 2019 18:27:19 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 15, 2019 16:41:04 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Paul's chief strategist, Doug Stafford, pointed to Shouldice Hospital's private status in pushing back against media reports about the senator going to Canada for treatment. "It's literally the opposite of socialized medicine," he tweeted.

www.cbc.ca/news/world/rand-paul-hernia-canada-shouldice-1.4978260

Lol!
No. It's not. Surgery for all Canadians is available there....under socialized medicine, with no out of pocket costs.

I don't know his specific reasons for opposing socialized medicine, but most critics focus on wait times, lack of choice, inability to opt out, and lack of medical innovation.

This "Shouldice Hospital" is a specialty hospital for elective surgery--the only segment of our healthcare system not hampered by long wait times and staffing shortages--and we still don't know how long he had to wait to get in.

Clearly he has the ability to opt out (of payment). And since hernia repair is such a simple, routine operation, we can draw no conclusions about medical innovation.

Hence unless he's claimed that Canada is devoid of any hospital or specialist an American would elect to visit, his getting hernia surgery here isn't relevant to his criticisms of our system. Indeed he's paying out of pocket, freely, obligation-free, having sought out the best treatment centers internationally and, in this one rare instance, having found the best of the best in Canada. Exactly how a capitalist envisions healthcare working.

Since it's a simple, routine operation, why can't he have it done in the USA?
He's been an outspoken critic of Canadian health care for years.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 15, 2019 18:34:49 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

....and yet, it's a hospital that's available to all citizens under their single-payer Medicare plan.
And how does he have the ability to opt out of payment? Of course he has to pay! He's not a citizen who pays into the system.

He can "opt out" because he doesn't have to pay for other people's hernia surgeries if he doesn't want to. He can go the 100% uninsured, pay-as-you-go route (which many Americans do) and pay only for the services he needs. You and I don't have this option. Furthermore, if we take good care of ourselves and/or earn higher-than-average income, both of us will surely pay in far more to our system than we take out, i.e. what Rep. Paul dramatically calls "slavery".

Since it's a simple, routine operation, why can't he have it done in the USA?
He's been an outspoken critic of Canadian health care for years.

A critic, yes. But what specifically are his criticisms?

If he's gone on record stating that Canadian medical services are categorically terrible, substandard without exception, I agree with you: he's playing the hypocrite. Otherwise, his getting hernia surgery in Canada doesn't detract from his criticisms.

If he was coming up here for treatment constantly, we could indict him on the basis that he believes the quality of Canadian healthcare is superior, if such is among his criticisms. But as it stands now, we don't even have this. The only thing we conclude is that he's deemed Canada the best option for one medical service--out of thousands. That doesn't make him a hypocrite.

Again, if you've got him on record stating that no person in their right mind would ever go to Canada for medical treatment, your case is sound. You can cement it by posting links to citations.

[weltschmerz]

While Shouldice is privately owned, it receives most of its funding from the Ontario government and accepts the Ontario’s Hospital Insurance Plan, the paper reported.

nypost.com/2019/01/14/rand-paul-heading-to-canada-for-hernia-surgery/

For a guy who compared socialized medicine to "slavery", this is the epitome of hypocrisy.
Wouldn't he be more comfortable going to a hospital where the staff are not slaves?

[thyme4change]

I wonder why the cost difference is to him. Is paying out of pocket in Canada cheaper than his co-pay?

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 15, 2019 19:50:49 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

While Shouldice is privately owned, it receives most of its funding from the Ontario government and accepts the Ontario’s Hospital Insurance Plan, the paper reported.

nypost.com/2019/01/14/rand-paul-heading-to-canada-for-hernia-surgery/

For a guy who compared socialized medicine to "slavery", this is the epitome of hypocrisy.
Wouldn't he be more comfortable going to a hospital where the staff are not slaves?

Does he call the doctors "slaves"? The patients? The taxpayers?

Does he explain the analogy? Can you quote him?

Work with us. Give us something tangible to grasp at here.

[weltschmerz]

Oh, for god's sake,Virgil!  Here.....

[weltschmerz]

....and yet he's going for treatment where the health care is "free, and everyone from the doctors to the janitors are slaves."


Now,I don't know about you, but I wouldn't go to a hospital where the staff is FORCED to work there and don't want to be there.

[thyme4change]

Jan 15, 2019 22:30:35 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oh, for god's sake,Virgil!  Here.....

What the actual fuck is wrong with politicians?. Do these smart, educated people really believe what they say, or are they just saying shit to get my mother all riled up? That statement is the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time.

[Virgil Showlion]

weltschmerz:

1. I'll take the citation without the drama or the profanity, thank you.

2. Most of the text in your meme isn't indexed by either Duck Duck Go or Google. Your image is hosted in a Google cache rather than a searchable domain. I did find at least part of the text here, attributed to Rep. Paul, hence I'll assume the quote is accurate and not taken out of context, but anonymous memes normally don't constitute valid citations.

3. One could reasonably argue that because Rep. Paul is paying out of pocket for elective surgery, his transaction has nothing to do with Canada's "free" healthcare system and therefore nothing with his moral misgivings over "free healthcare". By way of analogy, a man with moral objections to colonial slavery might see nothing wrong with hiring another man's slave for some personal work and paying the slave a fair wage under the table. It doesn't make him a hypocrite.

Having said all of this, ...

4. Rep. Paul's comments, assuming they're properly attributed and pertain to Canada's healthcare system, are over the top. It would be fair of him to say that doctors in Canada, if they want to be doctors in Canada, must ply their trade for less than fair market value, and in many cases provide services to people who otherwise wouldn't be able to pay market prices, but to call this "conscription" and "slavery" is hyperbolic. To invoke the image of police knocking down doors and forcing service at gunpoint is flat out dishonest.


Hence while I don't see a strong case for hypocrisy here, I agree with you that Rep. Paul is/was being dishonest in his representation of Canadian healthcare to the American people.

[bean29]

Jan 16, 2019 8:53:07 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jan 15, 2019 22:30:35 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oh, for god's sake,Virgil!  Here.....

What the actual fuck is wrong with politicians?. Do these smart, educated people really believe what they say, or are they just saying shit to get my mother all riled up? That statement is the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time.

That was pretty much my reaction too.

[weltschmerz]

"1. I'll take the citation without the drama or the profanity, thank you."


What profanity?

Furthermore, I was a nurse for 40 years, and I never felt like a slave.
I wouldn't have surgery where people are "slaves", from the doctors to the anaesthesiologists to the nurses". Slaves don't do their best work. Why is Rand Paul?

[weltschmerz]

While Shouldice is a for-profit clinic, it’s very much a part of the Canadian healthcare system. As the National Post wrote in 2012, the government of the province of Ontario “still pays for thousands of patients a year to get operations there at taxpayers’ expense,” and that it “receives yearly funding from the province, and medicare fees for services offered by its doctors.”



Apart from this, however, the fact remains that Paul—an ophthalmologist by trade who once compared the right to healthcare to slavery—is going to another country where healthcare for everyone is guaranteed and funded by the government via a program called Medicare, in order to get better quality care than he would have here in the United States, which has a Frankenstein-like monstrosity of a healthcare system that still leaves tens of millions uninsured.

splinternews.com/free-market-boner-rand-paul-is-getting-hernia-surgery-i-1831742735

[Tiny]

Jan 16, 2019 14:10:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

"1. I'll take the citation without the drama or the profanity, thank you."


What profanity?

Furthermore, I was a nurse for 40 years, and I never felt like a slave.
I wouldn't have surgery where people are "slaves", from the doctors to the anaesthesiologists to the nurses". Slaves don't do their best work. Why is Rand Paul?

LOL!   I translated welt's lower case "for god's sake" into  "for the Great Cat Goddess's sake" or perhaps "for Odin's sake"  (I'm reading American Gods)  or perhaps worse "for Cthulhu's sake" even though I suspect Cthulhu could care less.   

Perhaps Welt had some other god in mind  don't know.   

Perhaps Virgil translated it to mean his God's sake?  Which could be deemed a profanity.        
 

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 16, 2019 14:10:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

"1. I'll take the citation without the drama or the profanity, thank you."


What profanity?

Furthermore, I was a nurse for 40 years, and I never felt like a slave.
I wouldn't have surgery where people are "slaves", from the doctors to the anaesthesiologists to the nurses". Slaves don't do their best work. Why is Rand Paul?

'Profanity' refers to expressions like "...for God's sake", "What in God's name...", "Jesus Christ! ..." and the like that you often include in your replies to my posts.

As a courtesy to me, if we're not in the middle of a knock-down-drag-out out hostile debate--which is the case in this thread--I'd appreciate it if you could refrain from doing this. Likewise for the 'fucks', 'assholes', etc. (you're not a habitual abuser in this case) that simply muddy discourse.

As for your claim "I wouldn't have surgery where people are 'slaves'": is this in fact true? Is it true of other businesses? For example, would you never pay a Chinese man (residing in China) a fair wage to make you a pair of shoes because he and most other shoemakers there work in slavery-like conditions in sweatshops?

My point being that hiring the people who work in a system you believe to be unfair, paying them fair wages, doesn't necessarily undermine your indictment of that system. Indeed if we looked at our own lives--the amount of business we do with people and businesses in countries whose policies we abhor--we'd find it impossible to avoid such ethical conflicts.

In Rep. Paul's case, based on his "slavery" claim, hypocrisy would be if he was accepting treatment from a Canadian doctor at a price lower than its free market value. Perhaps this is the case, but my take on Shouldice Hospital is that they charge market rates for non-residents. If so, then Paul's getting treatment there is wholly divorced from the specific factor he's claimed makes our healthcare "slavery", and the case for hypocrisy doesn't stand. You can't reasonably lump every aspect of our healthcare system into a single bloc and claim that because he hates certain aspects of it, he can't avail himself of any part of it independently of those aspects.

[steff]

Well we all knew that the lectures about what we do or don't say here would be back.  And they are.  

[weltschmerz]

Jan 16, 2019 15:22:33 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 16, 2019 14:10:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

"1. I'll take the citation without the drama or the profanity, thank you."


What profanity?

Furthermore, I was a nurse for 40 years, and I never felt like a slave.
I wouldn't have surgery where people are "slaves", from the doctors to the anaesthesiologists to the nurses". Slaves don't do their best work. Why is Rand Paul?

'Profanity' refers to expressions like "...for God's sake", "What in God's name...", "Jesus Christ! ..." and the like that you often include in your replies to my posts.

As a courtesy to me, if we're not in the middle of a knock-down-drag-out out hostile debate--which is the case in this thread--I'd appreciate it if you could refrain from doing this. Likewise for the 'fucks', 'assholes', etc. (you're not a habitual abuser in this case) that simply muddy discourse.

As for your claim "I wouldn't have surgery where people are 'slaves'": is this in fact true? Is it true of other businesses? For example, would you never pay a Chinese man (residing in China) a fair wage to make you a pair of shoes because he and most other shoemakers there work in slavery-like conditions in sweatshops?

My point being that hiring the people who work in a system you believe to be unfair, paying them fair wages, doesn't necessarily undermine your indictment of that system. Indeed if we looked at our own lives--the amount of business we do with people and businesses in countries whose policies we abhor--we'd find it impossible to avoid such ethical conflicts.

In Rep. Paul's case, based on his "slavery" claim, hypocrisy would be if he was accepting treatment from a Canadian doctor at a price lower than its free market value. Perhaps this is the case, but my take on Shouldice Hospital is that they charge market rates for non-residents. If so, then Paul's getting treatment there is wholly divorced from the specific factor he's claimed makes our healthcare "slavery", and the case for hypocrisy doesn't stand. You can't reasonably lump every aspect of our healthcare system into a single bloc and claim that because he hates certain aspects of it, he can't avail himself of any part of it independently of those aspects.

Look, just because you belong to some weird Jesus cult, doesn't mean I have to mind my Ps and Qs.
It's like a Jewish person telling me not to eat pork chops because THEY keep kosher.
If my "profanity" offends you so much, feel free to put me on ignore.

[Virgil Showlion]

You sound like a certain world leader.

In any case, in replies #7, #14 and #19 you have my full counterargument to the OP.

[weltschmerz]

Jan 16, 2019 18:55:36 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

You sound like a certain world leader.

In any case, in replies #7, #14 and #19 you have my full counterargument to the OP.

Just put me on ignore....we'll both be happier.

[weltschmerz]

I'm watching To Hell And Back.
Gordon Ramsay just said "Oh my Lord!", and "Oh my God!"
Virgil, you should send him a strongly-worded email, voicing your displeasure.

[Cookies Galore]

Jan 16, 2019 20:10:29 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I'm watching To Hell And Back.
Gordon Ramsey just said "Oh my Lord!", and "Oh my God!"
Virgil, you should send him a strongly-worded email, voicing your displeasure.

Fucking right! 😉

[thyme4change]

Jan 16, 2019 16:54:47 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jan 16, 2019 15:22:33 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

'Profanity' refers to expressions like "...for God's sake", "What in God's name...", "Jesus Christ! ..." and the like that you often include in your replies to my posts.

As a courtesy to me, if we're not in the middle of a knock-down-drag-out out hostile debate--which is the case in this thread--I'd appreciate it if you could refrain from doing this. Likewise for the 'fucks', 'assholes', etc. (you're not a habitual abuser in this case) that simply muddy discourse.

As for your claim "I wouldn't have surgery where people are 'slaves'": is this in fact true? Is it true of other businesses? For example, would you never pay a Chinese man (residing in China) a fair wage to make you a pair of shoes because he and most other shoemakers there work in slavery-like conditions in sweatshops?

My point being that hiring the people who work in a system you believe to be unfair, paying them fair wages, doesn't necessarily undermine your indictment of that system. Indeed if we looked at our own lives--the amount of business we do with people and businesses in countries whose policies we abhor--we'd find it impossible to avoid such ethical conflicts.

In Rep. Paul's case, based on his "slavery" claim, hypocrisy would be if he was accepting treatment from a Canadian doctor at a price lower than its free market value. Perhaps this is the case, but my take on Shouldice Hospital is that they charge market rates for non-residents. If so, then Paul's getting treatment there is wholly divorced from the specific factor he's claimed makes our healthcare "slavery", and the case for hypocrisy doesn't stand. You can't reasonably lump every aspect of our healthcare system into a single bloc and claim that because he hates certain aspects of it, he can't avail himself of any part of it independently of those aspects.

Look, just because you belong to some weird Jesus cult, doesn't mean I have to mind my Ps and Qs.
It's like a Jewish person telling me not to eat pork chops because THEY keep kosher.
If my "profanity" offends you so much, feel free to put me on ignore.

Out of respect, when I am around people of faith that are bothered by it, I temper my language. However, respect has to be earned, and the way virgil treats people dictates how accommodating we should be, God damn it.

[swamp]

Jan 16, 2019 15:22:33 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 16, 2019 14:10:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

"1. I'll take the citation without the drama or the profanity, thank you."


What profanity?

Furthermore, I was a nurse for 40 years, and I never felt like a slave.
I wouldn't have surgery where people are "slaves", from the doctors to the anaesthesiologists to the nurses". Slaves don't do their best work. Why is Rand Paul?

'Profanity' refers to expressions like "...for God's sake", "What in God's name...", "Jesus Christ! ..." and the like that you often include in your replies to my posts.

As a courtesy to me, if we're not in the middle of a knock-down-drag-out out hostile debate--which is the case in this thread--I'd appreciate it if you could refrain from doing this. Likewise for the 'fucks', 'assholes', etc. (you're not a habitual abuser in this case) that simply muddy discourse.

As for your claim "I wouldn't have surgery where people are 'slaves'": is this in fact true? Is it true of other businesses? For example, would you never pay a Chinese man (residing in China) a fair wage to make you a pair of shoes because he and most other shoemakers there work in slavery-like conditions in sweatshops?

My point being that hiring the people who work in a system you believe to be unfair, paying them fair wages, doesn't necessarily undermine your indictment of that system. Indeed if we looked at our own lives--the amount of business we do with people and businesses in countries whose policies we abhor--we'd find it impossible to avoid such ethical conflicts.

In Rep. Paul's case, based on his "slavery" claim, hypocrisy would be if he was accepting treatment from a Canadian doctor at a price lower than its free market value. Perhaps this is the case, but my take on Shouldice Hospital is that they charge market rates for non-residents. If so, then Paul's getting treatment there is wholly divorced from the specific factor he's claimed makes our healthcare "slavery", and the case for hypocrisy doesn't stand. You can't reasonably lump every aspect of our healthcare system into a single bloc and claim that because he hates certain aspects of it, he can't avail himself of any part of it independently of those aspects.

I bet you're fun at parties.  

[mroped]

Thanks God that it wasn’t a liberal senator or representative going to Canada for surgery because we would’ve had a shitstorm of complaints and what nots from all Breitbart, Turning Point, Conservative Tree House and undoubtedly from our fellow Canadian Conservative Virgil!
As it were, it is just excersizing one’s right to free choice, take advantage of the free market(or enslaving some doctors and nurses to toil endlessly for the well being of those in power🙈)

[tbop77]

You have to remember, health insurers tell the insured what doctors and hospital's they can go to. When I first read about it, that was my first thought. Maybe none of the doctors in his network were good enough for him. And because he has health insurance paid for by us, he can afford to go to Canada. The rest of us who are trying to cobble together enough to afford our insurance and his, would go to the doctor that our insurance company told us we could to go. After it was pre-authorized....by the insurance company.