djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 17, 2018 10:43:37 GMT -5
summarizing the above (from memory): universal healthcare, $1T infrastructure, NAFTA renegotiaion..... the president promised you guys a lot of stuff, and has not delivered. how will you reward him in 2020?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on May 17, 2018 10:45:50 GMT -5
Brown noses?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on May 17, 2018 10:49:26 GMT -5
Afterall...
-The evangelicals don't care about his moral turpitude -The fiscal responsibles don't care about the massive deficit creation -The family values clique couldn't care less that he fucked a porn star while Melania was nursing -The regular Christians don't care that he is a serial liar |
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 17, 2018 11:04:18 GMT -5
I think right now the rank and file Trumpettes feel like Trump is being picked on by mean people.
However, as the sleazy self enrichment schemes Trump friends and family have spun continue to get exposed, I think that might be what finally discourages them.
It's one thing to believe in a guy you think is a scrappy populist underdog fighting against a corrupt establishment, but when that scrappy populist underdog is exposed to be nothing more than a grifter more intent on self enrichment than actually helping the middle class, he'll lose them.
Might take them a while to find out about it, though. Fox news isn't publicizing any of Trump's cash making schemes yet. If Fox turns against Trump, he's toast for sure.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 17, 2018 12:33:58 GMT -5
... Might take them a while to find out about it, though. Fox news isn't publicizing any of Trump's cash making schemes yet. If Fox turns against Trump, he's toast for sure. "(T)urns against"? Hell, simple honest reporting should do the trick with enough people to cause a problem for him in 2020. Though there will be plenty who will see it as an unfair attack on their hero and stay with him. |
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 17, 2018 13:01:35 GMT -5
It's one thing to believe in a guy you think is a scrappy populist underdog fighting against a corrupt establishment, but when that scrappy populist underdog is exposed to be nothing more than a grifter more intent on self enrichment than actually helping the middle class, he'll lose them.
Unless the support is more about maintaining the white male christian status quo than anything else, as that article/thread suggested a few weeks ago. It's an intriguing concept. While by no means laudatory, it's at least logical. Because elsewise, their continued devotion is just idiocy. |
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on May 17, 2018 13:14:45 GMT -5
Afterall...
-The evangelicals don't care about his moral turpitude -The fiscal responsibles don't care about the massive deficit creation -The family values clique couldn't care less that he fucked a porn star while Melania was nursing -The regular Christians don't care that he is a serial liar The fact that republicans call themselves financially conservative is a complete and utter joke. The only consistency I have found in the republican party when it comes to being financially conservative is making sure that those lazy poor people don't get any money. Screw the deficit...they don't care as long as it isn't benefiting someone they deem undeserving. |
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 17, 2018 22:50:13 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 17, 2018 23:03:06 GMT -5
you guys are off topic. but truly, i don't know how anyone can respond to the above. it seems to me that these populist policies have little to do with his election. i find that disturbing.
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tbop77
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Post by tbop77 on May 18, 2018 5:46:07 GMT -5
The conservatives passed their tax cut for corporations and the wealthy. All they need to do now is start a war and their time with the majority in government will be complete. btw, I had to laugh last month when Amazon raised their prices. I really believed after the tax cut they would lower them....since as always stated "consumers pay the taxes." Thought that would just trickle on down!  |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 18, 2018 8:55:44 GMT -5
The conservatives passed their tax cut for corporations and the wealthy. All they need to do now is start a war and their time with the majority in government will be complete. btw, I had to laugh last month when Amazon raised their prices. I really believed after the tax cut they would lower them....since as always stated "consumers pay the taxes." Thought that would just trickle on down! yeah, but that was not a populist position. i am trying to figure out how the 40% think that anything he has done actually helps them.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 18, 2018 9:02:43 GMT -5
The conservatives passed their tax cut for corporations and the wealthy. All they need to do now is start a war and their time with the majority in government will be complete. btw, I had to laugh last month when Amazon raised their prices. I really believed after the tax cut they would lower them....since as always stated "consumers pay the taxes." Thought that would just trickle on down! That is really the nut of it right there. Every Republican administration since Ford has been all about cutting taxes for the rich, dismantling the safety net and SSI, and grossly enlarging the military industrial complex. These three policies are repeated over and over again. All of the populist propaganda is just so much BS for the masses. The above goals are what they stand for. Period. And they threw in 'anti-abortion' to appeal to the evangelicals, even though the GOP politicians sometimes behave in ways very contrary to their anti-abortion stance. For instance, the TN politician who ran on 'family values' who paid for his GF to get an abortion. (He recently got re-elected, I believe). They know the right dog whistles to use about race, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, anti-Muslim and anti-gay policies to cynically lure in certain segments of the voting public in order to have the votes to advance the core principals summarized by demi above. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 18, 2018 9:10:05 GMT -5
at this point, i am not at all convinced that policy had much to do with the POtuS winning. i really DO think it was the language of the campaign, the image of it, and the fact that it was standing athwart history.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 18, 2018 9:18:11 GMT -5
That is really the nut of it right there. Every Republican administration since Ford has been all about cutting taxes for the rich, dismantling the safety net and SSI, and grossly enlarging the military industrial complex. These three policies are repeated over and over again. All of the populist propaganda is just so much BS for the masses. The above goals are what they stand for. Period. And they threw in 'anti-abortion' to appeal to the evangelicals, even though the GOP politicians sometimes behave in ways very contrary to their anti-abortion stance. For instance, the TN politician who ran on 'family values' who paid for his GF to get an abortion. (He recently got re-elected, I believe). They know the right dog whistles to use about race, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, anti-Muslim and anti-gay policies to cynically lure in certain segments of the voting public in order to have the votes to advance the core principals summarized by demi above. I just started a thread on the religous board titled 'The Four Horsemen of evangelical hypocrisy: How they whitewashed Donald Trump'. Interesting article. link |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 18, 2018 9:36:43 GMT -5
at this point, i am not at all convinced that policy had much to do with the POtuS winning. i really DO think it was the language of the campaign, the image of it, and the fact that it was standing athwart history. Which is both sad and deeply disturbing. Like a neighbor asked me rhetorically, who are these fellow Americans? it is. it also presents a serious problem for Democrats. i doubt i have to explain that to you, but i will toss down for those who don't understand that comment. if your opponent (or, in this case, the opposing party) is running on "we will turn back the hands of time to an era when society was well ordered and run by white folks" (note: this is not explicit in the opposition platform- it is the messaging and image of the platform), what do you say to oppose that? especially given that that message was SUCCESSFUL in the last election? furthermore, i am not sure this trend has played out. i see nationalism winning all over the globe. people thirst for some sense of "security" in their nationality and national identity. progressives have been promoting the idea of a big happy planet for decades, but if we are fundamentally a tribal people, that is a losing strategy.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on May 18, 2018 10:06:06 GMT -5
Which is both sad and deeply disturbing. Like a neighbor asked me rhetorically, who are these fellow Americans? it is. it also presents a serious problem for Democrats. i doubt i have to explain that to you, but i will toss down for those who don't understand that comment. if your opponent (or, in this case, the opposing party) is running on "we will turn back the hands of time to an era when society was well ordered and run by white folks" (note: this is not explicit in the opposition platform- it is the messaging and image of the platform), what do you say to oppose that? especially given that that message was SUCCESSFUL in the last election? furthermore, i am not sure this trend has played out. i see nationalism winning all over the globe. people thirst for some sense of "security" in their nationality and national identity. progressives have been promoting the idea of a big happy planet for decades, but if we are fundamentally a tribal people, that is a losing strategy.
True, but we are still talking about a nation that picked Obama TWICE. I still feel like the people that "want to turn back the hands of time" are in the minority. The media and Trump did an absolutely fabulous job of making people hate Hillary. They hated Hillary more than they hated Trump. This election seemed to the "who do we hate less" election. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 18, 2018 10:17:49 GMT -5
deminmaine : i apologize if i seemed to be saying that "the situation is hopeless". i don't think it is. i am simply asking what messaging Democrats will use. i think you and movingforward point to it. you can have an inclusive national identity. it is just a way harder thing to do than an exclusive one. i think the message might be something like pointing out the inherent danger of minority nationalism. i don't mean minority in the traditional sense here. white folks are the majority here. but the group that is actually fighting for "us" is quite a bit smaller. it is a combination of young, white uneducated folks with little hope or prospects for a future, and older white folks who fear for our future. in fact, that is the thing in common- they fear for THEIR future, and those of their progeny, in both cases. perhaps pointing out to them that Democrats care about the future of ALL Americans would be enough to win some of those voters back? but i fear that we are going to lose about 20% of the US voting public in the next few election cycles, and that they are going to get increasingly nasty about losing. and yeah, i don't really care PERSONALLY. i will be feet up on the table in some 400 year old stone house with a Mediterranean view. but my son, my sister, my nephew, and 10 generations of my family will be resting here. and yeah, i care about that.
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mollyanna58
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Post by mollyanna58 on May 18, 2018 10:53:35 GMT -5
I was checking a dog adoption application yesterday. I generally look at the person's Facebook page to see if there is anything contradictory or awful, like pictures of the person dangling a dog on a choke collar. This particular person is an avid Trump supporter. There are reverential photo memes of him, thanking God for this wonderful President; and memes demeaning "leftists" who don't know how good things are because of Trump. I think it will take a lot to make her change her mind.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 18, 2018 11:18:27 GMT -5
I was checking a dog adoption application yesterday. I generally look at the person's Facebook page to see if there is anything contradictory or awful, like pictures of the person dangling a dog on a choke collar. This particular person is an avid Trump supporter. There are reverential photo memes of him, thanking God for this wonderful President; and memes demeaning "leftists" who don't know how good things are because of Trump. I think it will take a lot to make her change her mind. You could be describing my SIL, who is a wonderful person, and who is also a very avid Trump fan who ignores any news that does not come from Fox or Rush. Everything not from those two sources are liberal lies, according to her.
What will get her to change her mind is if Fox turns on Trump, or at least, stops promoting Trump, which might happen if a blatant scandal emerges. Fox News is actually a news program, and some of their anchors have spoken out against Trump when he's done some really shitty things. I don't know if the Fox talking heads would ever actually turn against Trump, but if the scandal was obvious enough, and bad enough, I can see them replacing Pence as their star player, and suggesting (for the good of the country) that Trump step down. Then and only then would my SIL believe that Trump was less than a messiah for the middle class white folks like her.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 18, 2018 11:35:53 GMT -5
at this point, i am not at all convinced that policy had much to do with the POtuS winning. i really DO think it was the language of the campaign, the image of it, and the fact that it was standing athwart history. It was an appeal to fear, and nothing to do with policies. "Muslims! Rapists! Criminals! America is falling apart! Only I can fix it!" |
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 18, 2018 11:43:03 GMT -5
If you can reprogram people after being in cults, we can change people. It just has to be a slow thing. First, their idols and info providers (Fox news) have to subtly start to acknowledge Trump's flaws and missteps. They have to slowly introduce competing ideas - which can still be "conservative" at heart, but just come at them from a different slant. Then they have to respect people who dare speak against some of Trump's ideas. They can still be conservative people, like Jeff Flake. And then have thoughtful debates between 2 conservative approaches to a situation.
Can they make money doing that? If not, they won't bother.
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tbop77
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Post by tbop77 on May 18, 2018 15:59:06 GMT -5
The conservatives passed their tax cut for corporations and the wealthy. All they need to do now is start a war and their time with the majority in government will be complete. btw, I had to laugh last month when Amazon raised their prices. I really believed after the tax cut they would lower them....since as always stated "consumers pay the taxes." Thought that would just trickle on down! yeah, but that was not a populist position. i am trying to figure out how the 40% think that anything he has done actually helps them.
Please don't waste too much time trying to figure that out. I have long since realized the 40% don't "think" at all. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 18, 2018 19:40:19 GMT -5
If you can reprogram people after being in cults, we can change people. It just has to be a slow thing. First, their idols and info providers (Fox news) have to subtly start to acknowledge Trump's flaws and missteps. They have to slowly introduce competing ideas - which can still be "conservative" at heart, but just come at them from a different slant. Then they have to respect people who dare speak against some of Trump's ideas. They can still be conservative people, like Jeff Flake. And then have thoughtful debates between 2 conservative approaches to a situation. Can they make money doing that? If not, they won't bother. very few people know this history outside of the fringe right, but there was once a very robust conservative intellectualism, and it LOATHED the reactionary right. so, it systematically suppressed it to keep it OUT of public life. the fear was that something like THIS (what happened) would happen. the center of the intellectual right was the National Review. it marginalized the radical right (like the John Birch Society) and prevented them from having access to public life. however, the internet broke this down, and finally the intellectual right was overthrown in the late '90's (you can read about this in an article called "Confounding Fathers", if you are interested). i don't have anything good to say about the "New Right", so i will stop right there. |
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 19, 2018 10:04:03 GMT -5
If you can reprogram people after being in cults, we can change people. It just has to be a slow thing. First, their idols and info providers (Fox news) have to subtly start to acknowledge Trump's flaws and missteps. They have to slowly introduce competing ideas - which can still be "conservative" at heart, but just come at them from a different slant. Then they have to respect people who dare speak against some of Trump's ideas. They can still be conservative people, like Jeff Flake. And then have thoughtful debates between 2 conservative approaches to a situation. Can they make money doing that? If not, they won't bother. very few people know this history outside of the fringe right, but there was once a very robust conservative intellectualism, and it LOATHED the reactionary right. so, it systematically suppressed it to keep it OUT of public life. the fear was that something like THIS (what happened) would happen. the center of the intellectual right was the National Review. it marginalized the radical right (like the John Birch Society) and prevented them from having access to public life. however, the internet broke this down, and finally the intellectual right was overthrown in the late '90's (you can read about this in an article called "Confounding Fathers", if you are interested). i don't have anything good to say about the "New Right", so i will stop right there. I thought the intellectual right started falling apart when the Christian Right started taking power. They used "God said so" to steer the party. |
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 19, 2018 10:19:12 GMT -5
very few people know this history outside of the fringe right, but there was once a very robust conservative intellectualism, and it LOATHED the reactionary right. so, it systematically suppressed it to keep it OUT of public life. the fear was that something like THIS (what happened) would happen. the center of the intellectual right was the National Review. it marginalized the radical right (like the John Birch Society) and prevented them from having access to public life. however, the internet broke this down, and finally the intellectual right was overthrown in the late '90's (you can read about this in an article called "Confounding Fathers", if you are interested). i don't have anything good to say about the "New Right", so i will stop right there. I thought the intellectual right started falling apart when the Christian Right started taking power. They used "God said so" to steer the party. I prefer to call it the Religious Right rather than the Christian Right. There is nothing Christian about them. And unfortunately, they try to steer us away from both truth and American values. We were far better off before when things like individual liberties mattered. |
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Post by Shooby on May 19, 2018 10:20:58 GMT -5
Wait, I thought Trump was a closet liberal so then why don't you love him? Or, isn't he?
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on May 19, 2018 10:24:55 GMT -5
Trump is a Narcissist. He'll tell you anything to be admired.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 19, 2018 10:28:20 GMT -5
Wait, I thought Trump was a closet liberal so then why don't you love him? Or, isn't he? Trump is a con man. Falling for him is your guys' thing. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 19, 2018 13:06:53 GMT -5
Wait, I thought Trump was a closet liberal so then why don't you love him? Or, isn't he? dumbass is a rudderless tool. you'd have to be crazy to think he would give you any sort of principled performance in office, which is why no sensible person- liberal or otherwise- would consider him. edit: unless your idea is to destroy the institution of government in the US. then it is perfectly rational.  |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 19, 2018 13:10:19 GMT -5
very few people know this history outside of the fringe right, but there was once a very robust conservative intellectualism, and it LOATHED the reactionary right. so, it systematically suppressed it to keep it OUT of public life. the fear was that something like THIS (what happened) would happen. the center of the intellectual right was the National Review. it marginalized the radical right (like the John Birch Society) and prevented them from having access to public life. however, the internet broke this down, and finally the intellectual right was overthrown in the late '90's (you can read about this in an article called "Confounding Fathers", if you are interested). i don't have anything good to say about the "New Right", so i will stop right there. I thought the intellectual right started falling apart when the Christian Right started taking power. They used "God said so" to steer the party. that timing is probably pretty accurate. but neoconservatives had been working on this idea for a while before this. the marriage to the religious right just made it possible. it was actually a perfect match in one sense: neoconservatives were very concerned that we had lost our national identity, and the Christian right provided a "way of thinking" that was very much in line with this idea. |
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